Hello I think I have a problem about doctrine.

Raggedcloth · Jan 28, 2023

I'm not very active here I don't know what various believers here believe. I don't mind differences in the jots and tittles, such as dunking versus sprinkling, the various eschatologies for the most part, who reads which Bible for the most part, and I don't divide with believers about some of the heavier things such as the preservation of the saints. But what does bug me is when rightness-with-God through works creeps in to teachings. So I really hope I don't offend any reader's sensibilities, and I will refuse to joust with anyone over this, but I must ask about Joyce Meyer. It turns out that influential people in my church follow her. To me the wellspring of her preaching flows from her belief that God blessed Abraham because of Abraham's obedience, and spins it out to mean that for every believer who is in want, it is essentially a matter of lack of obedience and we better get our acts straight before God can bless us. Please let me state the way I see this: before Abraham obeyed, God told him to leave his people and his land and go to a strange Land where God will bless him and multiply him into many nations. Then, when Abraham's hand was raised and about to come down, God restrained him, provided a sacrifice, and continued to keep his promises to Abraham. Whenever I think deeply enough about that I just melt because it's a story about me and how God unilaterally moved me out of the world into a new place of various kinds of richness and peace and a certain knowledge that God will never leave me nor forsake me not even through the death of my body, which by the way is dying and in pain, and I see no conditions placed on that promise. I'm still on the precipice when it comes to the question of whether, when God called me, (and he did, one day 35 yrs ago while I was in a 2 1/2 hour commute, through radio ministries), whether I obeyed His call by my own human will or I was drawn by God's irresistible grace. It sure seems like I responded immediately to His grace snd the presence of His Person.
Actually I tend to think it may be an improper question and only God really knows what happens right there. So to finish, maybe some people can please advise me on what to do about this discovery of possible works related righteousness in dome of the main thinkers in my church? I do know that kind words are better than wrath, and that no one is unwillingly taught. At least I've learned that by now. TY.

Ted01 · Jan 28, 2023

Raggedcloth said:

I'm not very active here I don't know what various believers here believe. I don't mind differences in the jots and tittles, such as dunking versus sprinkling, the various eschatologies for the most part, who reads which Bible for the most part, and I don't divide with believers about some of the heavier things such as the preservation of the saints. But what does bug me is when rightness-with-God through works creeps in to teachings. So I really hope I don't offend any reader's sensibilities, and I will refuse to joust with anyone over this, but I must ask about Joyce Meyer. It turns out that influential people in my church follow her. To me the wellspring of her preaching flows from her belief that God blessed Abraham because of Abraham's obedience, and spins it out to mean that for every believer who is in want, it is essentially a matter of lack of obedience and we better get our acts straight before God can bless us. Please let me state the way I see this: before Abraham obeyed, God told him to leave his people and his land and go to a strange Land where God will bless him and multiply him into many nations. Then, when Abraham's hand was raised and about to come down, God restrained him, provided a sacrifice, and continued to keep his promises to Abraham. Whenever I think deeply enough about that I just melt because it's a story about me and how God unilaterally moved me out of the world into a new place of various kinds of richness and peace and a certain knowledge that God will never leave me nor forsake me not even through the death of my body, which by the way is dying and in pain, and I see no conditions placed on that promise. I'm still on the precipice when it comes to the question of whether, when God called me, (and he did, one day 35 yrs ago while I was in a 2 1/2 hour commute, through radio ministries), whether I obeyed His call by my own human will or I was drawn by God's irresistible grace. It sure seems like I responded immediately to His grace snd the presence of His Person.
Actually I tend to think it may be an improper question and only God really knows what happens right there. So to finish, maybe some people can please advise me on what to do about this discovery of possible works related righteousness in dome of the main thinkers in my church? I do know that kind words are better than wrath, and that no one is unwillingly taught. At least I've learned that by now. TY.

Hi Ragged,

I can't talk much right now, but wanted to let you know that I think that you're on the right path!

Abraham was counted as Righteous by God, years before he tried to offer up Issaac as a sacrifice. (Gen. 15:6 & Rom. 4:3).

There are many here that believe as Joyce Meyer does, they mean well... but I disagree with them on this subject.

Stay strong in your Faith and trust God to keep you strong.

Magenta · Jan 28, 2023

Welcome!

Christmas 2022

ResidentAlien · Jan 28, 2023

Obedience is important but it's obedience to God not obedience to shysters that He's looking for. Obedience to God isn't the same things as trying to earn salvation. Good works can't earn us points with God but He does test us to strengthen our faith. It's unfortunate that this distinction has been lost for so many.

When it comes to Joyce Meyer, when she says "obedience" you can replace that with "give money to my ministry." I remember finding out my mother was a Joel Osteen fan; I was flabbergasted. Many people who aren't firmly grounded in God's word have fallen for celebrities like Meyer and Osteen.

As for what you should do about your discovery that people in your congregation follow Joyce Meyer, I really don't know. Like with my mother, I'm sure you'll see them in a different light. You might just wait for the subject to come up and casually ask if they think she might be teaching a works-based righteousness. They'll probably either respond by giving you their thoughts on the matter or asking why you ask. If the former, just listen and try to understand their point of view and then mull it over. At least this way you'll know where they're coming from. But be ready for the latter response by having a couple of examples you can give that make you feel like Meyer teaches works-based salvation.

Magenta · Jan 28, 2023

Raggedcloth said:

I am with you on your sentiments toward only God having a full and proper understanding of this. He knows our hearts, and the circumstances of our lives, and understands us better than we do our own selves. As to the five points of Calvinism, debates endlessly rage over this, and many are falsely accused of being Calvinists if they even so much as lean in a direction that suggests to others that they accept even one of the five points, even though a single point (at least, and this is just a "for instance") is accepted across the majority of Christendom. Recently a number of members were vehemently denying this point as I was explaining the definition of it, and though they continued to kick and scream and deny the point, they almost all eventually did say they believed the essence of the point, and its true meaning. Go figure. Such is life on a discussion board

notonmywatch · Jan 28, 2023

Hi, Raggedcloth.

I'm definitely not a man-pleaser, so here are my thoughts on the matter.

First of all, I am DEFINITELY NOT a fan of Joyce Meyer in any way, shape, or form. I determined her to be a false teacher a long time ago, and that determination has never changed.

That said, it doesn't mean that there isn't any truth to what she said (according to your testimony here) about Abraham's obedience.

James said (even though people don't like to hear it):

James 2

14What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him? 15If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food, 16And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit? 17Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone. 18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works. 19Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble. 20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead? 21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? 22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect? 23And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God. 24Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only. 25Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way? 26For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

"The scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness" (Genesis 15:6) "WHEN he", Abraham, "had offered Isaac his son upon the altar" or WHEN he sought to do so in OBEDIENCE to what God had commanded him to do. God had previously told Abraham that "in Isaac shall thy seed be called" (Genesis 21:12) or that Jesus, who is Abraham's seed, would come through the descendancy or lineage of Isaac. God tested Abraham's faith in order to see whether or not Abraham truly believed him or had faith in what he had told him, and it wasn't until Abraham had corresponding works or actions to back up what he professed to believe in that this scripture pertaining to Abraham's righteousness by faith was fulfilled. This is a biblical truth whether anybody likes it or not. Faith without works or corresponding actions that align themselves with what we profess to believe is as DEAD as the body without the spirit is.

Let's bring this to our current day and age.

Here's a quick litmus test for all of us.

Who here believes the following?

2 Peter 3

10But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. 11Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness, 12Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat? 13Nevertheless we, according to his promise, look for new heavens and a new earth, wherein dwelleth righteousness.

Do we really believe that the present "heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat", and that "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"? Do our lifestyles, or actions, or works truly align themselves with such a professed belief? Are we truly living like strangers and pilgrims who are passing the time of our sojourning here in fear, or are we so rooted and grounded in the affairs of this present evil world that we're basically useless or not meet for the master's use?

I'll leave that question for everyone here to answer for themselves.

Whatever answer anybody comes up with, faith without works or corresponding actions IS DEAD.

Not because I say so, but because God's word says so.

If our actions or our works don't align themselves with that which we profess to believe in, then our faith is no better than the faith of demons, and we'd all be wise to recognize and embrace such a biblical truth.

Magenta · Jan 28, 2023

notonmywatch said:

Do we really believe that the present "heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat", and that "the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up"? Do our lifestyles, or actions, or works truly align themselves with such a professed belief? Are we truly living like strangers and pilgrims who are passing the time of our sojourning here in fear, or are we so rooted and grounded in the affairs of this present evil world that we're basically useless or not meet for the master's use?

Hebrews 13:14

notonmywatch · Jan 28, 2023

Magenta said:

I definitely agree that this world, in its present condition or state, is not our home, but I don't believe that our everlasting home is in heaven. The meek, ultimately, shall inherit the earth or, more specifically, a new heavens and a new earth, and the New Jerusalem which will come down out of heaven to this earth. That will be our everlasting home should we all find entrance therein through Christ.

Magenta · Jan 28, 2023

notonmywatch said:

I agree... although heaven is God's abode, and He will make His dwelling with us in/on the new Earth. Otherwise, I just
now looked to see which translation that is = The Living Bible. I will change it

Thank you for pointing that out...

notonmywatch · Jan 28, 2023

Magenta said:

Thank you for being willing to make the change, and for being so gracious.

maxwel · Jan 28, 2023

You think you have a problem with doctrine?

And it's because... you disagree with Joyce Meyers?

Nope, you have no problem with doctrine.

: )
.

Magenta · Jan 28, 2023

notonmywatch said:

You are welcome

I did design it for a specific person, and I think the part of "this world is not our home"
was the part of the text that was important to them and what had inspired me to design it at that time.
Most translations do not say that part in that way, though the NLT does, so I have switched it to that

For this world is not our permanent home; we are looking forward to a home yet to come.

Mem · Jan 29, 2023

Raggedcloth said:

This is how I perceive works...

If you think about works related righteousness in us is similar in terms of the nature of things such as earthworks, waterworks, fireworks, windworks, etc., then you see how we display God's work in us.

John 3
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘Youb must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

That is, earthworks are born of the Native Americans forming them, waterworks are born of engineers fashioning them, and fireworks are born of pyrotechnicians creating them, and so it is with us relative doing to the works of God. As David prayed in his psalm, "Create in me a clean heart...(Psalm 51:10a)." after having committed what might've been his most grievous sin. And we look upon that, his prayer, now and are amazed, aren't we? Maybe even to the point of oohs and ahhs, and soo amazing! David's prayer shows off his belief and trust in God's character and ability to cleanse and transform him, "...and renew a right spirit within me...(Psalm51:10b)."

Raggedcloth · Jan 29, 2023

Magenta said:

Thank you for that. I know this about Calvin, from his own words: he was a desolate, quite young man on a country walk, wrestling with his conscience which was fiercely accusing him, and he fully expected God would be forced to be faithful to his own threatenings as Calvin put it, even though God himself much regretted that he had to be faithful in that way because in reality God actually liked Calvin despite Calvin's glaringly obvious failure to live up to His standards. Calvin had the word of God in his heart since childhood and during that part of that walk the words "the righteous are justified by faith" jumped out of his memory and slayed him. It's good to pack away the word of God in your heart, right, because you never know when a single phrase might jump out and save you, or someone else. That was when Calvin realized that God himself made the decision to bestow the faith that Calvin could live by. I don't feel right now like trying to explain what it would be like for me to live a life of always striving for God's approval, but I know there's no end of that sort of work and that I wouldn't feel satisfied until I unhealthily burned myself out by trying to be my own savior. God wants us to enter His rest from works of righteousness. Gosh, I just keep going don't I. That's all I can say about that because I could look up 50 verses, but who would that convince?

Raggedcloth · Jan 29, 2023

Mem said:

This is how I perceive works...

If you think about works related righteousness in us is similar in terms of the nature of things such as earthworks, waterworks, fireworks, windworks, etc., then you see how we display God's work in us.

John 3
5Jesus answered, “Truly, truly, I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6Flesh is born of flesh, but spirit is born of the Spirit. 7Do not be amazed that I said, ‘Youb must be born again.’ 8The wind blows where it wishes. You hear its sound, but you do not know where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit.”

That is, earthworks are born of the Native Americans forming them, waterworks are born of engineers fashioning them, and fireworks are born of pyrotechnicians creating them, and so it is with us relative doing to the works of God. As David prayed in his psalm, "Create in me a clean heart...(Psalm 51:10a)." after having committed what might've been his most grievous sin. And we look upon that, his prayer, now and are amazed, aren't we? Maybe even to the point of oohs and ahhs, and soo amazing! David's prayer shows off his belief and trust in God's character and ability to cleanse and transform him, "...and renew a right spirit within me...(Psalm51:10b)."

Raggedcloth · Jan 29, 2023

I'm sorry to say I don't view works of righteousness in that way. I see works of righteousness as the works God appointed for us to do prior to His creating us, to be performed by us in due time throughout our lives. But we tend to twist the meaning of those works and make them mean that we accumulate them like putting cash in the bank so that we can buy our salvation from God because in the end we earn it through our works and and become our own savior. Am I just building a straw man here? I'd really like to know if I'm wrong about this, but if I am wrong please let me know how I can live my life without knowing whether I've done enough good works to secure my salvation. I'm already answer enough, and God says he wants to give me rest.

Mem · Jan 29, 2023

Raggedcloth said:

I'm sorry to say I don't view works of righteousness in that way. I see works of righteousness as the works God appointed for us to do prior to His creating us, to be performed by us in due time throughout our lives. But we tend to twist the meaning of those works and make them mean that we accumulate them like putting cash in the bank so that we can buy our salvation from God because in the end we earn it through our works and and become our own savior. Am I just building a straw man here? I'd really like to know if I'm wrong about this, but if I am wrong please let me know how I can live my life without knowing whether I've done enough good works to secure my salvation. I'm already answer enough, and God says he wants to give me rest.

I do not only believe that God wants to give me rest but that He already did. Do you believe that you will not, or cannot, believe that until He "lets" you believe it?

Nehemiah6 · Jan 29, 2023

Raggedcloth said:

Joyce Meyer is a FALSE TEACHER. Just ignore her and run away from her teachings. If your church is enamored with her find another church.

Locoponydirtman · Jan 29, 2023

Raggedcloth said:

Meh, people are easily offended. Whuch is quite sad.

Raggedcloth said:

She is a heretic on many fronts.

Raggedcloth said:

That is sad to hear.

This guy gives a proper review of one of her messages or teachings or what ever you want to call it.

Locoponydirtman · Jan 29, 2023

Hello I think I have a problem about doctrine.

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