Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[HeIsHere]

We will have to agree to disagree on this. Head knowledge avails naught. Paul was a true master of the Scripture before he was saved, and had ZERO capacity to recognize Jesus for Who he really is.

Likewise today many MANY astute elite bible scholars do not believe....at all. They are resolute Christ deniers in fact.

Like this Ehrman guy.....

https://christianchat.com/threads/saints-meet-your-opposition.209234/post-4997162

https://christianchat.com/threads/saints-meet-your-opposition.209234/post-5000492

https://christianchat.com/threads/saints-meet-your-opposition.209234/post-4999936

Whereas little children and those with little in the way of raw intelligence DO believe.

Believing the "Gospel" is not head knowledge.

 

[Cameron143]

But first, we must believe in Jesus Christ to be justified by the faith of Jesus Christ. Christ's faith is God's righteousness revealed. Believing is our part.

Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

Romans 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

I've read many of your posts. We aren't going to agree on the mechanics of salvation. I understand your position and I respect how you feel and why. I just don't agree on some points.
We do, however, share a common savior and recognize that it is our trust in Him and His sacrifice on the cross that grants us peace with God.
Let's focus on that.

 

[cv5]

Believing the "Gospel" is not head knowledge.

Exactly. It is a miraculous, regenerating work of the Holy Ghost on the heart that brings a new creation.
And not a work of the fallen mind of fallen flesh in any way shape or form.

What worries me is how anybody can fail to understand this. Despite the DOZENS AND DOZENS of similar verses that I have posted on this thread.

2Co 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

1Pe 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten G313 ➔ us again G313 unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

1Pe 1:23
Being born again, G313 not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

Jhn 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Jhn 14:17
“the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

Rom 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

Rom 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

2Ti 1:14
That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.

 

[Magenta]

Fallen men have the ability and capacity to believe the gospel.

Jesus' Words in John 6:65

 

[VARob]

We will have to agree to disagree on this. Head knowledge avails naught. Paul was a true master of the Scripture before he was saved, and had ZERO capacity to recognize Jesus for Who he really is.

That's not true. He just didn't believe it. Having Jesus witness to you personally would convince most people, I would think..

Likewise today many MANY astute elite bible scholars do not believe....at all. They are resolute Christ deniers in fact.

Like this Ehrman guy.....

https://christianchat.com/threads/saints-meet-your-opposition.209234/post-4997162

https://christianchat.com/threads/saints-meet-your-opposition.209234/post-5000492

https://christianchat.com/threads/saints-meet-your-opposition.209234/post-4999936

Whereas little children and those with little in the way of raw intelligence DO believe.

There are also a lot of intelligent bible scholars who do believe in Jesus Christ.

 

[VARob]

Exactly. It is a miraculous, regenerating work of the Holy Ghost on the heart that brings a new creation.

Regeneration comes when a person decides to believe the gospel (Eph 1:13).

And not a work of the fallen mind of fallen flesh in any way shape or form.

Rom 10:17

What worries me is how anybody can fail to understand this. Despite the DOZENS AND DOZENS of similar verses that I have posted on this thread.

2Co 5:17
Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

People become "in Christ" when they decide to believe the gospel.

1Pe 1:3
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten G313 ➔ us again G313 unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

We are begotten by God when we choose to believe the gospel.

1Pe 1:23
Being born again, G313 not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

We become born again when we decide to believe the gospel.

Jhn 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

It is God's will that people become born of Him when they decide to believe the gospel.

Jhn 14:17
“the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

Jesus is contrasting people who chose to believe with those who didn't.

Rom 8:9
But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His.

The Spirit of God dwells in people when they decide to believe the gospel.

Rom 8:11
But if the Spirit of Him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who dwells in you.

The Spirit of God comes to dwell in people when they decide... you know the rest...

2Ti 1:14
That good thing which was committed to you, keep by the Holy Spirit who dwells in us.

The Holy Spirit dwells in us because ... same as above.

 

[cv5]

Regeneration comes when a person decides to believe the gospel
People become "in Christ" when they decide to believe the gospel.
We are begotten by God when we choose to believe the gospel.
We become born again when we decide to believe the gospel.
It is God's will that people become born of Him when they decide to believe the gospel.
Jesus is contrasting people who chose to believe with those who didn't.
The Spirit of God dwells in people when they decide to believe the gospel.
The Spirit of God comes to dwell in people when they decide... you know the rest...

According to you God has no say in the matter whatsoever, man's will is supreme in the matter of his own salvation, and if it were not for the gracious choice of men, the wisdom of men, and the perception of men, NOBODY WOULD BE SAVED. Absolutely nobody.

God's Word says otherwise. Emphatically. Many many times. Unequivocally. Much of which I have already posted.

Evidently you believe God is lying when He says that HE has chosen US before the foundation of the world. Before we were ever born.

 

[cv5]

@VARob:

John 15:16
You DID NOT choose Me but I chose you....

THAT is the standard of practice when it comes to who is making the decision regarding choice. Always was always will be.

Which utterly obliterates your man-centric post #3326

 

[Underwhosewings]

Great you can quote scripture. Too bad you don't explain what relevance it's supposed to have to this discussion.

Wow 😄 you talk like my son, nice.
Relevance!!
Every relevance.
You patiently go into such great detail to show them that OSAS is wrong doctrine and still they don’t get it because
“few there be that find it”

 

[ResidentAlien]

Wow you talk like my son, nice.
Relevance!!
Every relevance.
You patiently go into such great detail to show them that OSAS is wrong doctrine and still they don’t get it because
“few there be that find it”

Okay, have a nice day.

 

[mailmandan]

Believing the "Gospel" is not head knowledge.

Simply believing that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened" would be head knowledge. Even the demons believe this. Going beyond mere "mental assent" belief and actually trusting in the death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (which is what it means to believe the gospel - Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) would be believing in our heart.

Romans 10:9 - that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved. 10 For with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching.

 

[Underwhosewings]

Okay, have a nice day.

Goodnight from the land down under!
🙏

 

[HeIsHere]

Simply believing that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened" would be head knowledge.

Yes agree, but this not the Gospel, most people do not have the full good news.

Most people who believe this part do not fully understand, either willfully or ignorantly that this event in history has a personal application to them.

 

[Snacks]

Wow 😄 you talk like my son, nice.
Relevance!!
Every relevance.
You patiently go into such great detail to show them that OSAS is wrong doctrine and still they don’t get it because
“few there be that find it”

He’s an angry tare who likes to argue for the sake of arguing. Shake his dust off your feet and pay him no mind.

 

[Snacks]

Simply believing that the death, burial and resurrection of Christ "happened" would be head knowledge. Even the demons believe this. Going beyond mere "mental assent" belief and actually trusting in the death, burial and resurrection as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation (which is what it means to believe the gospel - Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4) would be believing in our heart.

After reading your post I wondered if anyone falls into the category you described, then realized you just defined most Catholics.

 

[Runningman]

OSAS debunked yet again.

Revelation 12
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 14
12Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Revelation 22
14Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

 

[cv5]

People become "in Christ" when they decide to believe the gospel.

Here you go. 7001 believers in all of Israel. Pretty grim situation. God Himself choosing and reserving was the only reason Israel survived this crisis.

1Ki 19:14
And he said, “I have been very zealous for the LORD God of hosts; because the children of Israel have forsaken Your covenant, torn down Your altars, and killed Your prophets with the sword. I alone am left; and they seek to take my life.”

1Ki 19:18
“Yet I have reserved seven thousand in Israel, all whose knees have not bowed to Baal, and every mouth that has not kissed him.”

Isa 1:9
Unless the LORD of hosts
Had left to us a very small remnant,
We would have become like Sodom,
We would have been made like Gomorrah.

Rom 9:27
Isaiah also cries out concerning Israel

“Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea,
The remnant will be saved.

Rom 9:28
For He will finish the work and cut it short in righteousness,
Because the LORD will make a short work upon the earth.”

Rom 9:29
And as Isaiah said before:

“Unless the LORD of Sabaoth had left us a seed,
We would have become like Sodom,
And we would have been made like Gomorrah.”

 

[VARob]

According to you God has no say in the matter whatsoever, man's will is supreme in the matter of his own salvation, and if it were not for the gracious choice of men, the wisdom of men, and the perception of men, NOBODY WOULD BE SAVED. Absolutely nobody.

According to the Bible, God wants all men to be saved. According to the Bible, people can choose to believe the gospel, or not.

God's Word says otherwise. Emphatically. Many many times. Unequivocally. Much of which I have already posted.

No it doesn't.

Evidently you believe God is lying when He says that HE has chosen US before the foundation of the world. Before we were ever born.

No, cv5... I do not believe God is lying. God does not lie.

God chose the Christian church before the foundation of the world, not individual Christians.

 

[VARob]

@VARob:

John 15:16
You DID NOT choose Me but I chose you....

THAT is the standard of practice when it comes to who is making the decision regarding choice. Always was always will be.

Which utterly obliterates your man-centric post #3326

Who was Jesus speaking to? The twelve. Jesus chose his disciples.

 

[cv5]

That's not true. He just didn't believe it. Having Jesus witness to you personally would convince most people, I would think..

He did not "believe it" because Jesus had yet to open his eyes to the truth.

Act 9:5
And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”

Opening the eyes of the blind (including "seeing" Who He is) is Lord's prerogative. Seen over and over again, OT and NT.

Luk 24:15
So it was, while they conversed and reasoned, that Jesus Himself drew near and went with them.
Luk 24:16
But their eyes were restrained, so that they did not know Him.
Luk 24:30
Now it came to pass, as He sat at the table with them, that He took bread, blessed and broke it, and gave it to them.
Luk 24:31
Then their eyes were opened and they knew Him; and He vanished from their sight.