Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

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HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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cv5 said:
No it isn't. I am trying to make a point: that being Jesus is the SOURCE of the gracious gift faith.
Thats is my point, and that is the point of the verse.

One must first recognize who Jesus is (gift #1), then enduring faith (gift #2) is what sustains us, and is in effect the gift of perseverance.

All of this absurdity about how we, in an of ourselves, are mustering up anything having to do with our salvation (including faith) makes Jesus a beggar.
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Jesus is offering salvation a person needs to be persuaded to accept the gift, lets not use language that is not precise.
If faith to be persuaded is a gift, then we have the have and the have nots, those who are given faith and those who are not.

Flies in the face of all the calls in scripture to believe in/trust in Jesus.

Scripture does speak of faith as a gift for the various ministries (Corinthians I beleive) that is not the saving faith that is after we have entered into the Kingdom of God.
 
cv5

cv5

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HeIsHere said:
I disagree period. Faith is being fully persuaded of the truth.

Doubt precludes faith (Romans 14:23; Jas. 1:6, 7).

A single doubt about the gospel offer will keep one from saving faith. The convicting and convincing ministry of both the Holy Spirit and the Word of God is enough to overcome any doubt. It is when men have hardened their hearts that the word of God is of none effect.

When one issue is answered, hardened men will come up with ten more; they determine to not consider the evidence.
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And Who exactly is doing the "persuading" of this "truth"? Yourself? I don't think so.

Jhn 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jhn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Jhn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1Jo 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
 
R

Runningman

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Cameron143 said:
One's faith isn't dead because it isn't accompanied by works. It never existed as is evidenced by the lack of works.
Works in and of themselves are no sure evidence of faith. Read Matt 7:21-23. Those individuals had great works yet lacked faith.
The only true works that evidence genuine salvation are those God does in us. I guarantee you that the Pharisees kept the law outwardly far in excess of you and I. But they did not exercise the internal attributes of love and mercy that can only be produced in us by God.
You seem to believe that by doing outward acts you have genuine faith. I believe my faith is genuine because I see the work that God has wrought in me. And from the work He has done His love is shed abroad in my heart. In other words, it seems you rely on your compliance to the law for evidence that you are saved. I rely on God's work in me to produce obedience. You are relying on your effort. I'm relying on God's efforts. This is what it means to live is Christ.
Hence, your faith is not actually in Jesus, but yourself.
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That was quite a ride to get from having faith in Jesus, like he said to do, to having faith in myself.

Jesus said have faith in him, not ourselves. Your faith is something you do and it’s placed in Jesus.

Do you want to spend the next day or two watching me destroy unconditional election? I mean, it seems like that’s the root cause of your misconception.
 
cv5

cv5

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HeIsHere said:
If faith to be persuaded is a gift, then we have the have and the have nots, those who are given faith and those who are not.
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Faith is a gift. No doubt about that. God's choice about who is persuaded or not is His business....not mine.
We are commanded to preach to every living creature. That is our business.

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
 
cv5

cv5

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1Jo 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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cv5 said:
And Who exactly is doing the "persuading" of this "truth"? Yourself? I don't think so.

Jhn 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

Jhn 15:26
But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

Jhn 16:13
Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1Jo 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.
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I really do not see these scriptures proving your point, they are often in reference to after one has been saved and the spiritual learning and gifts of the Holy Spirit after salvation.

The in dwelling of the Holy Spirit (regeneration preceding salvation) is not the order of scripture and I cannot even bring myself to argue this doctrine as I see it as wholly absurd.

Reminds of the story of the sinner who went to bed and woke up a saint.

"All of sudden I awoke and I didn't even think or consider anything, it just happened out of the blue, had never even heard of Jesus I was just saved!! POOF!! :D
 
V

VARob

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cv5 said:
Faith is a gift. No doubt about that.
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No, the gift is salvation, which is received BY faith, something anyone can choose to have.

God's choice about who is persuaded or not is His business....not mine.
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If it was God's choice, everyone would be saved, because God wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9).

We are commanded to preach to every living creature. That is our business.
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The reason is to give people a chance to hear and believe the gospel.

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
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The gift is salvation BY faith, not the faith itself.

Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.
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God is drawing everyone, He wants everyone to be saved.

Jhn 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
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People can choose to be one of Jesus' sheep.

Calvinism is not true.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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cv5 said:
1Jo 4:6
We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Eph 2:8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Jhn 6:44
No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

Jhn 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.
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Okay ... nope the verbiage does not support faith is part of the gift.

The word ‘gift’ is also nominative which clarifies that it is salvation that is the gift, not faith.

Even if it is a bit murky with this verse there are
still plenty of scripture to support that saving faith comes by hearing etc.,

Roman's 4:5 his faith, not the gift of his faith, all through scripture their faith, etc.,
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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VARob said:
No, the gift is salvation, which is received BY faith, something anyone can choose to have.


If it was God's choice, everyone would be saved, because God wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9).


The reason is to give people a chance to hear and believe the gospel.


The gift is salvation BY faith, not the faith itself.


God is drawing everyone, He wants everyone to be saved.


People can choose to be one of Jesus' sheep.

Calvinism is not true.
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Thank you!!
 
Magenta

Magenta

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HeIsHere said:
Reminds of the story of the sinner who went to bed and woke up a saint.

"All of sudden I awoke and I didn't even think or consider anything, it just happened
out of the blue, had never even heard of Jesus I was just saved!! POOF!! :D
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I have heard of people like that, although they had heard of Jesus.

A former member here said it was like that for both her and her husband.

Said she went to bed a non-believer, awoke a believer.

Truth really is stranger than fiction at times :unsure::giggle:
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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Runningman said:
That was quite a ride to get from having faith in Jesus like he said to having faith in myself. Jesus said have faith in him, not ourselves. Your faith is something you do. Do you want to spend the next day or two watching me destroy unconditional election? I mean, it seems like that’s the root cause of your misconception.
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I'll pass.
What I see as your misunderstanding is that faith is something you do. Faith is a noun. It isn't something you do. It is something you believe. And it comes by hearing which is something most people don't understand but I'm trying to withdraw from the conversation, not expand it.
Now it is possible to exercise faith and we all do. What we believe governs what we do. If I believe I can fly I might jump off the roof. If I don’t, I most certainly will not.
You believe through your observance of certain requirements you gain and maintain your salvation. I believe salvation was a gift that I did nothing to obtain and all that is necessary to maintain it will be provided to me.
Your belief relies on you. Mine relies on God. That's why I wrote that you trusted in you, not Jesus.
I don't think any further discussion between us on this matter will change your understanding so further discussion on this particular subject will not prove profitable in my opinion. But I am grateful for your time and the tenor of the discourse.
 
cv5

cv5

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HeIsHere said:
I really do not see these scriptures proving your point, they are often in reference to after one has been saved and the spiritual learning and gifts of the Holy Spirit after salvation.

The in dwelling of the Holy Spirit (regeneration preceding salvation) is not the order of scripture and I cannot even bring myself to argue this doctrine as I see it as wholly absurd.

Reminds of the story of the sinner who went to bed and woke up a saint.

"All of sudden I awoke and I didn't even think or consider anything, it just happened out of the blue, had never even heard of Jesus I was just saved!! POOF!! :D
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Well you had better dust off that Bible of yours and find out the fact of the matter.
What I am saying is that FAITH and TRUTH have a source, a prime mover, and are both GIFTS. The gospel itself is a gift.

So....Who is doing the blessing here whereby men should see and hear? And after we see and hear, Who is that which is guaranteeing that our faith fail not?

Mat 13:16
“But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

Jhn 9:39
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Act 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Luk 22:32
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

1Th 5:24
Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

2Th 3:3
But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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Magenta said:
I have heard of people like that, although they had heard of Jesus.

A former member here said it was like that for both her and her husband.

Said she went to bed a non-believer, awoke a believer.

Truth really is stranger than fiction at times :unsure::giggle:
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Maybe it was in one those twilight moments between sleep and wakefulness. :cool:

I have never understood the sleep state really, but I sure need it! :D
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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cv5 said:
Well you had better dust off that Bible of yours and find out the fact of the matter.
What I am saying is that FAITH and TRUTH have a source, a prime mover, and are both GIFTS. The gospel itself is a gift.

So....Who is doing the blessing here whereby men should see and hear? And after we see and hear, Who is that which is guaranteeing that our faith fail not?

Mat 13:16
“But blessed are your eyes for they see, and your ears for they hear;

Jhn 9:39
And Jesus said, For judgment I am come into this world, that they which see not might see; and that they which see might be made blind.

Act 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Luk 22:32
But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

1Th 5:24
Faithful is he that calleth you, who also will do it.

2Th 3:3
But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil.
Click to expand...


I think there is demarcation between saving faith and the walk of faith.
 
HeIsHere

HeIsHere

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Cameron143 said:
If faith comes by hearing and hearing from the word of God, why would it be different?
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How the Holy Spirit operates in the live of non believer is different fromhow He operates in the life of the believer, is it not?

That is my understanding.
 
Cameron143

Cameron143

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HeIsHere said:
How the Holy Spirit operates in the live of non believer is different fromhow He operates in the life of the believer, is it not?

That is my understanding.
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I think the Holy Spirit fulfills different operations but in the same manner. For example, for the unbeliever He brings a sorrow that works salvation. In a believer He may bring conviction or understanding. But faith always comes with hearing and the word of God.
 
cv5

cv5

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VARob said:
No, the gift is salvation, which is received BY faith, something anyone can choose to have.


If it was God's choice, everyone would be saved, because God wants everyone to be saved (1 Tim 2:4; 2 Pet 3:9).
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You have opinion....I have provided boilerplate verses.
What I find disturbing is how people want to deny God's wise and almighty decision making power......and validate their own.
BTW...I am not a "Calvinist". But I do believe in God's sovereignty in the matter of salvation.
Yes the invitation and call IS made to ALL. Yes it is a legitimate call. But only SOME will believe.
And some will continue to hate God and deny His gracious gifts. IMO, this is indeed a matter of fallen mans WILL to remain a rebel.

Why this is so......is frankly NONE OF MY BUSINESS. All we know is that some are saved and some are not. The question of WHY is far far beyond our purview and remains secret in the councils of God.

BTW.....God can CLOSE EYES and hearts just as He opens then. His choice.

Mat 13:11
He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

Mat 13:13
Therefore speak I to them in parables: because they seeing see not; and hearing they hear not, neither do they understand.
Mat 13:14
And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:
Mat 13:16
But blessed are your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. (blessed by Whom?)

Deu 29:4
Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

Rom 11:8
(According as it is written, God hath given them the spirit of slumber, eyes that they should not see, and ears that they should not hear, unto this day. (This phenomenon of blindness is still occurring DURING THE CHURCH AGE POST RESURRECTION!)
 
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