Do you observe the Sabbath?

[Inquisitor]

It's more like making a practice of sin. Think of any habitual sin people may do that they aren't even trying to resist anymore. That isn't walking in the Spirit.

1 John 3
9Anyone born of God refuses to practice sin, because God’s seed abides in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. 10By this the children of God are distinguished from the children of the devil: Anyone who does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is anyone who does not love his brother.

If you have been a Christian for a number of years, then you would have noticed that your sin is usually habitual.

There are far too many deeds of the flesh to ever imagine, that you can conquer them all.

Perfect, sinless Christians do not exist and never have.

May I recommend you confess your sins to Jesus, especially those annoying habitual sins.

Anyone who claims they do not sin is a liar.

 

[mailmandan]

A very good post dan.

"Those who are sanctified have been "set apart" or "made holy" in standing before God positionally in Christ."

Certain people who teach salvation by works end up misinterpreting Hebrews 12:14 to mean that if we are not holy "enough" (personal holiness) "in addition" to placing our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, then we will not see the Lord/will not be saved.

 

[Inquisitor]

Okay, then we don’t agree about anything. That’s what I thought.

I’ll just stick with the plain words of the Bible that say you’re not under God’s law if you walk in the Spirit, you’re under grace if you walk in the Spirit, and if you don’t then you’re under the law and therefore not saved by grace.

Your error is you’re supposing it’s impossible to lose your salvation, something the Bible doesn’t say. Amazingly, the exact oppose is stated throughout the Bible.

The bottom line for this is who’s side are you really on? I’m saying don’t sin, do good works, walk in the Spirit, don’t walk in the flesh. You’re starting to rebuttal all of this. Not happening.

With the Bible discussions can become circular because we’re confined to a box of what the Bible says. When we have gone through it all we just start reiterating the same points. Let’s agree to disgaree.

The Sabbath is required.

Ok, we do disagree strongly.

Jesus has reconciled me to the Father and I accept His gift of salvation.

You on the other hand, are struggling to acquire that salvation through legal obedience.

The gift of salvation is by grace or it's not a gift.

"I’m saying don’t sin, do good works, walk in the Spirit, don’t walk in the flesh."

That is not the reason for your salvation.

Sorry Running man, Jesus is the cause, the reason for your salvation.

Colossians 13
For He rescued us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

See, Jesus is the one who gets all the credit, the glory.

 

[Inquisitor]

Certain people who teach salvation by works end up misinterpreting Hebrews 12:14 to mean that if we are not holy "enough" (personal holiness) "in addition" to placing our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, then we will not see the Lord/will not be saved.

But why is it so prevalent across the Christian world?

They cannot see the separation between Christ's divine reconciliation gifted to us. And there own pathetic attempts at a holy lifestyle.

A vast difference, the clay believes it can mold and save itself, become suitable for salvation?

It is a powerful deception.

 

[TMS]

You left out the word 'grace'. Hence, by grace you are saved through faith and that is not from you.

If salvation is delivered by grace, then there is nothing you can do to alter that, except to believe God's promise.

By the way TMS, how does your church define the word 'grace'?

It doesn't matter what my church believes, the bible is the truth.
Grace is a gift from God
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
The measure of the gift of Christ = all of heaven, the life and death of Jesus, the Godhead in bodily form...
Infinitly huge....

So a infinitly huge gift from God. For everyone, why?
Because where Sin abounds Grace does much more abound.

You said there is nothing we can do to alter the gift of salvation except believe.

We do need to accept the Gift and we do need to have faith in the Gift but what does it mean to recieve the grace in VAIN.

2Co 6:1-4
1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) 3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed: 4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,

The list goes on..... read it.
By "all things" we do or don't do, we are either recieving the grace in vain or not recieving it in vain.

 

[Inquisitor]

Certain people who teach salvation by works end up misinterpreting Hebrews 12:14 to mean that if we are not holy "enough" (personal holiness) "in addition" to placing our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, then we will not see the Lord/will not be saved.

I fear that they may never rest in Jesus.

 

[Inquisitor]

It doesn't matter what my church believes, the bible is the truth.
Grace is a gift from God
Eph 4:7 But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ.
The measure of the gift of Christ = all of heaven, the life and death of Jesus, the Godhead in bodily form...
Infinitly huge....

So a infinitly huge gift from God. For everyone, why?
Because where Sin abounds Grace does much more abound.

You said there is nothing we can do to alter the gift of salvation except believe.

We do need to accept the Gift and we do need to have faith in the Gift but what does it mean to recieve the grace in VAIN.

2Co 6:1-4
1 We then, as workers together with him, beseech you also that ye receive not the grace of God in vain. 2 (For he saith, I have heard thee in a time accepted, and in the day of salvation have I succoured thee: behold, now is the accepted time; behold, now is the day of salvation.) 3 Giving no offence in any thing, that the ministry be not blamed: 4 But in all things approving ourselves as the ministers of God, in much patience, in afflictions, in necessities, in distresses,

The list goes on..... read it.
By "all things" we do or don't do, we are either recieving the grace in vain or not recieving it in vain.

We are not discussing whether you can forfeit that gift of salvation.

"We do need to accept the Gift and we do need to have faith in the Gift but what does it mean to recieve the grace in VAIN."

The conversation centers on the free gift of salvation given to us.

It's about how we acquire that gift of salvation in the first place.

You can only ever be saved by the reconciliation that Jesus wrought.

It's not about you or your efforts to reach the mark.

Salvation has been freely offered to you through that divine sacrifice. No other way to achieve that perfect righteousness.

 

[Mem]

Certain people who teach salvation by works end up misinterpreting Hebrews 12:14 to mean that if we are not holy "enough" (personal holiness) "in addition" to placing our faith in Jesus Christ for salvation, then we will not see the Lord/will not be saved.

I fear that they may never rest in Jesus.

It goes back to a lack of reading comprehension of the impact of descriptive words such as "dead" in "faith without works is dead." These seem to be reading it rather, "faith without works dies."

 

[Runningman]

The gift of salvation is by grace or it's not a gift.

It’s grace through faith and faith isn’t a gift.

Do you know what grace is? It isn’t unmerited favor. Unmerited would mean that grace is received regardless of what someone does. If grace was unmerited then there would be literally nothing required on your part to be saved, not even having faith, believing, etc. In fact, one wouldn’t even be required to believe in God and they could reject Jesus from cradle to the grave and still get a ticket to heaven.

Sorry my friend, but that isn’t how it works and it’ll never work that way. Your faith and obedience to God are required. Being a Christian isn’t an idle faith of doing nothing.

 

[TMS]

Nothing has changed, huh? So Paul was just wasting his breath in 2 Corinthians 3:6-9 and Colossians 2:16-17? So the weekly sabbath is still in full force and it's commanded for Christians today? To "keep the sabbath" as it was required in the Old Testament under the old covenant of law involved compliance with specific regulations (Exodus 16:23; 35:3; Leviticus 23:32; Jeremiah 17:21) that were strictly enforced.

See how you added to what i said then used it against me..
I said the 10 commandments have not changed.
And i stand by that.
I didn't say the old covenant did not change or the civils laws of Israel have not changed.

 

[TMS]

How can someone keep a certain law when they only keep part of it?

The sabbath law that i keep is the 4th commandment.

It is not all the cerimonial laws and civil laws.

What part of the sabbath law do i not keep. If the law is what God spoke from heaven. And what Jesus spoke in His example and words. Exo 20:8-11
8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work: 10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: 11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

 

[TMS]

today, then why dom't sabbatarians seek to obey ALL that the Lord has commanded? How can someone keep a certain law when they only keep part of it?

Do you think we should steal today? Do you think we should commit adultery today? Or covert? Or take the Lords name in vain today?
These laws were given to Israel and they have laws to deal with people that don't obey.

If you believe in not committing adultery today why don't you enforce ..
Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Or enforce taking the name of the Lord in vain?
Lev 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.
?????? How can you attact sabbath keeping and yet forget about all the laws you fail to fully enforce in the same way.

 

[Inquisitor]

It goes back to a lack of reading comprehension of the impact of descriptive words such as "dead" in "faith without works is dead." These seem to be reading it rather, "faith without works dies."

Agree.

It is so deceptive. the idea, that it is Jesus plus our holiness, that is the reason for our salvation.

The scripture is very clear on this point, it was Jesus that granted us that gift of salvation.

Always a divine reconciliation administered by Jesus through grace.

We could only watch in amazement at that unconditional, divine love in action.

Yes, James s not questioning the power of faith, rather our faith is perfected by works.

 

[Inquisitor]

Do you think we should steal today? Do you think we should commit adultery today? Or covert? Or take the Lords name in vain today?
These laws were given to Israel and they have laws to deal with people that don't obey.

Yet, you continue to sin both in thought and behavior. Your a sinner and a powerful sinner at that. You know your daily sin. Don't tell me your going to ignore your own dreadful failures, and start pointing the finger at the others?

The law was written for you and grants you the knowledge that you are evil.

If you believe in not committing adultery today why don't you enforce ..

Because I am not under the law. I cannot enforce the law as it has been annulled.[/Quote]Lev 20:10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Or enforce taking the name of the Lord in vain?
Lev 24:16 And he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him: as well the stranger, as he that is born in the land, when he blasphemeth the name of the LORD, shall be put to death.
?????? How can you attact sabbath keeping and yet forget about all the laws you fail to fully enforce in the same way.[/QUOTE]Very good, that is the law, now start obeying that law.

 

[Runningman]

It goes back to a lack of reading comprehension of the impact of descriptive words such as "dead" in "faith without works is dead." These seem to be reading it rather, "faith without works dies."

i don’t think it’s a reading comprehension problem, but rather a dodge.

Anyone want to not see the Lord? Then don’t be holy.

Hebrews 12
14Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

Do you think you’ll see the Lord without holiness?

 

[Inquisitor]

It’s grace through faith and faith isn’t a gift.

Do you know what grace is? It isn’t unmerited favor. Unmerited would mean that grace is received regardless of what someone does. If grace was unmerited then there would be literally nothing required on your part to be saved, not even having faith, believing, etc. In fact, one wouldn’t even be required to believe in God and they could reject Jesus from cradle to the grave and still get a ticket to heaven.

Sorry my friend, but that isn’t how it works and it’ll never work that way. Your faith and obedience to God are required. Being a Christian isn’t an idle faith of doing nothing.

Still failing to understand the gift of salvation.

Rest in what Christ has done for you.

Hebrews 4:3
For we who have believed enter that rest, just as He has said, “As I swore in My anger, They certainly shall not enter My rest,” although His works were finished from the foundation of the world.

Salvation is a free gift and you cannot do anything else, but accept that gift by believing in Jesus.

Grace = unmerited favor

Grace = God's unconditional love for you.

Once again, Jesus alone is the one responsible for your salvation, rest in Him.

We will discuss your obedience and disobedience, another day.

 

[Inquisitor]

i don’t think it’s a reading comprehension problem, but rather a dodge.

Anyone want to not see the Lord? Then don’t be holy.

Hebrews 12
14Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

Do you think you’ll see the Lord without holiness?

Your still not proclaiming the gospel.

Believe in Jesus and be saved, by grace through faith and not of yourselves.

Sure you can cross the line, let go of Jesus, fail to enter, live in absolute disobedience.

But that amounts to a rebellion against God's grace and that free gift of salvation.

Salvation is gifted freely to all, by Christ alone. You cannot earn it in a partnership with Jesus.

The glory belongs to Jesus and no one else.

 

[Mem]

i don’t think it’s a reading comprehension problem, but rather a dodge.

Anyone want to not see the Lord? Then don’t be holy.

Hebrews 12
14Make every effort to live in peace with everyone and to be holy; without holiness no one will see the Lord.

Do you think you’ll see the Lord without holiness?

I've seen Him.

 

[TMS]

It is so deceptive. the idea, that it is Jesus plus our holiness, that is the reason for our salvation.

That is against the bible principles.
I don't believe it is Jesus plus our holiness.

It is Jesus plus Jesus plus Jesus = Holiness.

I believe Jesus wants us to be holy like He was holy and that by grace through faith He empowers us to be Holy.

Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
1Jn 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

 

[Runningman]

Your still not proclaiming the gospel.

Believe in Jesus and be saved, by grace through faith and not of yourselves.

Sure you can cross the line, let go of Jesus, fail to enter, live in absolute disobedience.

But that amounts to a rebellion against God's grace and that free gift of salvation.

Salvation is gifted freely to all, by Christ alone. You cannot earn it in a partnership with Jesus.

The glory belongs to Jesus and no one else.

You seem stuck on Ephesians 2, but other parts of the Bible elaborates about grace whereas Ephesians 2 doesn’t.

You’re under grace if you’re not under God’s law. You’re not under God’s law if you are led by the Spirit. If you’re under God’s law you’re under grace. This is very clear from Galatians 5.

Being led by the Spirit is measurable by specific thing you as a human chose to do because being led by the Spirit you are supposed to be following. On the other hand, you can consciously and deliberately seek after the things of the flesh and possibly not inherit the kingdom of God if they become your practice.

I keep repeating this and I guess I have my work cut out for me.

So you’re not understanding the Ephesians 2 “saved by grace” mantra you keep repeating.

Grace isn’t unmerited. Faith is your faith. Grace is God’s grace. The result is your salvation which is a gift from God. You got it all wrong and if this didn’t matter for the possible salvation of your soul I wouldn’t be here helping.