Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[SonLight_Wolf]

Quote " You invented that statement and attributed it to a phantom pastor. Just to denegrate the doctrine of eternal salvation."

You said I made up a statement. That is calling a person a liar. Apologize and we can move on.

The burden of proof is on you to prove what you claimed about a pastor you later named.

If you can't show proof they , by that name you gave them, said what you claimed, and he being a pastor too, then you slandered someone by name and profession in service to Christ.

Show proof! Because you introduced the claim. Or recant and apologize for introducing an unsubstantiated indictment against someone you named.

If proof is out there you can show it.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Better to just forgive and move on.

I am quite willing to move on if they are. But I don't think that will be the case. Time will tell.

 

[Cameron143]

We've come to the right place to practice forgiving people who neither desire it nor ask for it. This is the training grounds we need to sharpen our forgiveness skills. This Sabbath, that's one way I am keeping it holy.

People are often offensive. We aren’t compelled to take offense. Better to forgive. Best is to cover the offense in love as love covers a multitude of sin and against which there is no law.

 

[HeIsHere]

Regardless, don't do them.

A question of reflection:

If Adam and Eve died when they disobeyed God and we had need to be born again then wouldn't it be possible for us to die yet again?

The only thing that requires our attention is revealed truth apart from imposing our beliefs onto the text.

So speculation does not add value only what the scripture teaches.

The scripture provides no guidelines, process, threshold through which the un-sealing of Holy Spirit, the un-quickening of the person, or the undoing of being born from above, the unjustification, the un-sanctification occurs.


You keep pulling up scripture but none of them teach this and when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about the new birth this would have been the opportune moment to discuss its undoing and He makes no mention of its possibility.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

The burden of proof is on you to prove what you claimed about a pastor you later named.

If you can't show proof they , by that name you gave them, said what you claimed, and he being a pastor too, then you slandered someone by name and profession in service to Christ.

Show proof! Because you introduced the claim. Or recant and apologize for introducing an unsubstantiated indictment against someone you named.

If proof is out there you can show it.

And there it is folks. As I said, I am willing to move on. But I do not take kindly to being called a liar. I don't think anyone would.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Do you know what metanoia/repentance means as understood by the writers of the new testament and God?

Yes, I believe I do. Repentance is asking Gods forgiveness and turning from sin. But we do not become sinless, we still fail. Not that I believe you lose salvation every time you fail.

 

[SonLight_Wolf]

Better to just forgive and move on.

I don't need forgiveness for asking for proof behind someone making a claim about a supposed pastor in their zeal to denigrate the gospel truth of eternal salvation.

Personalize it and see my point maybe.

Example, someone claims on a different Christian discussion site: Cameron143 said the doctrine of OSAS would allow her to kill her neighbor and she'd still see heaven! She loves that doctrine because she can get away with anything!

I'm on that forum where they posted that and I post a reply: prove it! Link us to the post where Cameron has said this!

And that poster responds with your name and tells me,other members, go find it yourself!

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Sorry but real world examples are absolutely of no value.

What we are given is scripture and its truth is the only source.

If you do not know scripture well enough to formulate a response and make a case for you view fair enough, then just say so.

But then, if you have no foundation for your opinion, in which case it is less the an opinion since opinions should be based on facts, it is nothing but a misguided position based on nothing.

No I think that is being rather unfair. I have given my POV and used Scripture to do so. Are you asking me to do that again?? Real world examples are of value. The question is according to the word, where does the pastor I am speaking of stand now? I believe he is in a back slidden state. I have been 100% straight forward on what I believe, I used the Word to show what I believe and why. Now I am asking you. According to the Word is this pastor in fellowship, would he be in heaven if the Lord came today? The Word is the foundation for my opinion now I'm asking you what you believe. Most OSAS people would say the pastor was never saved in the first place. Is that your answer, or is it something else?

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes, I believe I do. Repentance is asking Gods forgiveness and turning from sin. But we do not become sinless, we still fail. Not that I believe you lose salvation every time you fail.

Metanoia the actual word from the Greek text from which repentance is derived is NOT at all about turning away from sin it means turning from one thing towards another.

In the context of salvation and where it is used in scripture it means ceasing fromt eh dead works of the law towards Christ as the fulfillment of the law and accepting His free gift of salvation on our behalf.


No wonder you think sin can undo salvation, you can feel bad about all your sins as much as you want but it will not save you nor unsave you.

 

[HeIsHere]

No I think that is being rather unfair. I have given my POV and used Scripture to do so. Are you asking me to do that again?? Real world examples are of value. The question is according to the word, where does the pastor I am speaking of stand now? I believe he is in a back slidden state. I have been 100% straight forward on what I believe, I used the Word to show what I believe and why. Now I am asking you. According to the Word is this pastor in fellowship, would he be in heaven if the Lord came today? The Word is the foundation for my opinion now I'm asking you what you believe. Most OSAS people would say the pastor was never saved in the first place. Is that your answer, or is it something else?

Lol, where is the scripture reference?
Which post?

 

[Runningman]

The only thing that requires our attention is revealed truth apart from imposing our beliefs onto the text.

So speculation does not add value only what the scripture teaches.

The scripture provides no guidelines, process, threshold through which the un-sealing of Holy Spirit, the un-quickening of the person, or the undoing of being born from above, the unjustification, the un-sanctification occurs.


You keep pulling up scripture but none of them teach this and when Jesus was speaking to Nicodemus about the new birth this would have been the opportune moment to discuss its undoing and He makes no mention of its possibility.

Well, death comes from sinning. Seems like if death and sin were irrelevant post-rebirth then there would be nothing else to talk about concerning them. Yet, throughout the NT, they keep telling them to not sin anymore after they are Christian. So it matters if we continue in "dead works" or "works that lead to death" i.e., sin. We're supposed to be serving the living God.


See any similarities between these verses?

Galatians 5
19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Revelation 21
7Those who are victorious will inherit all this, and I will be their God and they will be my children. 8But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

 

[Cameron143]

I don't need forgiveness for asking for proof behind someone making a claim about a supposed pastor in their zeal to denigrate the gospel truth of eternal salvation.

Personalize it and see my point maybe.

Example, someone claims on a different Christian discussion site: Cameron143 said the doctrine of OSAS would allow her to kill her neighbor and she'd still see heaven! She loves that doctrine because she can get away with anything!

I'm on that forum where they posted that and I post a reply: prove it! Link us to the post where Cameron has said this!

And that poster responds with your name and tells me,other members, go find it yourself!

Frankly, very little offends me. But even when I feel someone has been offensive I never feel the need to actually take offense. What someone may say to me or do to me will always be far less repulsive than what I have in my life said and done.

I also believe we reap what we have sown. Most see this as vengeance from God. I see it as a grace of God. As I experience from others the things I have done to others, I gain much understanding at the hurt and damage I have caused. This makes me much more sensitive to the way my words and deeds affect other people. It helps me to choose my words and actions more carefully.

Your example would have been more powerful if, instead of putting me as the example, you would have chosen Jesus.

 

[HeIsHere]

Well, death comes from sinning. Seems like if death and sin were irrelevant post-rebirth then there would be nothing else to talk about concerning them. Yet, throughout the NT, they keep telling them to not sin anymore after they are Christian. So it matters if we continue in "dead works" or "works that lead to death" i.e., sin. We're supposed to be serving the living God.

Galatians 5
19The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Yes sin causes emotional, psychological and physical damage and even science can support this, no one is stating sin is not relevant.

In reading your posts what it seems to me, and I am going to be a bit more intrusive is you have not come to grips with the Grace of God and the forgiveness of sins.

When you can come to understand that ALL sin has been forgiven past, present and future for all humanity then perhaps you can let go of this sin focus and live in the rest and grace of God.


Because let me tell you will never beat sin in the flesh the way it can be dealt with by walking in the Spirit.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Metanoia the actual word from the Greek text from which repentance is derived is NOT at all about turning away from sin it means turning from one thing towards another.

Yes, sin, we turn from sin.

Acts 3:19

Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out,

No wonder you think sin can undo salvation, you can feel bad about all your sins as much as you want but it will not save you nor unsave you.

Ok, but you would say that a person who sins was never saved in the first place. I'm saying they are back slidden. Either way we're saying you cannot live in sin and have an expectation of heaven. I think we can all agree on that point.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

When you can come to understand that ALL sin has been forgiven past, present and future for all humanity

.

Ok so that's a different understanding all together. Are you saying every single person on earth is saved? And as a second question, do you believe in a literal hell?

 

[HeIsHere]

The Bible teaches that you can turn away from the truth. No one can take away your salvation, no one can take you from God's hand, but you can walk away.

Luke 9:62
“Jesus replied, ‘No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.’”

1 Timothy 4:1
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Abandon means they had faith, they were saved and left the faith.

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will TURN AWAY from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
Matthew 24:9-13

Many will turn away from the truth, many. So they had the truth and turned back. He who stands firm, who does not turn back from the faith.


“Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation– IF indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.”
Colossians 1:21-23



“…But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in His kindness. Otherwise, you also will be CUT OFF.”
Romans 11:20-22

“See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that TURNS AWAY from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
Hebrews 3:12-14

Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. IF a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is THROWN AWAY and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into THE FIRE and burned.”
John 15:1-6

I don't see how anyone could argue OSAS after reading these verses. And there are more. The Bible clearly doesn't teach OSAS.

Okay so I found your post.

I can deconstruct all theses to demonstrate not one is referring to loss of spiritual salvation.

First of all "abandoning the faith" is not personal faith but the body of knowledge/traditions of the faith.

Not one is about losing one's personal salvation, not one, in fact many are warnings to Jews as the coming demise of their nation.

Cherry picking verses is an absolutely horrible way to make a case.

Take one and use exegesis to make your case.

 

[HeIsHere]

Ok so that's a different understanding all together. Are you saying every single person on earth is saved? And as a second question, do you believe in a literal hell?

Every person makes a choice to accept salvation or not, it needs to occur at a personal level.

 

[HeIsHere]

Yes, sin, we turn from sin.

Acts 3:19

Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out,






Ok, but you would say that a person who sins was never saved in the first place. I'm saying they are back slidden. Either way we're saying you cannot live in sin and have an expectation of heaven. I think we can all agree on that point.

Turning from sin is not how we are saved. Yes we turn from sin so that we can live a fruitful life but not to be saved.

Salvation is not I give God and He gives back. Nope.

 

[Runningman]

Yes sin causes emotional, psychological and physical damage and even science can support this, no one is stating sin is not relevant.

In reading your posts what it seems to me, and I am going to be a bit more intrusive is you have not come to grips with the Grace of God and the forgiveness of sins.

When you can come to understand that ALL sin has been forgiven past, present and future for all humanity then perhaps you can let go of this sin focus and live in the rest and grace of God.


Because let me tell you will never beat sin in the flesh the way it can be dealt with by walking in the Spirit.

Well, I can talk about all of the great things the Bible says, the blessings, the love, the forgiveness, the grace, the freedom and much more, but I wouldn't be helping if that's all I ever talked about. While those might feel good to hear, and trust me I definitely need to read them sometimes, they are only one side of the coin I think.

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

Okay so I found your post.

I can deconstruct all theses to demonstrate not one is referring to loss of spiritual salvation.

Oh I have no doubt that you can. But I believe it is saying exactly that. Sin cannot enter heaven. I understand when we come to Christ ours sins are under the blood. But that does not give us a licence to sin. The Word warns us against becoming "entangled in sin" again. We both agree that you cannot continue to live a sinful life and gain heaven, I think. Perhaps you don't agree.

First of all "abandoning the faith" is not personal faith but the body of knowledge/traditions of the faith.

Right, which is where we differ. I believe a person can walk away from salvation. I believe it because that's what the Word says.

Not one is about losing one's personal salvation, not one, in fact many are warnings to Jews as the coming demise of their nation.

The Jews are God's chosen people. We are grafted in. Rom says that we can be cut off. I don't see how that isn't talking about salvation.