Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[WillB]

There are three legs upon which OSAS stands or falls. Do these verses mean what they supposedly mean, or have they been misunderstood and misapplied? When we examine them next to other scriptures that clearly contradict them will they hold up? Let's see.

First, 1 John 2:19—"They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us. But they went out, that it might become plain that they all are not of us."

The OSAS interpretation of this verse says that those who "went out" were never in Christ to begin with; they were never saved. However, I suggest there's another meaning that conforms very well with other scriptures. This view says that those who "went out" were indeed saved and in Christ at one point, but were simply not as committed as the others. It's in this sense that they were not "of us." These are those spoken of in the parable of the sower (Matthew 13:5-6): "Other seeds fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil, and immediately they sprang up, since they had no depth of soil, but when the sun rose they were scorched. And since they had no root, they withered away." It sprang up, it had life to start with; but it "withered away."

Jesus' explanation of this passage is found in Matthew 13:20-21—"As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is the one who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy, yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away."

Second is 1 John 3:6—"No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him."

This seems pretty cut and dried: if someone turns away back into sin they never knew Him. But we have to understand this in light of other scriptures that contradict it. Those who "never knew Him," never had a proper understanding of Him. This corresponds to the first group in the parable of the sower: "When anyone hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what has been sown in his heart." The seed was "sown in his heart," but was snatched away because of this person's lack of understanding.

Third is John 10:28—"I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand." I agree with this verse: no one can indeed snatch them out of His hand. However, the person himself can walk away. For this reason I prefer the phrase "forfeit salvation" to "lose salvation."

Now let's look at some scriptures that plainly talk about walking away and falling away. I'm not going to use Hebrews because Hebrews is fiercely objected to by those who advocate OSAS, even though is has many relevant warnings about falling away. But Hebrews isn't necessary—there are plenty of others.

2 Peter 2:20-21—"For if, after they have escaped the defilements of the world through the knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, they are again entangled in them and overcome, the last state has become worse for them than the first. For it would have been better for them never to have known the way of righteousness than after knowing it to turn back from the holy commandment delivered to them."

This passage clearly illustrates a person who was once in Christ but who turned their back on Him. This shows a conscious action on the part of the one turning back. These verses correspond with Luke 9:26: "Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Matthew 24:10—"And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another."

1 Timothy 4:1—"Now the Spirit expressly says that in later times some will depart from the faith by devoting themselves to deceitful spirits and teachings of demons."

Matthew 24:13—"But the one who endures to the end will be saved."

Why say that those who endure to the end will be saved? If one cannot forfeit their salvation, why didn't He say "But all who have prayed the sinners prayer will be saved?"

Luke 9:26—"Jesus said to him, 'No one who puts his hand to the plow and looks back is fit for the kingdom of God.' "

Already mentioned, Luke 9:26 is a clear warning from the Lord about falling away.

https://www.ligonier.org/learn/qas/...ways-saved-and-the-perseverance-of-the-saints

Is “once saved, always save” the same as the perseverance of the saints?


In the strictest sense, I think they mean the same thing; namely, those whom God has saved, He will preserve and not allow to fall away.
It is legitimate to ask, Are those two ways of speaking equally useful? I think the question comes out of a fear that if you say, “Once saved, always saved,” it will sound like a carte blanche to go live any way you like. This expression can sound antinomian because it could be interpreted as saying, “God is stuck with me now that I am saved, so I can live the way I want because He still has to save me.” That is not what most of the original “once saved, always saved” people meant, but I can see how that is a concern and a potential danger.
On the other hand, the perseverance of the saints stresses that we live as saints perseveringly—we go on living as saints, pursuing holiness, and living by faith. As a matter of Christian living, the doctrine that we must persevere is more helpful. At the same time, we do not want to turn our responsibility to persevere into a righteousness based on works either. We always want to link our perseverance to our confidence in God’s preservation.

 

[WillB]

Your standard of judgement seems to be that telling lies doesn't count as lying...

This is untenable, on your part.


Your argument that Judas is proof genuine salvation can be lost simply does not hold any water at all. End of story. I'm not in this thread to defend false characterizations of salvation, but to correct your bad argumentation.

I suggest you work on getting a better position, one which honors Christ, instead of repeating debunked assertions.

WB: I should like to ask what evidence is there that Judas was saved before he betrayed Jesus?

And is it not the case that His followers didn't receive the Holy Spirit until AFTER His crucifixion and resurrection?

 

[ThereRoseaLamb]

let he who has no sin cast the first stone.

We can not judge another persons salvation without judging our own.

The question should be asked, if he was saved at all if there is a question at all. John said whoever sins has never met God. if this person is living in sin and continually sins with no remorse and no chastening of God (which believe me, he would feel it) then was he ever saved to begin with

however to use this argument to reject eternal security, is just a straw man.. Do you trust God to save and complete the work he started as Paul said he WILL (not might) do

or are you relying on your own righteousness.. and ability to not fall into sin?

The Bible teaches that you can turn away from the truth. No one can take away your salvation, no one can take you from God's hand, but you can walk away.

Luke 9:62
“Jesus replied, ‘No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.’”

1 Timothy 4:1
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Abandon means they had faith, they were saved and left the faith.

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will TURN AWAY from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
Matthew 24:9-13

Many will turn away from the truth, many. So they had the truth and turned back. He who stands firm, who does not turn back from the faith.


“Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation– IF indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.”
Colossians 1:21-23



“…But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in His kindness. Otherwise, you also will be CUT OFF.”
Romans 11:20-22

“See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that TURNS AWAY from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
Hebrews 3:12-14

Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. IF a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is THROWN AWAY and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into THE FIRE and burned.”
John 15:1-6

I don't see how anyone could argue OSAS after reading these verses. And there are more. The Bible clearly doesn't teach OSAS.

 

[Runningman]

Your standard of judgement seems to be that telling lies doesn't count as lying...

This is untenable, on your part.


Your argument that Judas is proof genuine salvation can be lost simply does not hold any water at all. End of story. I'm not in this thread to defend false characterizations of salvation, but to correct your bad argumentation.

I suggest you work on getting a better position, one which honors Christ, instead of repeating debunked assertions.

Responding with a disagreement doesn’t debunk me. The verses you’ve provided have proved none of your points and I’ve countered you at every turn.

The 12 disciples chosen by Jesus were appointed as the 12 apostles, that’s plain and blunt. This isn’t changing on this side of eternity any time soon. Speaking to the 12, Jesus informed them they will inherit eternal life. Judas was included in the 12 while Jesus was saying that. Judas betrayed Jesus and became the son of perdition. He lost his salvation.

Your religious dogma does not honor God. Additionally, it’s evidence you’re out of coherent ideas when you’re calling me a liar, when it’s you who is actually trying to find scripture to undo what Jesus plainly said. You’re not attacking my words, but the words of Jesus.

Here’s what you lack and what’s been debunked:

1. You have nothing that plainly calls Judas an unbeliever. Btw, a devil or betrayer isn’t necessarily an unbeliever since even the devils believe.

2. Nothing that says Judas wasn’t included with those who were told they would sit on the 12 throne and inherit eternal life.

3. Nothing that says Judas was not given authority to cast out demons, heal the sick, and preach the gospel when Jesus sent out the 12.

4. Nothing that says Judas wasn’t chosen and wasn’t a follower of Jesus.

You’ve even resorted to silly arguments about disciples being people who tail Jesus like the Pharisees did, bringing up fringe doctrines about the 13 tribes of Israel, and claiming that Matthias was there when Jesus told them they’d have eternal life, but Matthias wasn’t an apostle yet.

OSAS has been smashed man.

 

[Runningman]

Eternal life is not temporal.

It has a starting point.

 

[Runningman]

The Bible teaches that you can turn away from the truth. No one can take away your salvation, no one can take you from God's hand, but you can walk away.

Luke 9:62
“Jesus replied, ‘No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.’”

1 Timothy 4:1
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Abandon means they had faith, they were saved and left the faith.

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will TURN AWAY from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
Matthew 24:9-13

Many will turn away from the truth, many. So they had the truth and turned back. He who stands firm, who does not turn back from the faith.


“Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation– IF indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.”
Colossians 1:21-23



“…But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in His kindness. Otherwise, you also will be CUT OFF.”
Romans 11:20-22

“See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that TURNS AWAY from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
Hebrews 3:12-14

Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. IF a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is THROWN AWAY and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into THE FIRE and burned.”
John 15:1-6

I don't see how anyone could argue OSAS after reading these verses. And there are more. The Bible clearly doesn't teach OSAS.

Welcome to the forum by the way. Nice to see another stalwart standing guard over the truth.

Stick around for a while and they’ll find a clever way to change those words to mean something other than being a branch cut off, that faith can’t be abandoned, and that the faith can’t be turned away from. In fact, they probably already have counter arguments loaded.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

1 Timothy 4:1
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Abandon means they had faith, they were saved and left the faith.

[I bolded for to make a point regarding this]

"THE faith" refers to "that body of Truth" (we find in our NT--after Christ's death and resurrection).

It does not refer to "faith [of her / him / them]" (i.e. personal "faith" / trust... as the words "[they] had faith" speaks to)



"... some shall depart from THE faith"... giving heed to (the other things listed from there in the passage)






[this is applicable to "Christendom"... not all of "Christendom" are actual believers / Christians / saints / trusting in Christ for salvation ... (however you want to put it)]

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

that faith can’t be abandoned

See my post above this one.



"THE faith" is "THAT BODY OF TRUTH" (we find in our NT--following Christ's death and resurrection).



It is NOT referencing one's personal "faith / belief / trust" in Christ.

 

[SonLight_Wolf]

You’re still commenting and haven’t provided proof that either corrects what I said or expands on it. Let me tell you something about Christianity, it doesn’t really matter what you say. I mean, thanks for sharing your opinion, but regardless of whatever it says, it doesn’t undo the authoritative words of Jesus.

Won't waste my time repeating the same behavior expecting a different result.

When the gospel doesn't teach you, and you [ush your contrary doctrine against the scriptures you're asking me to post again as others have, you're on your own.

The entire New Testament refutes your philosophy. You twist scripture to sustain your argument. That's why you can't understand scripture as it its true authentic self.

Good luck with that.

 

[SonLight_Wolf]

I do not get it

eternal life.. if it is conditional. it is not eternal. it would be called conditional life.

why is it so hard for them?

Easy. They're reading the Bible with their natural mind.
The natural mind invests itself in self pride, ego.
That's why that mentality cannot fathom an eternal covenant given by God's grace. Because the natural minds [ride, ego, self-centered preoccupation first and only believes they are in control.

They can therefore choose Christ, choose to lose salvation, and have to wait till they're dead to find out if they were worthy , after all that effort, of a reward.

The natural mind cannot understand the things of the spirit because they are foolishness to them. 1 Corinthians 2:14

 

[SonLight_Wolf]

That’s not exactly it.

Eternal life is never ending and not conditional.

The thing is getting the eternal life, that part is conditional.

Paul and the other prophets said perseverance and waiting is required. Jesus said those who are counted worthy will have it in the age to come.

Please Father, don't let any non-Christian , looking for the truth of the good news gospel believe that falsehood.

It's a lie!

Read the gospel those who may be here looking for answers. Whatever you do, don't accept Runningman's ideas as that.

They're false to the core.

 

[Runningman]

See my post above this one.



"THE faith" is "THAT BODY OF TRUTH" (we find in our NT--following Christ's death and resurrection).



It is NOT referencing one's personal "faith / belief / trust" in Christ.

well, if nothing else, you proved my point. You’re trying to change the words to mean something they don’t plainly say.

So about the “body of truth.” Do you know that the gospel of Jesus, the gospel that saves, is in the body of truth. Those who abandon that gospel contained in the body of truth have believed in vain.

what do you say about this verse below?

1 Corinthians 15
2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

And is it not the case that His followers didn't receive the Holy Spirit until AFTER His crucifixion and resurrection?

That's also what John 7:39 informs about:

"Now He said this concerning the Spirit, whom those having believed in Him were about to [or, sure to] receive; for the Spirit was not yet given, because Jesus was not yet glorified."

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

["eternal life"] It has a starting point.

... which, in a different post, you've said is: once we're glorified (basically) we are given eternal life (i.e. not NOW).



"Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that eternal life does not reside in a murderer."

How can this be said ^ ... if, according to you, "eternal life" doesn't presently reside in ANYONE, EVEN BELIEVERS / SAINTS / THE CHURCH WHICH IS HIS BODY... ??

 

[Runningman]

Please Father, don't let any non-Christian , looking for the truth of the good news gospel believe that falsehood.

It's a lie!

Read the gospel those who may be here looking for answers. Whatever you do, don't accept Runningman's ideas as that.

They're false to the core.

I’m a fairly active preacher to non-Christians, but I haven’t lately since I’ve been busy, but thanks for reminding me to start again. It’s definitely one of my callings. Yes, I do inform them about the truth and it’s all for the glory of God.

1 Timothy 4
8For physical training is of some value, but godliness has value for all things, holding promise for both the present life and the life to come.

Dear Father, Your Son said we would face those who speak evil of us for his sake. So I would like to glorify and praise You. I know I have a reward in heaven. Also, to bless those who curse us. Please bless this person, God, for I know we all need mercy and patience. Thank You for being patient and merciful to me, a sinner, in need of Your help. Praise and glory to You forever. May Your will be done. Thank You for the forgiveness I have. In Jesus my Lord and Savior’s name, amen.

 

[TheDivineWatermark]

what do you say about this verse below?

1 Corinthians 15
2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

As I've put in past posts, to "believe in vain" means to LEAVE OFF the vital aspect of "His Resurrection"... as explained further down in the context.

"this gospel" MUST INCLUDE His "resurrection" (this is "the word *I* / PAUL preached unto you"... that which he "received" to preach, vv.3-4)--but some were saying there is no resurrection of the dead.

If Christ was not "resurrected" (as some were saying: there IS no "resurrection" from the dead), then their "faith" (belief) is IN VAIN... they are still in their sins.



But, the fact is, He DID rise out-from the dead... and numerous ppl were witness to this fact, coz they saw Him and interacted with Him after He had risen from the dead (... and even Paul, when Jesus Himself had spoken to him from His position IN HEAVEN / after His ascension/exaltation, Acts 9).

 

[Runningman]

As I've put in past posts, to "believe in vain" means to LEAVE OFF the vital aspect of "His Resurrection"... as explained further down in the context.

"this gospel" MUST INCLUDE His "resurrection" (this is "the word *I* / PAUL preached unto you"... that which he "received" to preach, vv.3-4)--but some were saying there is no resurrection of the dead.

If Christ was not "resurrected" (as some were saying: there IS no "resurrection" from the dead), then their "faith" (belief) is IN VAIN... they are still in their sins.



But, the fact is, He DID rise out-from the dead... and numerous ppl were witness to this fact, coz they saw Him and interacted with Him after He had risen from the dead (... and even Paul, when Jesus Himself had spoken to him from His position IN HEAVEN / after His ascension/exaltation, Acts 9).

The part that is in vain is in the immediate context:

1 Corinthians 15
2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

If you stop believing this then it’s in vain:
1. Christ died for our sins
2. He was buried
3. He was raised on the third day

This is the gospel that must be held firmly to. If it isn’t then they have believed in vain. Or they believed for nothing. That means salvation requires continued belief or it’s lost.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

That’s not exactly it.

Eternal life is never ending and not conditional.

The thing is getting the eternal life, that part is conditional.

Paul and the other prophets said perseverance and waiting is required. Jesus said those who are counted worthy will have it in the age to come.

John said we can know we have it..Jesus said we have it

I pray you one day believe them..

 

[SonLight_Wolf]

... which, in a different post, you've said is: once we're glorified (basically) we are given eternal life (i.e. not NOW).



"Everyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that eternal life does not reside in a murderer."

How can this be said ^ ... if, according to you, "eternal life" doesn't presently reside in ANYONE, EVEN BELIEVERS / SAINTS / THE CHURCH WHICH IS HIS BODY... ??

It's possible they're Roman Catholic.

That would explain their opinion.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The Bible teaches that you can turn away from the truth. No one can take away your salvation, no one can take you from God's hand, but you can walk away.

Luke 9:62
“Jesus replied, ‘No one who puts a hand to the plow and looks back is fit for service in the kingdom of God.’”

1 Timothy 4:1
The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. Abandon means they had faith, they were saved and left the faith.

“Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. At that time many will TURN AWAY from the faith and will betray and hate each other, and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, but he who stands firm to the end will be saved.”
Matthew 24:9-13

Many will turn away from the truth, many. So they had the truth and turned back. He who stands firm, who does not turn back from the faith.


“Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of your evil behavior. But now He has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation– IF indeed you continue in your faith, established and firm, not moved from the hope held out in the gospel. This is the gospel that you heard and that has been proclaimed to every creature under heaven, and of which I, Paul, have become a servant.”
Colossians 1:21-23



“…But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but be afraid. For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either. Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in His kindness. Otherwise, you also will be CUT OFF.”
Romans 11:20-22

“See to it, brothers, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that TURNS AWAY from the living God. But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. We have come to share in Christ if we hold firmly till the end the confidence we had at first.”
Hebrews 3:12-14

Remain in me, and I will remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me. I am the vine; you are the branches. IF a man remains in me and I in him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is THROWN AWAY and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into THE FIRE and burned.”
John 15:1-6

I don't see how anyone could argue OSAS after reading these verses. And there are more. The Bible clearly doesn't teach OSAS.

I can walk away right up until the time I actually recieve his love and experience his salvation.

At that time, I am a new creature. I truly understand who I was. and I learn more and more how deep a sinner I am (was)

no one would turn away after this.

we only turn away, because as John said, we were never of them.