Saints meet your opposition

[cv5]

What he is about is being a purveyor of the truth as to how the bible came to be.

Just wild speculation on my part.....but he if he was not a living eyewitness to all of these supposed long drawn-out historical machinations, deletions, redactions and whatnot, wouldn't that make his theories as specious and apocryphal as those he is criticizing? I mean what makes his word better than the supposed person in the supposed time and place when it was supposedly penned? And more trustwothy than that of the copyist?

Just thinking out loud here, mired in my Stygian ignorance.

 

[cv5]

" If " ?! Why if? The Bible IS the inspired Word of God. Period. You don't believe that, you aren't a Christian. Done, over, fat lady has sung.

I'm just wondering of this fellow has brushed up on his "end-time" eschatology, earnestly, with all sobriety and sincere anticipation.

Or if, on the other hand, he thinks that the writings of God's prophets are nothing more than an ancient, diabolical Jewish conspiracy bent on world domination.

 

[SonLight_Wolf]

Just wild speculation on my part.....but he if he was not a living eyewitness to all of these supposed long drawn-out historical machinations, deletions, redactions and whatnot, wouldn't that make his theories as specious and apocryphal as those he is criticizing? I mean what makes his word better than the supposed person in the supposed time and place when it was supposedly penned? And more trustwothy than that of the copyist?

Just thinking out loud here, mired in my Stygian ignorance.

You think being ignorant is an insult.
OK.

Until you've read Dr. Ehrman so to know what he knows, you are speaking out of ignorance. How do you not know this? You know nothing about the issue but you prattle on condemning what is products of your imagination.

You ignore all the texts that have been found. The fragments. And the scrolls that are being discovered to this day.

You even ignore the differences in accounts of Jesus and his ministry in the gospels themselves.

Clearly Hermeneutics and Apologetics mean nothing to you. Your god is argumentation and stoking conflict.

My first name is cultural and familial as pertains to the wolf. Your wolf has no excuse. Or as you speak here, any place to hide.
Education is nothing to fear. Or mock.

Remember that.

 

[cv5]

You think being ignorant is an insult.
OK.

Until you've read Dr. Ehrman so to know what he knows, you are speaking out of ignorance. How do you not know this? You know nothing about the issue but you prattle on condemning what is products of your imagination.

You ignore all the texts that have been found. The fragments. And the scrolls that are being discovered to this day.

You even ignore the differences in accounts of Jesus and his ministry in the gospels themselves.

Clearly Hermeneutics and Apologetics mean nothing to you. Your god is argumentation and stoking conflict.

My first name is cultural and familial as pertains to the wolf. Your wolf has no excuse. Or as you speak here, any place to hide.
Education is nothing to fear. Or mock.

Remember that.

Wow. That is quite a rant.

I have a couple of questions:
-do you know me personally?
-do you have any idea of the level of my education in these matters?
-do you believe that you are reading my mind right now?

 

[Nehemiah6]

Until you've read Dr. Ehrman so to know what he knows, you are speaking out of ignorance.

Why would any Christian waste his or her time reading the nonsense of an APOSTATE? He is not just an unbeliever or a heretic. This man is an apostate, which means that everyone should carefully scrutinize your posts for errors.

 

[Nehemiah6]

CHuckle!! Victor Weirwille used to teach this lie at the "WAY INTERNATIONAL" HQ in New Knoxville Ohio. That was the first time I'd heard that garbage.

I too remember that false teacher.

 

[Magenta]

Textual criticism is a method used by scholars to decipher the meaning of the original texts
or autographs from the manuscripts. When originals are lost or no longer in existence it is
usually due to the life span of the substance they were written on like papyrus, leather, or
other biodegradable materials. However, that does not mean that we cannot determine what
the originals said based on the tens of thousands of manuscript copies we have to compare,
dating from the fourth century B.C. to the the fifteenth century A.D. for the Old Testament, and
the first to the fifteenth centuries A.D. for the New Testament.

With a multitude of available manuscripts scholars have found many minor and a few somewhat
major differences between them, but textual criticism allows scholars to eliminate the majority
of these differences which are mostly in spelling, grammar, word insertions or deletions by
comparing them with each other. The science of textual criticism has given us 100% certainty
that what we have in our Bibles today is the original vox (meaning) and over 98% for the Old
Testament and 99.5% for the New Testament in verba (words).

Some basic literary terminology in considering the validity of ancient documents:

Autographs are the original physical writings of the document by the author.
Manuscripts are copies of the autographs and are in a first class category of witness texts.
Primary sources are writings that come directly from the event(s) through eyewitnesses and participants.
Secondary sources are written further away in time from the event(s) and come from second hand information that can no longer be disputed by those who were present or alive at the time.
Literary works are usually considered primary sources if written within a generation or century of the event.

The closer the writing is to the event(s) the more reliable the writing becomes.
The more manuscripts you have, even those with errors, the better chance you have of reconstructing the autograph.

How does the Bible compare to other ancient literature?

Number of manuscript copies:

• In the discipline of philosophy:
  • Aristotle’s work has 5 manuscripts dated 1400 years from the events. Updated: 1000 manuscripts dated 1200 years from the events, written 384-322 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 850
  • Plato’s work (Tetralogies) has 210 (previously 7) manuscripts dated 1200 years from the events, written 427-347 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 900.

In the discipline of history:

• Pliny the younger’s work (Letters) has 7 (unconfirmed) manuscripts dated 750 years from the events, written A.D. 61-113, with the earliest copy dated A.D. 850.
• Pliny the Elder (Natural History) has 200 (previously 7) manuscripts, dated 900 years from the events, written A.D. 23-79, with the earliest copy dated A.D. 1000.
• Herodotus’ work has 8 manuscripts dated 1300 years from the events. Updated: 109 manuscripts dated 1350 years from the events, written 480-425 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 900.
• Caesar’s firsthand account of the Gallic Wars has 10 manuscripts, dated 1000 years from the events. Updated: 251 manuscripts, dated 900 years from the events, written 10-44 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 1000.
• Tacitus’ Greek history (Annals) has 20 manuscripts, dated 1000 years from the events. Updated: 33 manuscripts, dated 750 years from the events, written in A.D. 100, with the earliest copy dated A.D. 850.
• Thucydides’ work has 50 manuscripts, dated 1300 years from the events, written 460-400 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 900.
• Sophocles’ work (Tragedies) has 193 manuscripts (previously 100), dated 1200 years from the events, written 496-406 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 900.
• Livy’s work (History of Rome) has 150 manuscripts (previously 19), dated 400 years from the events, written 59 B.C.- A.D. 17, with the earliest copy dated A.D. 400.
• Demosthenes’ Speeches has 340 manuscripts (previously 200), dated 1400 years from the events, written 300 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 1100.

• In second place is Homer’s Iliad, the history of the Trojan War, has 900 manuscripts, dated 950 years from the events. Updated: 1757 manuscripts, dated 400 years from the events, written 800 B.C., with the earliest copy dated 400 B.C.

[*]***In first place is the Bible’s New Testament! The total count for early New Testament Manuscripts available today is over 25,000! (previously 24,000) and Josh McDowell has recently claimed that we have closer to 66,000 with the advent of many discoveries in artifacts, like mummy wrappings, that contain Biblical manuscript fragments. Numbers include:

• 5795 (up from 5366) Greek Manuscripts dated 30 to 150 years from the events, written A.D. 49-95 with the eariest copy dated A.D. 117 (and a few that are possibly dated first century still under review).
• Over 7974 manuscripts in other languages (Armenian, coptic, Gothic, Ethiopian, Syriac, Georgian and Slavic) dated early second century and on (100-150 years)
• Over 10,000 manuscripts in the Latin Vulgate dated from the third century and on (300-350 years)

The Bible, and the New Testament in particular, has only primary source
authors who were eyewitnesses or who were alive at the time of the events.

The New Testament autographs were complete and in use by the end of the first century A.D. and
has surviving manuscripts and fragments dated within 25 to 150 years of the events. source

Compare to historical records of Alexander the Great, who lived 356 BC – 323 BC:

The Histories of Alexander the Great (Latin: Historiae Alexandri Magni) is the only surviving extant
Latin biography of Alexander the Great. It was written by the Roman historian Quintus Curtius Rufus
in the 1st-century AD, but the earliest surviving manuscript comes from the 9th century.

 

[SonLight_Wolf]

Textual criticism is a method used by scholars to decipher the meaning of the original texts
or autographs from the manuscripts. When originals are lost or no longer in existence it is
usually due to the life span of the substance they were written on like papyrus, leather, or
other biodegradable materials. However, that does not mean that we cannot determine what
the originals said based on the tens of thousands of manuscript copies we have to compare,
dating from the fourth century B.C. to the the fifteenth century A.D. for the Old Testament, and
the first to the fifteenth centuries A.D. for the New Testament.

With a multitude of available manuscripts scholars have found many minor and a few somewhat
major differences between them, but textual criticism allows scholars to eliminate the majority
of these differences which are mostly in spelling, grammar, word insertions or deletions by
comparing them with each other. The science of textual criticism has given us 100% certainty
that what we have in our Bibles today is the original vox (meaning) and over 98% for the Old
Testament and 99.5% for the New Testament in verba (words).

Some basic literary terminology in considering the validity of ancient documents:

Autographs are the original physical writings of the document by the author.
Manuscripts are copies of the autographs and are in a first class category of witness texts.
Primary sources are writings that come directly from the event(s) through eyewitnesses and participants.
Secondary sources are written further away in time from the event(s) and come from second hand information that can no longer be disputed by those who were present or alive at the time.
Literary works are usually considered primary sources if written within a generation or century of the event.

The closer the writing is to the event(s) the more reliable the writing becomes.
The more manuscripts you have, even those with errors, the better chance you have of reconstructing the autograph.

How does the Bible compare to other ancient literature?

Number of manuscript copies:

• In the discipline of philosophy:
  • Aristotle’s work has 5 manuscripts dated 1400 years from the events. Updated: 1000 manuscripts dated 1200 years from the events, written 384-322 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 850
  • Plato’s work (Tetralogies) has 210 (previously 7) manuscripts dated 1200 years from the events, written 427-347 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 900.

In the discipline of history:

• Pliny the younger’s work (Letters) has 7 (unconfirmed) manuscripts dated 750 years from the events, written A.D. 61-113, with the earliest copy dated A.D. 850.
• Pliny the Elder (Natural History) has 200 (previously 7) manuscripts, dated 900 years from the events, written A.D. 23-79, with the earliest copy dated A.D. 1000.
• Herodotus’ work has 8 manuscripts dated 1300 years from the events. Updated: 109 manuscripts dated 1350 years from the events, written 480-425 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 900.
• Caesar’s firsthand account of the Gallic Wars has 10 manuscripts, dated 1000 years from the events. Updated: 251 manuscripts, dated 900 years from the events, written 10-44 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 1000.
• Tacitus’ Greek history (Annals) has 20 manuscripts, dated 1000 years from the events. Updated: 33 manuscripts, dated 750 years from the events, written in A.D. 100, with the earliest copy dated A.D. 850.
• Thucydides’ work has 50 manuscripts, dated 1300 years from the events, written 460-400 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 900.
• Sophocles’ work (Tragedies) has 193 manuscripts (previously 100), dated 1200 years from the events, written 496-406 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 900.
• Livy’s work (History of Rome) has 150 manuscripts (previously 19), dated 400 years from the events, written 59 B.C.- A.D. 17, with the earliest copy dated A.D. 400.
• Demosthenes’ Speeches has 340 manuscripts (previously 200), dated 1400 years from the events, written 300 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 1100.

• In second place is Homer’s Iliad, the history of the Trojan War, has 900 manuscripts, dated 950 years from the events. Updated: 1757 manuscripts, dated 400 years from the events, written 800 B.C., with the earliest copy dated 400 B.C.

[*]***In first place is the Bible’s New Testament! The total count for early New Testament Manuscripts available today is over 25,000! (previously 24,000) and Josh McDowell has recently claimed that we have closer to 66,000 with the advent of many discoveries in artifacts, like mummy wrappings, that contain Biblical manuscript fragments. Numbers include:

• 5795 (up from 5366) Greek Manuscripts dated 30 to 150 years from the events, written A.D. 49-95 with the eariest copy dated A.D. 117 (and a few that are possibly dated first century still under review).
• Over 7974 manuscripts in other languages (Armenian, coptic, Gothic, Ethiopian, Syriac, Georgian and Slavic) dated early second century and on (100-150 years)
• Over 10,000 manuscripts in the Latin Vulgate dated from the third century and on (300-350 years)

The Bible, and the New Testament in particular, has only primary source
authors who were eyewitnesses or who were alive at the time of the events.

The New Testament autographs were complete and in use by the end of the first century A.D. and
has surviving manuscripts and fragments dated within 25 to 150 years of the events. source

Compare to historical records of Alexander the Great, who lived 356 BC – 323 BC:

The Histories of Alexander the Great (Latin: Historiae Alexandri Magni) is the only surviving extant
Latin biography of Alexander the Great. It was written by the Roman historian Quintus Curtius Rufus
in the 1st-century AD, but the earliest surviving manuscript comes from the 9th century.

Great post.

 

[SonLight_Wolf]

Why would any Christian waste his or her time reading the nonsense of an APOSTATE? He is not just an unbeliever or a heretic. This man is an apostate, which means that everyone should carefully scrutinize your posts for errors.

How would any Christian cast aspersions against someone who they know nothing about? By your own admission.
But there you go.

 

[Magenta]

Great post.

Thank you

 

[cv5]

Textual criticism is a method used by scholars to decipher the meaning of the original texts
or autographs from the manuscripts. When originals are lost or no longer in existence it is
usually due to the life span of the substance they were written on like papyrus, leather, or
other biodegradable materials. However, that does not mean that we cannot determine what
the originals said based on the tens of thousands of manuscript copies we have to compare,
dating from the fourth century B.C. to the the fifteenth century A.D. for the Old Testament, and
the first to the fifteenth centuries A.D. for the New Testament.

With a multitude of available manuscripts scholars have found many minor and a few somewhat
major differences between them, but textual criticism allows scholars to eliminate the majority
of these differences which are mostly in spelling, grammar, word insertions or deletions by
comparing them with each other. The science of textual criticism has given us 100% certainty
that what we have in our Bibles today is the original vox (meaning) and over 98% for the Old
Testament and 99.5% for the New Testament in verba (words).

Some basic literary terminology in considering the validity of ancient documents:

Autographs are the original physical writings of the document by the author.
Manuscripts are copies of the autographs and are in a first class category of witness texts.
Primary sources are writings that come directly from the event(s) through eyewitnesses and participants.
Secondary sources are written further away in time from the event(s) and come from second hand information that can no longer be disputed by those who were present or alive at the time.
Literary works are usually considered primary sources if written within a generation or century of the event.

The closer the writing is to the event(s) the more reliable the writing becomes.
The more manuscripts you have, even those with errors, the better chance you have of reconstructing the autograph.

How does the Bible compare to other ancient literature?

Number of manuscript copies:

• In the discipline of philosophy:
  • Aristotle’s work has 5 manuscripts dated 1400 years from the events. Updated: 1000 manuscripts dated 1200 years from the events, written 384-322 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 850
  • Plato’s work (Tetralogies) has 210 (previously 7) manuscripts dated 1200 years from the events, written 427-347 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 900.

In the discipline of history:

• Pliny the younger’s work (Letters) has 7 (unconfirmed) manuscripts dated 750 years from the events, written A.D. 61-113, with the earliest copy dated A.D. 850.
• Pliny the Elder (Natural History) has 200 (previously 7) manuscripts, dated 900 years from the events, written A.D. 23-79, with the earliest copy dated A.D. 1000.
• Herodotus’ work has 8 manuscripts dated 1300 years from the events. Updated: 109 manuscripts dated 1350 years from the events, written 480-425 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 900.
• Caesar’s firsthand account of the Gallic Wars has 10 manuscripts, dated 1000 years from the events. Updated: 251 manuscripts, dated 900 years from the events, written 10-44 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 1000.
• Tacitus’ Greek history (Annals) has 20 manuscripts, dated 1000 years from the events. Updated: 33 manuscripts, dated 750 years from the events, written in A.D. 100, with the earliest copy dated A.D. 850.
• Thucydides’ work has 50 manuscripts, dated 1300 years from the events, written 460-400 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 900.
• Sophocles’ work (Tragedies) has 193 manuscripts (previously 100), dated 1200 years from the events, written 496-406 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 900.
• Livy’s work (History of Rome) has 150 manuscripts (previously 19), dated 400 years from the events, written 59 B.C.- A.D. 17, with the earliest copy dated A.D. 400.
• Demosthenes’ Speeches has 340 manuscripts (previously 200), dated 1400 years from the events, written 300 B.C., with the earliest copy dated A.D. 1100.

• In second place is Homer’s Iliad, the history of the Trojan War, has 900 manuscripts, dated 950 years from the events. Updated: 1757 manuscripts, dated 400 years from the events, written 800 B.C., with the earliest copy dated 400 B.C.

[*]***In first place is the Bible’s New Testament! The total count for early New Testament Manuscripts available today is over 25,000! (previously 24,000) and Josh McDowell has recently claimed that we have closer to 66,000 with the advent of many discoveries in artifacts, like mummy wrappings, that contain Biblical manuscript fragments. Numbers include:

• 5795 (up from 5366) Greek Manuscripts dated 30 to 150 years from the events, written A.D. 49-95 with the eariest copy dated A.D. 117 (and a few that are possibly dated first century still under review).
• Over 7974 manuscripts in other languages (Armenian, coptic, Gothic, Ethiopian, Syriac, Georgian and Slavic) dated early second century and on (100-150 years)
• Over 10,000 manuscripts in the Latin Vulgate dated from the third century and on (300-350 years)

The Bible, and the New Testament in particular, has only primary source
authors who were eyewitnesses or who were alive at the time of the events.

The New Testament autographs were complete and in use by the end of the first century A.D. and
has surviving manuscripts and fragments dated within 25 to 150 years of the events. source

Compare to historical records of Alexander the Great, who lived 356 BC – 323 BC:

The Histories of Alexander the Great (Latin: Historiae Alexandri Magni) is the only surviving extant
Latin biography of Alexander the Great. It was written by the Roman historian Quintus Curtius Rufus
in the 1st-century AD, but the earliest surviving manuscript comes from the 9th century.

Because of course Bible manuscripts are considered the most valuable writings in all of human history.

 

[Nehemiah6]

How would any Christian cast aspersions against someone who they know nothing about? By your own admission.

There is a lot of published material about Bart Ehrman and his foolish ideas. Also "Bart" rhymes with something unpleasant. So there you go.

How God became Jesus: Bart Ehrman gets it wrong, again

"It wasn't difficult to anticipate what is by now an utterly predictable narrative. Jesus was not God. He did not think he was God. The myth about Jesus being divine was later invented and got codified at the behest of the Roman Emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea in 325 CE. In many variations of this narrative - thankfully, Ehrman's is not one of them - Constantine, who converted to Christianity around 312 CE, wanted Jesus "made" divine so he could use Christianity as propaganda to keep his empire together: one emperor, one state, one God. As popular as this narrative remains, it is has one fatal flaw - namely, it is demonstrably false."
https://www.abc.net.au/religion/how-god-became-jesus-bart-ehrman-gets-it-wrong-again/10099302

 

[SonLight_Wolf]

There is a lot of published material about Bart Ehrman and his foolish ideas. Also "Bart" rhymes with something unpleasant. So there you go.

How God became Jesus: Bart Ehrman gets it wrong, again

"It wasn't difficult to anticipate what is by now an utterly predictable narrative. Jesus was not God. He did not think he was God. The myth about Jesus being divine was later invented and got codified at the behest of the Roman Emperor Constantine at the Council of Nicea in 325 CE. In many variations of this narrative - thankfully, Ehrman's is not one of them - Constantine, who converted to Christianity around 312 CE, wanted Jesus "made" divine so he could use Christianity as propaganda to keep his empire together: one emperor, one state, one God. As popular as this narrative remains, it is has one fatal flaw - namely, it is demonstrably false."
https://www.abc.net.au/religion/how-god-became-jesus-bart-ehrman-gets-it-wrong-again/10099302

You won't read Ehrman but you'll search for an ultra liberal Anglican just because he slanders his work.
OK.
You're not aware they debated one another.

The Bart rhyming word is juvenile. And unbecoming a Christian.

 

[Runningman]

Thought it be intresting to direct you scripture scholars on the answers this man poses instead of tearing each other apart by personal opinions.
I look for things like this to see what the enemy has been up to. Reading the comments on this post many agree with his observations.
Can anyone here set him straight on his false findings? Or is he right.
The resurrection is the core of our belief. How would you respond? Or do we live by blind faith?

Most of the points he makes leading up to when he finally starts quoting the Bible are just opinion and not really meaningful. The main idea of his argument is to discredit the Bible.

1. The first point is he said that there is a discrepancy between Mark and John about the day Jesus died. I won't give him the benefit of the doubt here because he seems like he did his homework, but he didn't tell the truth... he lied.

Mark 15
42It was Preparation Day (that is, the day before the Sabbath). So as evening approached,

John 19
14It was the day of Preparation of the Passover; it was about noon.

The sources he referenced prove him wrong.

Maybe I'll get to the rest later if I'm in the mood.

 

[pottersclay]

IF our "faith" is BLIND - then it's NOT FAITH AT ALL!!!!!

What is FAITH answer: Heb 11:1. it possesses TWO attributes: SUBSTANCE, and EVIDENCE.

Biblical FAITH is ALWAYS "revelatory" - i.e. GOD'S WORD TO US. Like Abram - God comes to a flea-bitten heathen in the desert and says "Abram - get all your stuff and move away from there, leave your family, friends, and everything, and get moving, I'll tell you where you're going later". direct revelation FROM GOD to ABRAM. the SUBSTANCE of the word came from the one speaking - God's WORD to Abram (Rom 10:17).

WHO GIVES a rosy rodent's posterior what "Ehrman" thinks about anything???? he's obviously "just another" educated fool.

Now now saint anger has no place here...to every man a answer for the hope you have.

 

[Magenta]

Bart starts out with a falsehood.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

I too remember that false teacher.

when his people came to town we all learned to be really careful, since Victor taught that NOTHING that you did in the BODY, affected you Spiritual Condition, and "Wayfers" knew how to "Party down"!!!

 

[swatfrog]

Thank you watchers for that ....have you followed up with that claim to be true?
Id like to develope a defense for these bogas allegations that this bart person has claimed with the saints here that would like to participate.
Anyone with any input to his first claim feel free to post.

In the book , "In Awe of Thy Word " the writer also stated of a page of Mathew in Hebrew, before that even William Tydale in his book , "The Obedience of the Christian Man " says that the translation work from the Hebrew to English is a 1,000 times easier than from the Greek.

 

[pottersclay]

In the book , "In Awe of Thy Word " the writer also stated of a page of Mathew in Hebrew, before that even William Tydale in his book , "The Obedience of the Christian Man " says that the translation work from the Hebrew to English is a 1,000 times easier than from the Greek.

Thanks to you also friend. Will check it out

 

[SteveEpperson]

"Dr. Bart Ehrman Destroys the Crucifixion"

No he doesn't. He, as with others like him, work to seal my faith and inspire me to praise God even more fervently.