Plurality of Shepherds

[ResidentAlien]

That's not really true. Scripture does imply, a single overseer for a local church. Which agrees with the fact that Jesus Christ is the single head of the Universal Church.

1Ti 3:1 πιστος ο λογος ει τις επισκοπης ορεγεται καλου εργου επιθυμει
Faithful is the saying, If a man seeks the office of a bishop, he desires a good work.

This office is "singular" in the Greek. One man - not men, as contrasted with those who would be Deacons or Servants of the church.

The Greek word: επισκοπης is literally translated: "episcopate". However, it comes from a Greek word that means "to watch" or "to go see". Therefore, an "Overseer".

In the letter to Timothy, it is always mentioned in the singular... just one man:
v.1 ".. If a man..." - .."he desires..."
v.2 "The Bishop (Overseer) must be a husband of one wife..."
v.4 "one who rules his house..."
v.5 "But if a man knows not how to rule his house, how shall he take care of the house of God?"

Additionally, these same instructions are given to Titus:

Tit 1:5 For this cause left I thee in Crete, that thou shouldest set in order the things that were wanting, and appoint elders in every city, as I gave thee charge;

Note here - that Titus was to appoint "elders" in every city, not "elders" (plural) to every church but in every city. After this, the instructions are the same as given in 1 Timothy:

Tit 1:7 For the bishop must be blameless, as God's steward; not self-willed, not soon angry, no brawler, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre;
Tit 1:8 but given to hospitality, a lover of good, sober-minded, just, holy, self-controlled;
Tit 1:9 holding to the faithful word which is according to the teaching, that he may be able both to exhort in the sound doctrine, and to convict the gainsayers.

Nothing you've said here demonstrates that the churches had a single head, or leader, of any given congregation. That place belongs to Christ. You've used a lot of words that don't really prove anything.

 

[awelight]

Barnabas, Timothy, Titus, Judas.

Prophets and teachers sent Barnabas. Paul sent Timothy and Titus. The 12 sent Silas and Judas.

I went back through an extensive search of the Scriptures and must take exception to your answer given hear.

While Barnabas was included as an Apostle in Acts 14:14 - no where in the Scriptures does it say that Titus or Timothy was considered an Apostle. Nor does it say, that either performed any miracles.

Also, Judas had the authority of an Apostle - up unto his death - but should not be considered one because he was appointed to betray Christ and was only with them in order to carry out his appointed task.

 

[awelight]

Nothing you've said here demonstrates that the churches had a single head, or leader, of any given congregation. That place belongs to Christ. You've used a lot of words that don't really prove anything.

Then pray tell, give us Scripture that would defend the opposite view.

 

[Blade]

If you believe this OP then can you back up your statement by the word. If its wrong its clearly written in Gods word. Yet so far all you have done is you don't agree. Now if wondered I would search study see what others think and then ask the one in charge.. HELLO Father. Yeah we can ask Him anything in JESUS name He will answer..if we believe.

Some don't like being told what to do or your wrong. If we treat man like this...how do you think we treat God? If we do it to those we see we don't treat the Father better.

 

[Aaron56]

I went back through an extensive search of the Scriptures and must take exception to your answer given hear.

While Barnabas was included as an Apostle in Acts 14:14 - no where in the Scriptures does it say that Titus or Timothy was considered an Apostle. Nor does it say, that either performed any miracles.

Also, Judas had the authority of an Apostle - up unto his death - but should not be considered one because he was appointed to betray Christ and was only with them in order to carry out his appointed task.

Who said they had to do miracles? They didn't even need to write anything...

An apostle is simply one who is sent. The 12 Apostles of the Lamb were witnesses of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.

“Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."

The testimony of 12 Jewish men confirmed an event to be true under their law (Beth Din). That is why Matthias was needed. Peter knew this, as did the dozens of disciples. There were only 12 Apostles of the Lamb.

"Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

Paul left Titus in Crete to set order among the saints and appoint elders.

"For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you..."

Timothy and Silas (Silvanus) wrote the first letter to the Thessalonians with Paul. It is recorded that they are apostles.

"Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ."

The Holy Spirit, through the prophets and teachers, called Barnabas an apostle.

"Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away."

Later, in the same book...

"But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this..."

These things are obvious. In the "black and white" if you will.

How did you come to believe that apostles had to do miracles to be an apostle? It's certainly not a qualification in the scriptures.

 

[awelight]

Who said they had to do miracles? They didn't even need to write anything...

An apostle is simply one who is sent. The 12 Apostles of the Lamb were witnesses of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection.

“Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection."

The testimony of 12 Jewish men confirmed an event to be true under their law (Beth Din). That is why Matthias was needed. Peter knew this, as did the dozens of disciples. There were only 12 Apostles of the Lamb.

"Now the wall of the city had twelve foundations, and on them were the names of the twelve apostles of the Lamb."

Paul left Titus in Crete to set order among the saints and appoint elders.

"For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you..."

Timothy and Silas (Silvanus) wrote the first letter to the Thessalonians with Paul. It is recorded that they are apostles.

"Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ."

The Holy Spirit, through the prophets and teachers, called Barnabas an apostle.

"Now separate to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them.” Then, having fasted and prayed, and laid hands on them, they sent them away."

Later, in the same book...

"But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard this..."

These things are obvious. In the "black and white" if you will.

How did you come to believe that apostles had to do miracles to be an apostle? It's certainly not a qualification in the scriptures.

I did not say that Apostles must do miracles - I said they had not done any.

Titus was not an Apostle nor does Scripture ever say he was. You said:

Paul left Titus in Crete to set order among the saints and appoint elders.

"For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you..."

Yes, Titus was a trusted friend and servant in Christ but Paul never proclaimed him as an Apostle. Nor did Titus need to be to carry out the work assigned. Please show where Titus was called an Apostle by name - the verse you quoted proves nothing.

You said:

Timothy and Silas (Silvanus) wrote the first letter to the Thessalonians with Paul. It is recorded that they are apostles.

"Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ."

Paul was making reference to their past, personal, visit. As such, he makes reference to the Apostles and their authority but this does not mean Timothy was one of them. Indeed, Scripture does not refer to Timothy in this way:

1Co_4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, who shall put you in remembrance of my ways which are in Christ, even as I teach everywhere in every church.

In fact, Paul makes a distinction between himself and Timothy on several occasions:

2Co_1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints that are in the whole of Achaia:

Col_1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

As far as Silas is concerned, he was considered an "elder" among the congregation - a leader - not an Apostle:

Acts 15:22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men out of their company, and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

 

[Aaron56]

I did not say that Apostles must do miracles - I said they had not done any.

Titus was not an Apostle nor does Scripture ever say he was. You said:

Paul left Titus in Crete to set order among the saints and appoint elders.

"For this reason I left you in Crete, that you should set in order the things that are lacking, and appoint elders in every city as I commanded you..."

Yes, Titus was a trusted friend and servant in Christ but Paul never proclaimed him as an Apostle. Nor did Titus need to be to carry out the work assigned. Please show where Titus was called an Apostle by name - the verse you quoted proves nothing.

You said:

Timothy and Silas (Silvanus) wrote the first letter to the Thessalonians with Paul. It is recorded that they are apostles.

"Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ."

Paul was making reference to their past, personal, visit. As such, he makes reference to the Apostles and their authority but this does not mean Timothy was one of them. Indeed, Scripture does not refer to Timothy in this way:

1Co_4:17 For this cause have I sent unto you Timothy, who is my beloved and faithful child in the Lord, who shall put you in remembrance of my ways which are in Christ, even as I teach everywhere in every church.

In fact, Paul makes a distinction between himself and Timothy on several occasions:

2Co_1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother, unto the church of God which is at Corinth, with all the saints that are in the whole of Achaia:

Col_1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus through the will of God, and Timothy our brother,

As far as Silas is concerned, he was considered an "elder" among the congregation - a leader - not an Apostle:

Acts 15:22 Then it seemed good to the apostles and the elders, with the whole church, to choose men out of their company, and send them to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely, Judas called Barsabbas, and Silas, chief men among the brethren:

We are all brothers in Christ. That is not a calling.

An apostle is simply someone who is sent. Let's not make it more than it is.

In Titus' case he was set in place after traveling to Crete.

In 1 Thessalonians, the introduction of the letter is clear: it is written by Paul, Timothy, and Silas (Silvanus). The use of "we" and "us" and "our" all refer to the writers of the letter:

1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,

We give thanks to God always for you all
And you became followers of us and of the Lord,
our coming to you was not in vain
For neither at any time did we use flattering words
Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ.

The whole letter is summed up in chapter 1:

We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers, 3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father, 4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God. 5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.

The men writing the letter were witnesses of the things they are writing about. Why would it be any thing else?
Answer: only to fit an idea that there were only 12 apostles.

Nevertheless, you still have Barnabas to contend with.

But once you have 13 apostles why stop there? With careful reading you'll see another, and another.. soon realizing that 12 was not the limit of apostles. Sure, there were only 12 Apostles of the Lamb (Paul is NOT one). But there were other apostles after that: men who were sent by Paul or others or by God.

Clearly this was a gift that God intended to give to whole church until the end of the era. In my view rejecting the apostolic gift is one reason the church is so fractured; that and the manner in which God build His House: via fathers and sons in Christ. We're content to have converts with no commitment to the newborns' lives. Any wonder why fatherlessness and abortion rule the United States? We're getting the mature plant of the seed that is sewn: fractured families... even the House of God. But that's another topic.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

We are all brothers in Christ. That is not a calling.

An apostle is simply someone who is sent. Let's not make it more than it is.

In Titus' case he was set in place after traveling to Crete.

In 1 Thessalonians, the introduction of the letter is clear: it is written by Paul, Timothy, and Silas (Silvanus). The use of "we" and "us" and "our" all refer to the writers of the letter:

1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,

We give thanks to God always for you all
And you became followers of us and of the Lord,
our coming to you was not in vain
For neither at any time did we use flattering words
Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ.

The whole letter is summed up in chapter 1:

We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers, 3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father, 4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God. 5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.

The men writing the letter were witnesses of the things they are writing about. Why would it be any thing else?
Answer: only to fit an idea that there were only 12 apostles.

Nevertheless, you still have Barnabas to contend with.

But once you have 13 apostles why stop there? With careful reading you'll see another, and another.. soon realizing that 12 was not the limit of apostles. Sure, there were only 12 Apostles of the Lamb (Paul is NOT one). But there were other apostles after that: men who were sent by Paul or others or by God.

Clearly this was a gift that God intended to give to whole church until the end of the era. In my view rejecting the apostolic gift is one reason the church is so fractured; that and the manner in which God build His House: via fathers and sons in Christ. We're content to have converts with no commitment to the newborns' lives. Any wonder why fatherlessness and abortion rule the United States? We're getting the mature plant of the seed that is sewn: fractured families... even the House of God. But that's another topic.

An apostle is simply someone who is sent.

Let's not make it more than it is.

Is it that simple though? The spiritual gifts list apostle. Is being sent a gift?

 

[Aaron56]

Is it that simple though? The spiritual gifts list apostle. Is being sent a gift?

One must ask: who is doing the sending? If one is sent by the Lord they are an apostle. This sending can be confirmed by church leaders or by the Lord Himself. Both examples are found in scripture. And, in both examples, it is assumed that the sending is ultimately the work of the Holy Spirit.

This is why we are charged with testing the spirits.

So, for example, when the Ephesians are given this acknowledgement in Revelation 2:2:

"And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars..."

The issue is not simply asking "Are you John?" since John was the only apostle alive. It is testing the one sent to see if he is truly sent by the Lord or not. The scriptures and the Holy Spirit will confirm this. What the man says will align with scripture.

 

[awelight]

We are all brothers in Christ. That is not a calling.

An apostle is simply someone who is sent. Let's not make it more than it is.

In Titus' case he was set in place after traveling to Crete.

In 1 Thessalonians, the introduction of the letter is clear: it is written by Paul, Timothy, and Silas (Silvanus). The use of "we" and "us" and "our" all refer to the writers of the letter:

1 Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy,

We give thanks to God always for you all
And you became followers of us and of the Lord,
our coming to you was not in vain
For neither at any time did we use flattering words
Nor did we seek glory from men, either from you or from others, when we might have made demands as apostles of Christ.

The whole letter is summed up in chapter 1:

We give thanks to God always for you all, making mention of you in our prayers, 3 remembering without ceasing your work of faith, labor of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ in the sight of our God and Father, 4 knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God. 5 For our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Spirit and in much assurance, as you know what kind of men we were among you for your sake.

The men writing the letter were witnesses of the things they are writing about. Why would it be any thing else?
Answer: only to fit an idea that there were only 12 apostles.

Nevertheless, you still have Barnabas to contend with.

But once you have 13 apostles why stop there? With careful reading you'll see another, and another.. soon realizing that 12 was not the limit of apostles. Sure, there were only 12 Apostles of the Lamb (Paul is NOT one). But there were other apostles after that: men who were sent by Paul or others or by God.

Clearly this was a gift that God intended to give to whole church until the end of the era. In my view rejecting the apostolic gift is one reason the church is so fractured; that and the manner in which God build His House: via fathers and sons in Christ. We're content to have converts with no commitment to the newborns' lives. Any wonder why fatherlessness and abortion rule the United States? We're getting the mature plant of the seed that is sewn: fractured families... even the House of God. But that's another topic.

Ahhh, now I see where you are arguing from... You said:

Clearly this was a gift that God intended to give to whole church until the end of the era.

You believe there are Apostles today thus, denying that one of the criteria for being an Apostle - is being an eye witness of Jesus the Christ.

1Co_9:1 Am I not free? am I not an apostle? have I not seen Jesus our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

Another criteria was being taught by Christ.

Gal 1:11 For I make known to you, brethren, as touching the gospel which was preached by me, that it is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came to me through revelation of Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:17 neither went I up to Jerusalem to them that were apostles before me: but I went away into Arabia; and again I returned unto Damascus.

Were their more than twelve? Yes. Barnabas was one. Paul was one. Matthias replaced Judas.

I take from your stand on the issue, that you are Charismatic. Right?

 

[Aaron56]

Ahhh, now I see where you are arguing from... You said:

Clearly this was a gift that God intended to give to whole church until the end of the era.

You believe there are Apostles today thus, denying that one of the criteria for being an Apostle - is being an eye witness of Jesus the Christ.

1Co_9:1 Am I not free? am I not an apostle? have I not seen Jesus our Lord? are not ye my work in the Lord?

Another criteria was being taught by Christ.

Gal 1:11 For I make known to you, brethren, as touching the gospel which was preached by me, that it is not after man.
Gal 1:12 For neither did I receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came to me through revelation of Jesus Christ.

Gal 1:17 neither went I up to Jerusalem to them that were apostles before me: but I went away into Arabia; and again I returned unto Damascus.

Were their more than twelve? Yes. Barnabas was one. Paul was one. Matthias replaced Judas.

I take from your stand on the issue, that you are Charismatic. Right?

No, I'm not a Charismatic or Pentecostal. IMO, many of those groups should be avoided.

Actually, being a witness of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection was important to the 12 because they were to bear witness of His resurrection to the Jews in that day.

21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

Paul wrote that the Corinthian believers were the seal of his apostleship.

"For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord."

Not that he had seen Christ nor that he worked miracles, etc.

He became God's grace to them and they responded by coming to the Lord. This, to Paul, was the ultimate proof of being sent by the Lord. Even so, it was through the witness of teachers and prophets that Paul was sent as an apostle, along with Barnabas, by the Holy Spirit.

 

[awelight]

No, I'm not a Charismatic or Pentecostal. IMO, many of those groups should be avoided.

Actually, being a witness of Jesus' life, death, and resurrection was important to the 12 because they were to bear witness of His resurrection to the Jews in that day.

21 “Therefore, of these men who have accompanied us all the time that the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from the baptism of John to that day when He was taken up from us, one of these must become a witness with us of His resurrection.”

Paul wrote that the Corinthian believers were the seal of his apostleship.

"For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord."

Not that he had seen Christ nor that he worked miracles, etc.

He became God's grace to them and they responded by coming to the Lord. This, to Paul, was the ultimate proof of being sent by the Lord. Even so, it was through the witness of teachers and prophets that Paul was sent as an apostle, along with Barnabas, by the Holy Spirit.

Wait a minute - are you saying that Paul had not seen Christ or performed miracles???

You said: Not that he had seen Christ nor that he worked miracles, etc.

 

[Aaron56]

Wait a minute - are you saying that Paul had not seen Christ or performed miracles???

You said: Not that he had seen Christ nor that he worked miracles, etc.

I apologize. I could have written it better.

I said he wrote that the saints in Corinth were the seal on his apostleship,

"For you are the seal of my apostleship in the Lord."

not that he did miracles or had seen Christ. He did those things but, to Paul, miracles and seeing Christ was not the seal of his apostleship. The saints were.

 

[Roughsoul1991]

One must ask: who is doing the sending? If one is sent by the Lord they are an apostle. This sending can be confirmed by church leaders or by the Lord Himself. Both examples are found in scripture. And, in both examples, it is assumed that the sending is ultimately the work of the Holy Spirit.

This is why we are charged with testing the spirits.

So, for example, when the Ephesians are given this acknowledgement in Revelation 2:2:

"And you have tested those who say they are apostles and are not, and have found them liars..."

The issue is not simply asking "Are you John?" since John was the only apostle alive. It is testing the one sent to see if he is truly sent by the Lord or not. The scriptures and the Holy Spirit will confirm this. What the man says will align with scripture.

What is your view on the 5-fold ministry?

Was apostle ever an office of leadership position?

How do you interpret this verse?

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God has set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

 

[Aaron56]

What is your view on the 5-fold ministry?

Was apostle ever an office of leadership position?

How do you interpret this verse?

1 Corinthians 12:28 And God has set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

The 5-fold ministry is active until a certain goal is obtained: "till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ"

Here, "we all" pertains to believers in Christ.

Re: the verse "And God has set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues..."

The topic is the body of many members and the diversity of giftings.

"But now indeed there are many members, yet one body."

Paul's point was to establish, in the minds of the believers in Corinth, that all believers are unified into one body of Christ. This was counter to the culture of sectarianism and caste.

The list he provides in the verse is not exhaustive, so I believe he was using them as examples. Even so, we should interpret "first" to mean a measure of order, not of rank. Since the apostles were sent first, and chosen to be the first who would do the work of Christ, and suffer for Him, it serves to understand that other gifts came AFTER the apostles. Different gifts, sure, but not in value to the body, only in diversity.

 

[Aaron56]

Oh, I forgot to add: was "apostle" ever a leadership position?

Sure. The 12 were/are highly regarded. Paul had much influence, and so on.

Today, "“He who receives a prophet in the name of a prophet shall receive a prophet's reward. And he who receives a righteous man in the name of a righteous man shall receive a righteous man's reward."

It makes sense if we receive the grace of an apostle, we will receive his reward. In my experience an apostle's reward will be peace and order, understanding mysteries, and the appreciation of the body of Christ (rejecting sectarianism or anything that divides the body of Christ). Among other things.