Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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It is fascinating how that God chose Greek to give us scripture, and Greek has this tense by which it can speak of things and truths completely independent of time!
Eternal life is life having no dependence on time - because of His faithfulness, whatever God promises may be regarded as certain even while, from a perspective in time, it is temporarily not yet seen.
God says He i will receive eternal life? That is exactly as though i already have it: His word never fails.
Eternal life is life having no dependence on time - because of His faithfulness, whatever God promises may be regarded as certain even while, from a perspective in time, it is temporarily not yet seen.
God says He i will receive eternal life? That is exactly as though i already have it: His word never fails.
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Jesus was speaking of a future event when he referenced eternal life. It comes at the resurrection. All of the prophets agree about this. Check Daniel and the others in the New Testament about when they expect eternal life.
Paul said immortality comes at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15. Jude said to wait to be brought to eternal life. Jesus said eternal life is in the age to come. Peter was in agreement as well.
I encourage you to not hold to denominational traditions and doctrines of the present day church. Just stick with what the Bible says, I’m showing it here and will continue to do so until all questions are answered.
Paul said immortality comes at the last trumpet in 1 Corinthians 15. Jude said to wait to be brought to eternal life. Jesus said eternal life is in the age to come. Peter was in agreement as well.
I encourage you to not hold to denominational traditions and doctrines of the present day church. Just stick with what the Bible says, I’m showing it here and will continue to do so until all questions are answered.
Hold firmly to that belief…. Or else it’s in vain. The condition is holding firmly to the belief or else it’s in vain. Meaning, it’s possible to believe, lose a grip on that belief, and the end result being a loss of belief.
This verse says nothing about a hypothetical scenario of there not being a resurrection. This is about being saved, or a loss thereof, due to apostasy.
1 Corinthians 15
1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
This verse says nothing about a hypothetical scenario of there not being a resurrection. This is about being saved, or a loss thereof, due to apostasy.
1 Corinthians 15
1Now, brothers and sisters, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received and on which you have taken your stand. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.
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At the moment Jesus says this is what He says true?
John 17:11
Now I am no longer in the world
A good rule of thumb in understanding scripture is that if you ever have a position that claims anything Jesus said is ever not true then your position is wrong & you need to get a different position.
When we come to something in scripture that seems like it cannot be true it means we do not understand it correctly. this is good news: it means we get to learn something about Him.
John 17:3
this is eternal life, that they may know You
Do we agree that these conclusions follow from what He said:
If anyone does not have eternal life they do not know Him.
If anyone knows Him they have eternal life.
?
Hold firmly to what belief?
That Christ might have have saved you to eternal life, depending on whether you ever at some point stumble in the tiny little speck of time that is the remainder of your earthly life?
Or the belief that the One Who calls us faithful, and He will do it?
That Christ might have have saved you to eternal life, depending on whether you ever at some point stumble in the tiny little speck of time that is the remainder of your earthly life?
Or the belief that the One Who calls us faithful, and He will do it?
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2 Corinthians 2:17 says, for we are not as many, which corrupt the word of God,.. etc.
The word of God itself cannot be corrupted but it can within the heart.
Again it is written, let not the light that is in you, be (turned into) darkness.
Again it is written concerning the sore sowing the seed, that the word was choked, or corrupted, and causing them to fall away.
The word of God itself cannot be corrupted but it can within the heart.
Again it is written, let not the light that is in you, be (turned into) darkness.
Again it is written concerning the sore sowing the seed, that the word was choked, or corrupted, and causing them to fall away.
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Taking verses out of context is not the way to understand scripture!!
It is an entire letter that is teaching a particular concept, Paul is typically building up his instruction over the course of the letter.
Read further:
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
It is NOT about them holding firmly to their personal salvation but to the reality of what Jesus did, He died and was resurrected, people were doubting the resurrection!!
Paul was warning them if Jesus did not rise from the dead their belief would have been in vain!!
This is very sloppy hermeneutics you engage in, it is so bad I am seriously doubting whether you understand the actual gospel.
It is an entire letter that is teaching a particular concept, Paul is typically building up his instruction over the course of the letter.
Read further:
12 But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13 If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14 And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith.
It is NOT about them holding firmly to their personal salvation but to the reality of what Jesus did, He died and was resurrected, people were doubting the resurrection!!
Paul was warning them if Jesus did not rise from the dead their belief would have been in vain!!
This is very sloppy hermeneutics you engage in, it is so bad I am seriously doubting whether you understand the actual gospel.
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The word that he preached to them, that he is saying is vain belief if they do not hold to it, is that Christ is resurrected.
Resurrection is the whole theme of this passage, it's in vv. 2, 3, 4, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21, 22, 23, 26, 29, 30, 31, 32, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 42, all the way to v. 58
When he's talking about vain belief here he is talking about a wrong belief, specifically a false belief that denies the resurrection.
So this is not a passage about God failing to make good on His promise to save us - it is a passage about how belief that there is no resurrection is false, empty belief.
Resurrection is the whole theme of this passage, it's in vv. 2, 3, 4, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 20, 21, 22, 23, 26, 29, 30, 31, 32, 35, 36, 37, 38, 39, 40, 42, all the way to v. 58
When he's talking about vain belief here he is talking about a wrong belief, specifically a false belief that denies the resurrection.
So this is not a passage about God failing to make good on His promise to save us - it is a passage about how belief that there is no resurrection is false, empty belief.
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No you’re wrong.
If you don’t hold firmly (continue believing in) to the gospel then you lose your salvation and have thus believed in vain. This is what Paul is referring to:
1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
If you don’t hold firmly (continue believing in) to the gospel then you lose your salvation and have thus believed in vain. This is what Paul is referring to:
1 Corinthians 15
3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,
And I’m curious, but I’ll ask this gently because all of us probably have friends and/or family who are not Christian or were, at one time or another, then they committed apostasy.
So I don’t see what the issue is here with just accepting what the Bible says rather than creating these wild theories, redefining words, ignoring context, etc.
So is OSAS a personal pet doctrine to anyone? Would you have to accept someone didn’t make it to salvation because they didn’t hold firmly to the gospel? Perhaps you’re a teacher/pastor and now you’re realizing the full scope of people you’ve misread your entire life and would rather create a false gospel rather than face the reality and repent?
I’m genuinely surprised at some people here, so far off base, they can’t recognize good when they see it. It also deeply concerns me. I wouldn’t be here trying to help if I didn’t care. I pray for you all often and thank you for the curses and evil words against me that I’ve endured for the sake of Christ. You all are making me stronger and better than before. Glory to God.
So I don’t see what the issue is here with just accepting what the Bible says rather than creating these wild theories, redefining words, ignoring context, etc.
So is OSAS a personal pet doctrine to anyone? Would you have to accept someone didn’t make it to salvation because they didn’t hold firmly to the gospel? Perhaps you’re a teacher/pastor and now you’re realizing the full scope of people you’ve misread your entire life and would rather create a false gospel rather than face the reality and repent?
I’m genuinely surprised at some people here, so far off base, they can’t recognize good when they see it. It also deeply concerns me. I wouldn’t be here trying to help if I didn’t care. I pray for you all often and thank you for the curses and evil words against me that I’ve endured for the sake of Christ. You all are making me stronger and better than before. Glory to God.
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If salvation is of grace, by definition it is not contingent upon any effort of the one on whom it is bestowed. If there is subsequent effort to maintain salvation, by definition it no longer grace because it requires something of the individual.
Subsequent requirements may evidence the lack of grace to begin with, but can in no way be required if the transaction was truly grace alone.
Subsequent requirements may evidence the lack of grace to begin with, but can in no way be required if the transaction was truly grace alone.
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*ahem*
iirc....
In a couple of current threads, the context and language of such things as Hebrews 3-4, Matthew 19 and 1 Corinthians 15 has been patiently gone over with you over the past few days by several of our assembly of believers, arguments you rejected in favor of lifting a half of a sentence out of the text with an external definition of a single word divorced from its context, and cling to a wild theory that puts you in a position of saying Jesus Christ ignorantly made false prophecies and promises.
so...
iirc....
In a couple of current threads, the context and language of such things as Hebrews 3-4, Matthew 19 and 1 Corinthians 15 has been patiently gone over with you over the past few days by several of our assembly of believers, arguments you rejected in favor of lifting a half of a sentence out of the text with an external definition of a single word divorced from its context, and cling to a wild theory that puts you in a position of saying Jesus Christ ignorantly made false prophecies and promises.
so...
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same to you.
So how should we resolve this? I don’t know, personally.
I pray and come back hoping something changed. I know God is hearing my prayers, but it may be to do with the fertility of the soil so to speak. God doesn’t just force them to divorce what they want to believe. Actually, God seems to turn people over to whatever path they want to follow given enough rebellion. Maybe it’s too late. I hope not.
So how should we resolve this? I don’t know, personally.
I pray and come back hoping something changed. I know God is hearing my prayers, but it may be to do with the fertility of the soil so to speak. God doesn’t just force them to divorce what they want to believe. Actually, God seems to turn people over to whatever path they want to follow given enough rebellion. Maybe it’s too late. I hope not.