Conclusion From Beware the Pseudo-Rapture Doctrine 4
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[end ^ of TDW's questions to JPT]
YAY! YAY! YAY! I feel we are making some headway!! (on parts we AGREE on!)
GREAT!
Allow me to focus in on the parts of your post that (as I am in agreement with you on these) I've bolded and colored, in order to make my next point (in the form of a question, for this post)... then we can go from there... one step at a time.
So here's my next question (besides a question I left for you at the bottom of my Post #270 and the ones I put in my Post #282, that go along with this discussion)...
here's my first question (on what you put in your post, above, in the quote ^ ):
Okay, you and I agree that the rider on the white horse (at Seal #1) [AS BEING "the man of sin be revealed"] is what takes place first in the "spans of time" [intervening] before he is later "destroyed" at the MANIFESTATION of His "presence / parousia / coming" (in Rev19)... So far, we are in agreement on these points. YAY!! (V.8a does NOT take place at the same time-slot that v.8b takes place. GREAT! We agree! We even agree that the "be revealed" re: the man of sin takes place AT SEAL #1. WOOT! I perceive some headway in this discussion! )
Now (here's the question I'm addressing in this post)...
In the 2Th2 text, do you see anything (per the text) that must immediately precede the "be revealed" regarding "the man of sin":
--v.3 "[...] [unless/if not] shall have come _____[blank] FIRST/FIRSTLY, *and* shall have been revealed the man of sin/anomias..."
--v.6 "[now ye know] what is restraining, SO THAT he may be revealed in his time"
--vv.7b-8a "the one restraining at present will restrain UNTIL out of the midst he become, AND THEN [kai tote] shall that wicked be revealed..."
Do you agree that these verses show something that PRECEDES the "be revealed" of the man of sin?
YAY! YAY! YAY! I feel we are making some headway!! (on parts we AGREE on!)
GREAT!
Allow me to focus in on the parts of your post that (as I am in agreement with you on these) I've bolded and colored, in order to make my next point (in the form of a question, for this post)... then we can go from there... one step at a time.
So here's my next question (besides a question I left for you at the bottom of my Post #270
and the ones I put in my Post #282, that go along with this discussion)...here's my first question (on what you put in your post, above, in the quote ^ ):
Okay, you and I agree that the rider on the white horse (at Seal #1) [AS BEING "the man of sin be revealed"] is what takes place first in the "spans of time" [intervening] before he is later "destroyed" at the MANIFESTATION of His "presence / parousia / coming" (in Rev19)... So far, we are in agreement on these points. YAY!! (V.8a does NOT take place at the same time-slot that v.8b takes place. GREAT! We agree! We even agree that the "be revealed" re: the man of sin takes place AT SEAL #1. WOOT! I perceive some headway in this discussion!
)Now (here's the question I'm addressing in this post)...
In the 2Th2 text, do you see anything (per the text) that must immediately precede the "be revealed" regarding "the man of sin":
--v.3 "[...] [unless/if not] shall have come _____[blank] FIRST/FIRSTLY, *and* shall have been revealed the man of sin/anomias..."
--v.6 "[now ye know] what is restraining, SO THAT he may be revealed in his time"
--vv.7b-8a "the one restraining at present will restrain UNTIL out of the midst he become, AND THEN [kai tote] shall that wicked be revealed..."
Do you agree that these verses show something that PRECEDES the "be revealed" of the man of sin?
2 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (NKJV)
You can read the passage for yourself. Since they are put in this order, I am inclined to believe the falling away occurs before the revelation of the man of sin. The falling away is similarly worded to Paul's statement to Timothy that in the last days, many shall depart from the faith.
This whole section also aligns well with Matthew 24 where we read that the love of many shall wax cold (compare to the departure/falling away/apostasy in the passage under discussion) followed by the abomination of desolation standing in the holy place (compare with the man of the sin in the temple of God declaring himself that he is God). These things must happen before the day of Christ, which Paul just describes right before it by saying 'the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you ', which is also is described at length in chapter 1.
This interpretation does not require imagining an additional return of Christ and placing the rapture at this additional return of Christ which is not taught in scripture.
II Thessalonians 2
Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you,
8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming. (NKJV)
Let me ask you. Do the destruction of the man of sin and the gathering of the church and the gathering of the saints/church both occur at the coming of the Lord?
What Biblical justification can you offer for the idea that there are two coming of the Lord events?
The reason the saints can accompany the Lord as he descends at His coming is because they rise to meet Him in the air at His coming? Do you disagree?
I Thessalonians 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (NKJV)
II Thessalonians 2:8 tells us that the Lord will destroy the lawless one at the brightness of His coming.
What evidence do you present FROM SCRIPTURE that there is more than one coming of the Lord that we are to wait for. Jesus taught His disciples to be ready for the coming of the Son of Man which He taught would occur AFTER the tribulation in Matthew 24.
Can you show me in that passage or anywhere else in the Bible where the Lord said that He would come before the tribulation, that He is returning twice, or that there is a pretribulational rapture. If the Bible teaches it, this should be very easy to simply quote the scriptures that indicate this. If you have no answer to this question, you should stop with your smug attitude and accusations and humble yourself enough to learn from the scriptures.
I Thessalonians 4
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. (NKJV)
II Thessalonians 2:8 tells us that the Lord will destroy the lawless one at the brightness of His coming.
What evidence do you present FROM SCRIPTURE that there is more than one coming of the Lord that we are to wait for. Jesus taught His disciples to be ready for the coming of the Son of Man which He taught would occur AFTER the tribulation in Matthew 24.
Can you show me in that passage or anywhere else in the Bible where the Lord said that He would come before the tribulation, that He is returning twice, or that there is a pretribulational rapture. If the Bible teaches it, this should be very easy to simply quote the scriptures that indicate this. If you have no answer to this question, you should stop with your smug attitude and accusations and humble yourself enough to learn from the scriptures.
I've been in situation before where someone referred me to a Perry Stone video supposedly to prove the pretrib rapture. Perry Stone offered no evidenced at all for it. Instead, he just went through Ii Thessalonians 2, explaining what pretribbers think it means, eisegeting in this idea of two returns of Christ (or however they explain it) and just _assuming_ a pretrib rapture with no evidence for it all from scripture.
28 minutes is a lot of time to put into one post. What point do you think Perry stone makes in this video that proves, from scripture, the idea that Jesus comes back twice or that the rapture occurs before the tribulation? The big problem with the pretrib viewpoint is that it assumes a pretrib rapture and return of Christ before the tribulation and interprets verses around that, rather than offering any solid evidence.
'Proofs' for the pre-trib rapture are light arguments like implying 'God has not appointed unto wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ' (cutting off the latter portion of that verse) means that the church has to be raptured or it would experience wrath. But this implies that God is angry at the saints who are here during the tribulation. And don't they also experience salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. There are many 'micro-arguments' like this for pretrib. One argument, as bizarre and allegorical as it is coming from those who insist on literal interpretation, is that John being told 'come up hither' means that the church will be raptured at that point early in the book of Revelation. THAT as an argument to try to prove back that Jesus comes back earlier than scripture says?
Matthew 24 also shows Jesus instructing His own disciples to be ready for the coming of the Son of man AFTER the tribulation.
Pretribbers use a lot of verses clearly set AFTER the tribulation (great tribulation at that) as if they were pretrib verses--- one shall be taken and the other left, the days of Noah, and no man knows the day or the hour. In context, these are about the coming of the Son of man which happens AFTER the tribulation.
28 minutes is a lot of time to put into one post. What point do you think Perry stone makes in this video that proves, from scripture, the idea that Jesus comes back twice or that the rapture occurs before the tribulation? The big problem with the pretrib viewpoint is that it assumes a pretrib rapture and return of Christ before the tribulation and interprets verses around that, rather than offering any solid evidence.
'Proofs' for the pre-trib rapture are light arguments like implying 'God has not appointed unto wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ' (cutting off the latter portion of that verse) means that the church has to be raptured or it would experience wrath. But this implies that God is angry at the saints who are here during the tribulation. And don't they also experience salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. There are many 'micro-arguments' like this for pretrib. One argument, as bizarre and allegorical as it is coming from those who insist on literal interpretation, is that John being told 'come up hither' means that the church will be raptured at that point early in the book of Revelation. THAT as an argument to try to prove back that Jesus comes back earlier than scripture says?
Matthew 24 also shows Jesus instructing His own disciples to be ready for the coming of the Son of man AFTER the tribulation.
Pretribbers use a lot of verses clearly set AFTER the tribulation (great tribulation at that) as if they were pretrib verses--- one shall be taken and the other left, the days of Noah, and no man knows the day or the hour. In context, these are about the coming of the Son of man which happens AFTER the tribulation.
Wow! I admit I am a little slow, but 3 minutes to study/learn/understand a
Very Complicated Bible Doctrine? Surely somebody must be kidding, right?:
In my Very S-L-O-W study, it took me 18 months to process ALL Parts
(Words Of The LORD Jesus) Pertaining to our Great Grace Departure:
1) God's PEACE, Receiving HIS Holy Spirit For "understanding!"
2a) Which Bible?
2b) Excellent Bible study rules!
3) Three 'Ages' Rightly Divided = God's Timelines!
4) Which "Gospel" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?
5) Great Tribulation OR tribulations/departure?
6) Great Grace Departure Expectations!
7) God's Heavenly UPlook For HIS Body!!
8) "Looking, Watching, And Patiently Waiting for our Blessed Hope!!!
9) he "who withholdeth/hindereth" Until "taken Out!"
10) Comparing: Day Of CHRIST vs Day Of The LORD!
12) Christ Will Come/Gather With 'NO Warning'!
13) The Two 'Trumps' Of God In His 'Age of Grace'!!
14) Christ 'Gathering' us to 'Meet HIM In The Air!!!
15) Preparation for Judgment For the Entire Body Of Christ.
16) Post Departure Deception!
17) 'Rightly Divided' Conclusion:
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II
------------------------
Amen!
Yes, 'very easy work' for Many lightening-FAST 3-minute critics
to declare "There is NO pre-trib!" But VERY few who are willing
to get together and take SOME [hard and Difficult] TIME to study
ALL of The [Rightly Divided] Words Of The LORD Jesus Christ About
This Important Sound Doctrine, eh?
-----------------------------------------------
Precious friend(s):
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!
Very Complicated Bible Doctrine? Surely somebody must be kidding, right?:
In my Very S-L-O-W study, it took me 18 months to process ALL Parts
(Words Of The LORD Jesus) Pertaining to our Great Grace Departure:
1) God's PEACE, Receiving HIS Holy Spirit For "understanding!"
2a) Which Bible?
2b) Excellent Bible study rules!
3) Three 'Ages' Rightly Divided = God's Timelines!
4) Which "Gospel" Makes Way For Which "Gospel"?
5) Great Tribulation OR tribulations/departure?
6) Great Grace Departure Expectations!
7) God's Heavenly UPlook For HIS Body!!
8) "Looking, Watching, And Patiently Waiting for our Blessed Hope!!!
9) he "who withholdeth/hindereth" Until "taken Out!"
10) Comparing: Day Of CHRIST vs Day Of The LORD!
{ Also The Day Of God! }
11) Confidence in death/resurrection, OR in living/glorification12) Christ Will Come/Gather With 'NO Warning'!
13) The Two 'Trumps' Of God In His 'Age of Grace'!!
14) Christ 'Gathering' us to 'Meet HIM In The Air!!!
15) Preparation for Judgment For the Entire Body Of Christ.
16) Post Departure Deception!
17) 'Rightly Divided' Conclusion:
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II
------------------------
Amen!
Yes, 'very easy work' for Many lightening-FAST 3-minute critics
to declare "There is NO pre-trib!" But VERY few who are willing
to get together and take SOME [hard and Difficult] TIME to study
ALL of The [Rightly Divided] Words Of The LORD Jesus Christ About
This Important Sound Doctrine, eh?
-----------------------------------------------
Precious friend(s):
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!
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Pretrib only works out if pretrib is used as the standard.
In reality The Bible is the standard and pretrib cannot be found in it.
Jesus "immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days"
Oyster "Your post-trib rapture theory just does not pan out"
In reality The Bible is the standard and pretrib cannot be found in it.
Jesus "immediately AFTER THE TRIBULATION of those days"
Oyster "Your post-trib rapture theory just does not pan out"
i remember hearing it back in the early seventies it was the opposite then most people just realized it’s not in line with the Bible and what Jesus said.
the truth is he promised the church they would have to endure it of persecution and tribulation and if the y held strong through it he would gather them at the end of the world like a harvest Jesus parables explain all this clearly for believers who hear him
The parable
“Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field:
but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way.
But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.
So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him,
Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them.
Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.”
Matthew 13:24-30 KJV
The explaination of the parable
“He answered and said unto them, He that soweth the good seed is the Son of man; the field is the world;
the good seed are the children of the kingdom;
but the tares are the children of the wicked one;
the enemy that sowed them is the devil;
the harvest is the end of the world;
and the reapers are the angels.
As therefore the tares are gathered and burned in the fire; so shall it be in the end of this world. The Son of man shall send forth his angels, and they shall gather out of his kingdom all things that offend, and them which do iniquity; and shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Then shall the righteous shine forth as the sun in the kingdom of their Father. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,”
Matthew 13:37-43, 49 KJV
There’s really no doctrine that ever questions or changes it it always supports what Jesus said
“teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you alway, even unto the end of the world. Amen.”
Matthew 28:20 KJV
“Again, the kingdom of heaven is like unto a net, that was cast into the sea, and gathered of every kind: which, when it was full, they drew to shore, and sat down, and gathered the good into vessels, but cast the bad away. So shall it be at the end of the world: the angels shall come forth, and sever the wicked from among the just,”
Matthew 13:47-49 KJV
a there’s a harvest day set for all people it’s this day that will happen Paul’s just helping us understand Jesus words better
“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”
1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 KJV
That’s the harvest day Jesus was talking about this same day when the tares are cast into the fire
“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
when he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe in that day.”
2 Thessalonians 1:7-10 KJV
Its a single day moment an instant
“Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.”
1 Corinthians 15:50-52
Jesus teachkngs about this stuff is always supported by the apostles writings it’s not even a question really pre tribulation rapture is an invention from mis understood scripture . The epistles are explaining all those parable Jesus the lord taught and enduring whatever tribulation comes until the end is part of what he taught and a pre trib rapture isnt part of what he or his apostles taught it came about by people later looking to soften and humanize the doctrine
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“Apparently you ignore The Dozens Of Scriptures presented to you, and then
make your textual criticism, correct?”
ive been asking for those scriptures but instead I get responses like yours
a show me all those scriptures that explain a pre trib rapture but don’t do anything g or take anything away d claim you have some secret knowledge that’s not there nd claim your rightly dividing the word
a you only say that because the word doesn’t say there’s any pre tribulation rapture your answer has to be “ well it doesn’t mean what it says I know how to rightly divide the word “
a I’ll wait for you to show me those scriptures you just claimed are plentiful if you find any let me know
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Mark 13:24, 26-
if that said “ immediately before the tribulation I’m going to gather my elect “ that would be your proof but because it says what it says “ you rightly divide the word “ in other words jesus is wrong about what he said and you’ll explain it “rightly “
make your textual criticism, correct?”
ive been asking for those scriptures but instead I get responses like yours
a show me all those scriptures that explain a pre trib rapture but don’t do anything g or take anything away d claim you have some secret knowledge that’s not there nd claim your rightly dividing the word
a you only say that because the word doesn’t say there’s any pre tribulation rapture your answer has to be “ well it doesn’t mean what it says I know how to rightly divide the word “
a I’ll wait for you to show me those scriptures you just claimed are plentiful if you find any let me know
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.”
Mark 13:24, 26-
if that said “ immediately before the tribulation I’m going to gather my elect “ that would be your proof but because it says what it says “ you rightly divide the word “ in other words jesus is wrong about what he said and you’ll explain it “rightly “
I have no clue if P.S. (in Ruby123's video) was saying such (that "our Rapture" is found ANYWHERE in Jesus' Olivet Discourse--it ISN'T; That simply was NOT the Subject Jesus was covering ANYWHERE in His Olivet Discourse), so if he was saying that in his video, I as a pre-tribber would thoroughly DISAGREE with such a notion.
Each of these ^ that you mention ARE INDEED set in the CONTEXT of His Second Coming... to the earth, at Rev19... but NONE of them ^ are about "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"
(same with their parallel passages I've listed out before, such as the parallel of Matthew 24:42-51 with that of Luke 12:35-36,37,38,40,42-44 and its saying "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN "the MEAL [G347]"... etc etc...)
We've already covered several times in this thread:
--the one that is "taken" is "taken away IN JUDGMENT"--just as in Noah's day; the other that is "LEFT" is "LEFT" on the earth (not "taken") to ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies capable of reproducing / bearing children--just as in Noah's day (Dan2:35c / Gen9:1 "[actively] FILL / FILLED the [whole] earth");
--the days of Noah (ditto the above);
--"of that day and hour KNOWETH [perfect indicative] no man" (not even Jesus at the time spoken);
where the "PERFECT tense" is not conveying that "no one CAN EVER know" nor "WILL EVER know";
In fact, some "60+ YEARS" later, AFTER Jesus' ascension and exaltation, we see Him saying in the first verse of Revelation (95ad) "The Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (see "SHEW" starting in 4:1 re: the FUTURE aspects of the book; see also "servants of our God" in 7:3 )
and IN THAT BOOK He supplies [/DISCLOSES] numerous timing-indicators and time-stamps, that when laid out (in study) can be plotted on a calendar (evidencing the "2520 days" / "7 yrs" precisely);
This corresponds with other passages showing the same sequence matters also.
Of course His Olivet Discourse is covering the Subject of His Second Coming to the earth... which is AFTER the tribulation of those days (after the GREAT Trib, IOW). We agree on this point.
Where we DISAGREE is that Jesus is covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" anywhere in His Olivet Discourse (He's NOT; and the only other thing He covers briefly in it, is the "70ad events," in several verses in Lk21, namely verses 12-24a,b--that's it.)
I just went through your brief list, showing you that those three listed items ARE INDEED about His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age
(aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" aka "the MEAL [G347]" when He will "RETURN FROM the wedding"... CONSISTENT with what we see written of in Rev19:9, as distinct from 19:7 ; and I trust the serious Bible students will take their own Bible and LOOK UP the passages I've referenced in this post, in my attempt at keeping posts as short as possible. LOL)
The fact that some "pre-tribbers" do not grasp this fact, can indeed cause some confusion for others (and again, I didn't watch the video, so I cannot say whether or not "P.S." says such).
Recall also that Matthew STARTS OFF with "the beginning of birth PANGS" (which I'm saying is EQUIVALENT to the SEALS of Rev6), which is what takes place AFTER "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"... so EVERYTHING from Matt24:4 onward is what takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" ("Rapture" is NOT the Subject Jesus is covering ANYWHERE in His Olivet Discourse... and we've discussed several times in this thread that the "one taken, the other LEFT" is NOT a "rapture" reference!)
Each of these ^ that you mention ARE INDEED set in the CONTEXT of His Second Coming... to the earth, at Rev19... but NONE of them ^ are about "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"
(same with their parallel passages I've listed out before, such as the parallel of Matthew 24:42-51 with that of Luke 12:35-36,37,38,40,42-44 and its saying "when he will RETURN FROM the wedding"... THEN "the MEAL [G347]"... etc etc...)
We've already covered several times in this thread:
--the one that is "taken" is "taken away IN JUDGMENT"--just as in Noah's day; the other that is "LEFT" is "LEFT" on the earth (not "taken") to ENTER the MK age in their mortal bodies capable of reproducing / bearing children--just as in Noah's day (Dan2:35c / Gen9:1 "[actively] FILL / FILLED the [whole] earth");
--the days of Noah (ditto the above);
--"of that day and hour KNOWETH [perfect indicative] no man" (not even Jesus at the time spoken);
where the "PERFECT tense" is not conveying that "no one CAN EVER know" nor "WILL EVER know";
In fact, some "60+ YEARS" later, AFTER Jesus' ascension and exaltation, we see Him saying in the first verse of Revelation (95ad) "The Revelation of Jesus Christ WHICH GOD GAVE UNTO HIM [unto Jesus] TO SHEW UNTO His servants things which must come to pass IN QUICKNESS [NOUN]" (see "SHEW" starting in 4:1 re: the FUTURE aspects of the book; see also "servants of our God" in 7:3
) and IN THAT BOOK He supplies [/DISCLOSES] numerous timing-indicators and time-stamps, that when laid out (in study) can be plotted on a calendar (evidencing the "2520 days" / "7 yrs" precisely);
This corresponds with other passages showing the same sequence matters also.
Of course His Olivet Discourse is covering the Subject of His Second Coming to the earth... which is AFTER the tribulation of those days (after the GREAT Trib, IOW). We agree on this point.
Where we DISAGREE is that Jesus is covering the Subject of "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]" anywhere in His Olivet Discourse (He's NOT; and the only other thing He covers briefly in it, is the "70ad events," in several verses in Lk21, namely verses 12-24a,b--that's it.)
I just went through your brief list, showing you that those three listed items ARE INDEED about His Second Coming to the earth FOR the promised and prophesied EARTHLY Millennial Kingdom age
(aka "the wedding FEAST/SUPPER" aka "the MEAL [G347]" when He will "RETURN FROM the wedding"... CONSISTENT with what we see written of in Rev19:9, as distinct from 19:7
; and I trust the serious Bible students will take their own Bible and LOOK UP the passages I've referenced in this post, in my attempt at keeping posts as short as possible. LOL)The fact that some "pre-tribbers" do not grasp this fact, can indeed cause some confusion for others (and again, I didn't watch the video, so I cannot say whether or not "P.S." says such).
Recall also that Matthew STARTS OFF with "the beginning of birth PANGS" (which I'm saying is EQUIVALENT to the SEALS of Rev6), which is what takes place AFTER "our Rapture [IN THE AIR]"... so EVERYTHING from Matt24:4 onward is what takes place FOLLOWING "our Rapture" ("Rapture" is NOT the Subject Jesus is covering ANYWHERE in His Olivet Discourse... and we've discussed several times in this thread that the "one taken, the other LEFT" is NOT a "rapture" reference!)
Disagree.
His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19) is ONE of the MANY THINGS that take place IN "the day of the Lord" TIME-PERIOD, which time-period stretches clear from the START of the 7-yr Trib and on through to the END of the Millennial Kingdom age (the 1000 years); When the phrase "IN THAT DAY" is used in same contexts where "the DOTL" is being spoken of, they refer to the SAME TIME-PERIOD (which is very lengthy).
So, depending on CONTEXT, a passage covers one or more aspects of this very lengthy time-period ("the DOTL"). Let's be careful not to adopt the incorrect "definitions" supplied by the "Amil-teachings" and so forth, and really examine scripture itself to ascertain biblical definitions.
It is not merely "a singular 24-hr day" (the 24-hr day of Christ's Second Coming in Rev19); Paul in 1Th5:1-3 clearly shows that it ARRIVES "exactly as [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman... and we know that it is NOT just "ONE and DONE" when it comes to birth pangs... MANY MORE follow on from that INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" Paul refers to when speaking of its (the DOTL's) ARRIVAL point in time... which fact (its ARRIVAL) corresponds with Jesus' words in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 (the FIRST item in His listing out of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]") which is "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' bringing deception]"... which corresponds with the "whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA" 2Th2:9a of "the man of sin" which DOES NOT occur at Christ's Second Coming (Rev19), but WELL-PRIOR to that point, and WELL-PRIOR TO the AOD even;
Paul also covers these SEQUENCE ISSUES in 2Th2.
His Second Coming to the earth (Rev19) is ONE of the MANY THINGS that take place IN "the day of the Lord" TIME-PERIOD, which time-period stretches clear from the START of the 7-yr Trib and on through to the END of the Millennial Kingdom age (the 1000 years); When the phrase "IN THAT DAY" is used in same contexts where "the DOTL" is being spoken of, they refer to the SAME TIME-PERIOD (which is very lengthy).
So, depending on CONTEXT, a passage covers one or more aspects of this very lengthy time-period ("the DOTL"). Let's be careful not to adopt the incorrect "definitions" supplied by the "Amil-teachings" and so forth, and really examine scripture itself to ascertain biblical definitions.
It is not merely "a singular 24-hr day" (the 24-hr day of Christ's Second Coming in Rev19); Paul in 1Th5:1-3 clearly shows that it ARRIVES "exactly as [hosper]" the INITIAL "birth PANG [SINGULAR]" that comes upon a woman... and we know that it is NOT just "ONE and DONE" when it comes to birth pangs... MANY MORE follow on from that INITIAL "birth PANG [singular]" Paul refers to when speaking of its (the DOTL's) ARRIVAL point in time... which fact (its ARRIVAL) corresponds with Jesus' words in Matt24:4 / Mk13:5 (the FIRST item in His listing out of "the beginning of birth PANGS [PLURAL]") which is "A CERTAIN ONE [G5100 - tis - 'A CERTAIN ONE' bringing deception]"... which corresponds with the "whose COMING / ADVENT / ARRIVAL / PRESENCE / PAROUSIA" 2Th2:9a of "the man of sin" which DOES NOT occur at Christ's Second Coming (Rev19), but WELL-PRIOR to that point, and WELL-PRIOR TO the AOD even;
Paul also covers these SEQUENCE ISSUES in 2Th2.
So here's my next question (besides a question I left for you at the bottom of my Post #270 and the ones I put in my Post #282, that go along with this discussion)...
and the ones I put in my Post #282, that go along with this discussion)...
I'd meant... my question (for @presidente ) at the bottom of my Post #269 not #270 (besides the questions in Post #282)
About the "HARVEST" (at "the end [singular] of the age [singular]") issue.
As I've said in past posts, there is MORE THAN ONE "harvest" in Scripture (and in nature); and there is MORE THAN ONE "firstfruit" in Scripture (and in nature).
Just because Jesus was covering the Subject of the "WHEAT" harvest, in Matthew 13 (and notice the Subject is, in v.24, "the kingdom OF THE heavenS"<--which is earthly-located), doesn't mean that there is only ONE "harvest";
Again, in Lev23 there are TWO distinct mentions of "firstfruit"... and the SECOND mention is in v.17, where it is speaking of the "WHEAT" harvest and says of it, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (<--those are not references to/descriptions of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" / US, the "ONE BODY"); Lev23:17 corresponds with the wording in Rev14:4 (re: "the 144,000" as "firstfruit" of THAT one), but the EARLIER mention of "firstfruit" in Lev23 is DISTINCT from the one in v.17...
The "WHEAT" harvest (v.17 of Lev23) is harvested by means of a "tribulum" (a harvesting implement); the EARLIER harvest is harvested by means of "TOSSING UP INTO THE AIR" and "BLOWING away the chaff"
As I've said in past posts, there is MORE THAN ONE "harvest" in Scripture (and in nature); and there is MORE THAN ONE "firstfruit" in Scripture (and in nature).
Just because Jesus was covering the Subject of the "WHEAT" harvest, in Matthew 13 (and notice the Subject is, in v.24, "the kingdom OF THE heavenS"<--which is earthly-located), doesn't mean that there is only ONE "harvest";
Again, in Lev23 there are TWO distinct mentions of "firstfruit"... and the SECOND mention is in v.17, where it is speaking of the "WHEAT" harvest and says of it, "TWO loaves" and "baken WITH LEAVEN" (<--those are not references to/descriptions of "the Church WHICH IS HIS BODY" / US, the "ONE BODY"); Lev23:17 corresponds with the wording in Rev14:4 (re: "the 144,000" as "firstfruit" of THAT one), but the EARLIER mention of "firstfruit" in Lev23 is DISTINCT from the one in v.17...
The "WHEAT" harvest (v.17 of Lev23) is harvested by means of a "tribulum" (a harvesting implement); the EARLIER harvest is harvested by means of "TOSSING UP INTO THE AIR" and "BLOWING away the chaff"
Precious friend, I have done this Several times; IF you don't investigate/study
the 'links' given, then that is between you and God, ok. So, we'll try:
a small portion (ELEVEN Scriptures) of God's Word Of Truth, 'Right Divided':
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I:
...The Second Coming, According to earthly Prophecy:
(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 19:16, 11!)
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II:
...According to The Heavenly Mystery!:
(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians 1:19-23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17!)
----------
Exactly HOW then is this "OUTSIDE of, OR misunderstood (wrongly
DIVIDED) Scriptures?
====================
Precious friend(s):
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!
the 'links' given, then that is between you and God, ok. So, we'll try:
a small portion (ELEVEN Scriptures) of God's Word Of Truth, 'Right Divided':
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I:
...The Second Coming, According to earthly Prophecy:
(1) Immediately After tribulation/4 signs, CHRIST, In His
Prophesied Second Advent, As KING Of kings, And LORD Of lords,
Is Coming From Heaven! (Matthew 24:29; Revelation 19:16, 11!)
Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II:
...According to The Heavenly Mystery!:
(1) Immediately After GRACE Has ENDED/ZERO signs!:
CHRIST, As Head Of His Body, The Church, Will Descend From
Heaven! (Ephesians 1:19-23; Colossians 1:18; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17!)
----------
Exactly HOW then is this "OUTSIDE of, OR misunderstood (wrongly
DIVIDED) Scriptures?
====================
Precious friend(s):
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!
He doesn't say rapture. He doesn't mention the gathering up into the air. He mentions the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven, and the gathering of the elect, but the fact that the rapture involves catching up the saints into the air is mentioned in Paul's writings, in I Thessalonians 4, not Matthew 24.
But we should understand eschatology by looking at what Jesus and the apostles taught and understanding all that together without bringing in some idea that isn't taught anywhere in scripture, the idea that Jesus comes back twice, that the rapture that occurs at the coming of the Lord actually occurs seven years before the 'coming of the Lord' the other passages on the topic are talking about.
That's the problem with pre-trib. The Bible does not teach a pretrib rapture. You cannot open to a passage and show me where the Bible teaches that there are two returns of Christ or that a rapture occurs before the tribulation. You have to assume it first, then try to read it into different passages.
The man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's coming (I Thes. 2:8.). The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture of they along with the remaining saints occurs at the coming of the Lord. Assuming the Rider on the horse passage is about the coming of the Lord (which we both agree), then Revelation 19 mentions both the coming of the Lord and the beast being cast into the lake of fire. It goes on in chapter 20 to talk about the first resurrection. The word 'rapture' is not mentioned in Revelation 19, but other things that accompany the coming of the Lord, like the rapture does, are mentioned.
What you do is take this theory which is external to scripture, this pretrib rapture idea and insist it occurs earlier.
Again, please show me the pre-trib rapture in the Bible.
You aren't explicit, so I will have to guess that you are trying to tie this in to the marriage supper of the Lamb. But that does NOT work. Why?
Because the audience in Matthew 24 are Jesus' own disciples. Based on another passage we might assume this is Peter, Andrew, James, and John specifically. In any case, it is his own disciples. In Luke 12, Jesus addresses the 'little flock'.
If these passages are indeed parallel, why would Jesus tell His disciples to be waiting for his return as servants after a wedding? Jesus disciples, the type of people like Peter, Andrew, James, and John... that category of people will be raptured. Peter, etc. will go up in the rapture. But the disciples of Jesus are to be waiting after the Son of man returns AFTER the tribulation. This is evidence AGAINST pre-trib, not in favor of it.
And if you had some actual scripture that showed or indicated that a pretrib rapture would occur or that there are two separate coming of the Lord events, your implied wedding argument might make more sense, but it does not work because these passages, at least the Matthew one, are clearly for Jesus' disciples.
But we should understand eschatology by looking at what Jesus and the apostles taught and understanding all that together without bringing in some idea that isn't taught anywhere in scripture, the idea that Jesus comes back twice, that the rapture that occurs at the coming of the Lord actually occurs seven years before the 'coming of the Lord' the other passages on the topic are talking about.
That's the problem with pre-trib. The Bible does not teach a pretrib rapture. You cannot open to a passage and show me where the Bible teaches that there are two returns of Christ or that a rapture occurs before the tribulation. You have to assume it first, then try to read it into different passages.
The man of sin is destroyed at the brightness of the Lord's coming (I Thes. 2:8.). The resurrection of the dead in Christ and the rapture of they along with the remaining saints occurs at the coming of the Lord. Assuming the Rider on the horse passage is about the coming of the Lord (which we both agree), then Revelation 19 mentions both the coming of the Lord and the beast being cast into the lake of fire. It goes on in chapter 20 to talk about the first resurrection. The word 'rapture' is not mentioned in Revelation 19, but other things that accompany the coming of the Lord, like the rapture does, are mentioned.
What you do is take this theory which is external to scripture, this pretrib rapture idea and insist it occurs earlier.
Again, please show me the pre-trib rapture in the Bible.
You aren't explicit, so I will have to guess that you are trying to tie this in to the marriage supper of the Lamb. But that does NOT work. Why?
Because the audience in Matthew 24 are Jesus' own disciples. Based on another passage we might assume this is Peter, Andrew, James, and John specifically. In any case, it is his own disciples. In Luke 12, Jesus addresses the 'little flock'.
If these passages are indeed parallel, why would Jesus tell His disciples to be waiting for his return as servants after a wedding? Jesus disciples, the type of people like Peter, Andrew, James, and John... that category of people will be raptured. Peter, etc. will go up in the rapture. But the disciples of Jesus are to be waiting after the Son of man returns AFTER the tribulation. This is evidence AGAINST pre-trib, not in favor of it.
And if you had some actual scripture that showed or indicated that a pretrib rapture would occur or that there are two separate coming of the Lord events, your implied wedding argument might make more sense, but it does not work because these passages, at least the Matthew one, are clearly for Jesus' disciples.
I have seen a couple of bait and switch Perry Stone videos on the topic. The poster says Perry Stone has a video that proves pretrib from the Bible.
I clicked on it and then I go to a video where he does not prove pre-trip but instead he just assumes pre-trip and explains versus around his theory. 30 minutes is a lot of time to invest so I asked for a minute marker.
I clicked on it and then I go to a video where he does not prove pre-trip but instead he just assumes pre-trip and explains versus around his theory. 30 minutes is a lot of time to invest so I asked for a minute marker.