Was Simon the Sorcerer saved?

mailmandan · Jan 14, 2023

Yes they do. Ephesians 1:13 - In Him you also trusted, after you heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation; in whom also, having believed, you were sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

Paul asked them in verse 2 if they had received the Holy Spirit when they believed and their answer in verse 3 reveals that they were not yet believers. They had received the baptism of John but did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed. Paul gave them instructions about Jesus and after they believed Paul's presentation of the gospel and came to saving faith, they were then baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus. Paul laid hands on them to receive the Holy Spirit (which was not the case in Acts 2 and Acts 10). It did signify their inclusion into the church. Apostles were also present when the Samaritans (chapter 8) were included. God's purpose was to emphasize unity in the church.

There is a reason for that and this was an exception and not the rule/standard for all. Receiving the indwelling Holy Spirit was delayed until the apostles laid their hands on them because there was animosity that existed between Jews and Samaritans, so it may very well have been essential for the Samaritans to receive the Holy Spirit in the presence of the Jews by the apostles for the purpose of confirmation that God has accepted the Samaritans in the body of Christ and for maintaining a unified church.

posthuman · Jan 14, 2023

Wansvic said:

My comment included the mention that the spiritual rebirth of the NT was not available to people until after Jesus' death, burial and resurrection.

The "we" spoken of pertains to those proclaiming the beginning of the gospel; John the Baptist, et al. (Mark 1) The need to accept the counsel of God by being water baptized in accordance with one's belief in the soon coming Messiah. The message as referenced by John the Baptist indicated Jesus would be baptizing with the Holy Ghost. Scripture confirms this outpouring of the Holy Ghost did not occur until after Jesus was glorified. It occurred on the Day of Pentecost. (Acts 2) It was at Pentecost as well that water baptism was modified to included the use of the name of the Lord Jesus for remission of sin in association with His death, burial and resurrection. (Acts 2:38-42) As such, the reality of being born of water and Spirit became a reality for those living in the New Testament era.

God has demanded different acts of obedience from mankind in various dispensations of time. All relevant to Jesus; the promised Messiah.

How did John see the kingdom of God if John can only see the kingdom of God by being born of the Spirit?

posthuman · Jan 14, 2023

studentoftheword said:

You believe Simon Peter refused to pray for Simon?

Why?

1 Peter 4:8
above all things have fervent love for one another, for "love will cover a multitude of sins."

Do you believe Simon Peter to be a hypocrite?

posthuman · Jan 14, 2023

studentoftheword said:

No evidence of this in scripture. In fact, evidence to the contrary, for it says he "believed" and speaking of his practice of sorcery, it says "previously"

Is your position that God cannot save anyone who has ever practiced sorcery?

studentoftheword · Jan 14, 2023

posthuman said:

A Big Fat--------- NO -------why is he a hypocrite?------

Jesus was alive and Prayed for Peter to Keep His Faith in tact -------Jesus only did what His Father told Him to do ------

God the Father used Peter to bring about His plan of Salvation --but Made sure he would be able to come back to the sheep Fold --------Peter's heart was with God -------and God The Father gave Satan permission to sift Peter -----so His Will would be manifested

Jesus was not there for Simon the magician -----

Simon was Satan's already -----and Simon was driven by Satan Himself to infiltrate the Church -------Simon heart was never with God in the first place ------his heart was with Satan ------

Satan can parade as an angel of Light -----but his light is deceptive ------Simon's belief and baptism was deceptive ---it was a false belief ----and a false baptism ------it was Satan driven -all the way ------

studentoftheword · Jan 14, 2023

posthuman said:

They have to change their ways and their thinking ------they need to repent ----that is the first step in the Salvation process ======

Simon did not Repent of his ways --he wanted to continue in his ways and wanted the Power that Philip and Peter had as well and was willing to pay for it -------

Satan says to Simon -------go after the Power --make them think you believe ---and make them think your receive your baptism ------then offer them money to lay hands on you to get the power ----Money buys everything in life ----Money has the power to but the needed Power ----------

Money is Satan's Hook and is his power to keep people in his deceitful bondage ------

God says this ======

posthuman · Jan 14, 2023

studentoftheword said:

why would Simon refuse to pray for Simon?
if you say those whose hearts are at dome discrete moment not right with God ((e.g. Simon Peter, Simon, you, me)) are only saved by the prayers of others,
then where in the text do you find evidence that Simon Peter would never pray for Simon?

does our LORD make intercession for you?
why?
do you deserve it?

why would Simon say, "Repent of this wickedness and pray to the Lord in the hope of forgiveness"
if Simon believes that God will never forgive Simon, nor even hear his prayer at all?

your position makes Acts 8:22 sarcasm rather than an earnest chastisement: which would in turn cast Simon Peter as a hypocrite, because the apostle advises us that earnest love covers sin, yet your stance on this requires Simon Peter to be duplicitously expressing mockery instead.

posthuman · Jan 14, 2023

studentoftheword said:

the text of Acts 8 gives every indication that Simon did this.
as for unbelief, it is written he "believed"
as for his practice of sin, it is written "previously"

yet you assert he did not believe, and that he continued in sorcery.
do you not believe the text?

studentoftheword · Jan 14, 2023

Your Position is human understanding --not Spiritual understanding

And That is How I See That----

studentoftheword · Jan 14, 2023

posthuman said:

Again ---your Spiritual understanding is limited---that is how I see that ------

posthuman · Jan 14, 2023

studentoftheword said:

your impugnment of my character neither answers my questions nor changes what the text says.

the text explicitly says Simon believed.
the text explicitly says Simon was baptized.
the text explicitly says Simon left his home behind and continued on with Philip.
these things are a death sentence for Simon: Acts 8 opens with describing how Saul was persecuting the church relentlessly at this time.

the text says Simon was rebuked for doctrinal error.
the text says Simon Peter advised him to repent & pray for forgiveness.
the text says Simon asked Simon Peter to pray for him.

and that's all the text says.
i see no basis in the text for your assertions that Simon never believed, that Simon continued to practice sorcery, nor that Simon Peter would refuse Christ's personal command directly to him ((Matthew 18:21-22)), and i challenge them. i see the text in fact directly opposing the first 2, and Peter's own writings at great odds with what your position would require his character to be.

Cameron143 · Jan 14, 2023

posthuman said:

your impugnment of my character neither answers my questions nor changes what the text says.

the text explicitly says Simon believed.
the text explicitly says Simon was baptized.
the text explicitly says Simon left his home behind and continued on with Philip.
these things are a death sentence for Simon: Acts 8 opens with describing how Saul was persecuting the church relentlessly at this time.

the text says Simon was rebuked for doctrinal error.
the text says Simon Peter advised him to repent & pray for forgiveness.
the text says Simon asked Simon Peter to pray for him.

and that's all the text says.
i see no basis in the text for your assertions that Simon never believed, that Simon continued to practice sorcery, nor that Simon Peter would refuse Christ's personal command directly to him ((Matthew 18:21-22)), and i challenge them. i see the text in fact directly opposing the first 2, and Peter's own writings at great odds with what your position would require his character to be.

Wisdom may just be to take the cool spy glasses and get your decoder ring somewhere else.

studentoftheword · Jan 14, 2023

posthuman said:
your impugnment of my character neither answers my questions nor changes what the text says.

But that is just it ----the scripture doesn't say what you think it says ----your spiritual understanding is limited -----your human understanding is in the forefront -------

The Bible is a Spiritual Book for Spiritual People who rely on the Holy Spirit to direct them to the truth of scripture ----

You see there are 2 lens that one reads the scripture with ---The Human lens and The Spiritual Lens ----

Your Comments are telling on you --and revealing where you are ---your still reading the Scripture with the Human lens -----

Short Video on seeing God's word through the right lens ---

God's Glasses - Inspirational Videos

Cameron143 · Jan 14, 2023

I guess the Eagles were right...you can't hide your lying eyes.

Wansvic · Jan 15, 2023

mailmandan said:

The verse in Ephesians references hearing the word of truth, the gospel of their salvation. Those who place their trust in Jesus and believe and obey the gospel of salvation will be sealed with the Holy Ghost. Scripture confirms the gospel includes the need to repent and be baptized in water in the name of the Jesus for remission of sin. Peter promised those who believe and obey SHALL receive the Holy Ghost as well.

Paul's question, "Have you received the Holy Ghost since you believed?" had no bearing on the Ephesians status as believers. The question, in and of itself, confirms receiving the Holy Ghost does not instantly occur upon one's belief in the gospel message. As mentioned this is seen in the account of the Samaritans as well. (Acts 8:12-18) The group believed the message, and submitted to being water baptized in Jesus' name, yet they did not receive the Holy Ghost until days later.

Your animosity conclusion concerning the laying on of hands doesn't make sense. Paul also laid hands on the 12 individuals in the Acts 19 account.

The detailed spiritual rebirth accounts show that belief and obedience to the entire gospel message applies to everyone. All groups/individuals of humanity were required to obey God's plan of salvation in association with Jesus' sacrifice. (Acts 2:36-42, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16) God's truth is always established by at least 2-3 witnesses. (Matt. 18:16)

mailmandan · Jan 15, 2023

Wansvic said:

Ephesians 1:13 simply says BELIEVE and says nothing about water baptism. Also, we obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” We believe the gospel by trusting in the death, burial and resurrection of Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation. (Romans 1:16; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4)

Paul was simply asking a question and apparently was not sure of their believing/non believing status until they answered his question. Just because receiving the Holy Spirit was delayed in the account in Acts 8:12-18 and Acts 19:1-7 does not mean it was delayed for all believers. (Exception, not the rule)

It makes perfect sense what I shared with you in regards to Acts 8:16-17. When Paul laid hands on these 12 individuals in Acts 19, they also spoke in tongues and prophesied. In Acts 10, we see that when these Gentile believers received the Holy Spirit, they spoke in tongues and magnified God. This was a sign to the Jews that God had accepted these Gentiles into the body of Christ, yet nothing is mentioned about the laying on of hands before these Gentiles received the Holy Spirit. They simply believed in Him (Acts 10:43-47) in order to receive the Holy Spirit BEFORE water baptism. Nothing is mentioned about the laying on of hands in the account of receiving the Holy Spirit in Acts 2 either.

When you say, "obedience to the entire gospel message" that is code for AND WORKS. The false gospel of 'salvation by water baptism' is your pet doctrine.

In Acts 2:38, "for the remission of sins" does not refer back to both clauses, "you all repent" and "each one of you be baptized," but refers only to the first. Peter is saying "repent unto the remission of your sins," the same as in Acts 3:19. The clause "each one of you be baptized" is parenthetical. This is exactly what Acts 3:19 teaches except that Peter omits the parenthesis.

*Also compare the fact that these Gentiles in Acts 10:45 received the gift of the Holy Spirit (compare with Acts 2:38 - the gift of the Holy Spirit) and this was BEFORE water baptism (Acts 10:47).

In Acts 10:43 we read ..whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins. Again, these Gentiles received the gift of the Holy Spirit - Acts 10:45 - when they believed on the Lord Jesus Christ - Acts 11:17 - (compare with Acts 16:31 - Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved) BEFORE water baptism - Acts 10:47. This is referred to as repentance unto life - Acts 11:18.

*So the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

Excellent article on Acts 22:16 - https://kentbrandenburg.blogspot.com/2015/03/acts-2216-baptism-essential-for.html

Locoponydirtman · Jan 15, 2023

Its really not for us to say. He isn't mentioned any further so who knows. His final recorded words to Peter appear to be repentance, but there is nothing more written about it.

Wansvic · Jan 16, 2023

mailmandan said:

Having faith/believing in Jesus Christ is proven by one's obedience to His word. And in regards to the NT spiritual rebirth man's obligation is to repent, and be water baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sin. God provides the gift of the infilling of the Holy Spirit as He wills to those willing to believe and obey the gospel message. The sequence has no bearing on the result. However, all components of the rebirth are required as confirmed by the detailed records in the biblical record.

What you shared about apostles Peter and John needing to lay hands on those in Acts 8:16-17 because of the animosity between Jews and Samaritans is not accurate. As an apostle himself, Philip could have "remedied the problem" through the laying on of hands. Clearly God used the experience to clarify the point that people do not instantly receive the Holy Ghost upon believing the message, and confirmed it with the Acts 19 account. This truth is consistent with the 2-3 witnesses required to establish biblical truth.

Acts 10:43 states plainly that it is through Jesus' name that those who believe in Him shall receive remission of sins. What command was associated with the name of the Lord Jesus? The answer. Peter commanded the group to be baptized in water in the name of the Lord Jesus. The group obeyed the command just as the Jews did at Pentecost. (Acts 2:36-42) And as stated by the Jewish Counsel, they too, received repentance until life having their sins remitted in association with Jesus' sacrifice.

Pay close attention to Peter's comment in Acts 11:17-18. It was after the Gentiles were filled with the Holy Ghost that he pointed out that not administering water baptize to the group would be to withstand God. As such the group believed and obeyed Peter's command thus fulfilling their obligation along with being filled with the Holy Ghost that granted them repentance until life.

"Forasmuch then as God gave them the like gift as he did unto us, who believed on the Lord Jesus Christ; what was I, that I could withstand God?
When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, Then hath God also to the Gentiles granted repentance unto life." Acts 11:17-18

Wansvic · Jan 16, 2023

mailmandan said:

For clarification, I do not state that salvation is by water baptism. What I do share, is that water baptism is a necessary part of the NT spiritual rebirth, along with the need to be filled with the Holy Ghost. (Rom. 8:9) Peter's initial presentation of the gospel of the Lord Jesus to the Jews, and afterward presented to all, included these commands relative to the spiritual rebirth whether people wish to accept it or not. (Acts 2:36-42, 8:12-18, 10:43-48, 19:1-7, 22:16) Obedience to water baptism does not automatically provide the infilling of the Holy Ghost. The experiences are independent of one another as witnessed from scripture.

mailmandan · Jan 17, 2023

Wansvic said:

Proven or demonstrated yes, but not established. We are saved by faith/believing in Jesus Christ at it's origin and not at some time later, after we accomplish multiple acts of obedience/works.

The new birth precedes water baptism and is signified, but not procured in the waters of baptism.

Believe AND obey the gospel? We obey the gospel by choosing to believe the gospel. *Romans 10:16 - But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed our report?” You turn "obey" the gospel into "salvation by works" after we believe the gospel.

According to your eisegesis, but not actually.

Sure it is and it makes perfect sense.

More eisegesis. In the account in Acts 19, they had not so much as heard whether there is a Holy Spirit and were not yet believers, which explains why they have not received the Holy Spirit. They did not realize that Jesus Christ was the One to whom John's baptism pointed and still needed a gospel presentation from Paul. The laying on of hands in order for them to receive the Holy Spirit (just as in Acts 8) was the exception and not the rule for everyone. People do receive the Holy Spirit upon believing the gospel message (John 3:37-39; Acts 10:43-47; 11:17; 15:7-9; Ephesians 1:13). Every Christian that I know (including myself) has received the Holy Spirit the very moment we believed the gospel.

Acts 10:43 - Of Him all the prophets bear witness that through His name everyone who believes in Him "apart from a additions or modifications" receives forgiveness of sins. Water baptism "followed" believing in Him and receiving the Holy Spirit and salvation. (Acts 10:43-48) So once again, the only logical conclusion when properly harmonizing Scripture with Scripture is that faith in Jesus Christ "implied in genuine repentance" (rather than water baptism) brings the remission of sins and the gift of the Holy Spirit (Luke 24:47; Acts 2:38; 3:19; 5:31; 10:43-47; 11:17,18; 15:8,9; 16:31; 26:18). *Perfect Harmony*

The evidence is overwhelming that these Gentles believed, received the gift of the Holy Spirit, spoke in tongues, magnified God, and were saved and a part of the body of Christ before they were water baptized. Certain Jews may have wanted to forbid them from being baptized because of their unacceptance of the Gentiles, but Peter clearly states that SURELY NO ONE CAN REFUSE. (Acts 10:47) These Gentiles were clearly SAVED BEFORE WATER BAPTISM and the Holy Spirit was proof of this.

Romans 8:9 - But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. If one has received the Holy Spirit they "belong" to Christ. To belong to Christ does not describe the condition of a lost unbeliever but a saved believer - such was the case of these Gentiles before they were water baptized.

1 John 4:13 - By this we know that we abide in Him, and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. Because they received the Holy Spirit, these Gentiles abided in God and God abided in them. To abide in God and to have God abide in you does not describe the condition of a lost unbeliever but a saved believer - such was the case of these Gentiles before they were water baptized.

Before they were water baptized, these Gentiles spoke in tongues and magnified God (Acts 10:46). This New Testament gift is for those "in" not "out of" the church, which is Christ's body (Colossians 1:18,24). Therefore, by having this New Testament gift, these Gentiles were already "in" the body of Christ before they were water baptized. We do not receive the gift of tongues, which is only for the body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:4-12), without first receiving the gift of the Holy Spirit (indwelling, regenerating presence of the Holy Spirit). We don't receive "a" gift of the Holy Spirit until we first receive "the gift of the Holy Spirit" and these Gentiles clearly received the gift of the Holy Spirit before they were baptized.

Repentance unto life (implied in believes in Him in Acts 10:43 - repent/change of mind/new direction of this change of mind/believes in Him) preceded water baptism. Just as we read in Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ.

Was Simon the Sorcerer saved?

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