Does God desire the salvation of all mankind?

[Bob-Carabbio]

Total depravity is the fallen state of human beings as a result of original sin. The doctrine of total depravity
asserts that people are, as a result of the fall, not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind,
and strength, but rather are inclined by nature to serve their own will and desires and reject his rule. source

Of course the whole business of "Original SIN" is another myth. Adam's nature NEVER CHANGED he had a HUMAN NATURE before he sinned, and he had the same nature afterwards. You, I and Jesus have the SAME NATURE Adam had, and we follow James 1:14, and 15 to the letter - drawn away of our OWN LUST, and enticed (by guess who).

 

[Cameron143]

Of course the whole business of "Original SIN" is another myth. Adam's nature NEVER CHANGED he had a HUMAN NATURE before he sinned, and he had the same nature afterwards. You, I and Jesus have the SAME NATURE Adam had, and we follow James 1:14, and 15 to the letter - drawn away of our OWN LUST, and enticed (by guess who).

How do you explain Psalm 51:5...in sin did my mother conceive me...?

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

How do you explain Psalm 51:5...in sin did my mother conceive me...?

No problem - your mother was a SINNER, just like mine, and in the OLD TESTAMENT, NOBODY was cleansed of their Sin. That never occurred until Calvary.

 

[Cameron143]

No problem - your mother was a SINNER, just like mine, and in the OLD TESTAMENT, NOBODY was cleansed of their Sin. That never occurred until Calvary.

I appreciate the response. So what exactly did happen when Adam and Eve sinned? What were the consequences?

 

[WillB]

Read the post RM and I exchanged 909. And we are talking total depravity, which is the issue.

But I'm allowed to ask my own questions just as you are, am I not?

And my question to you is can you offer a distinction between sin and depravity and provide examples?

 

[justpassinthrough]

I appreciate the response. So what exactly did happen when Adam and Eve sinned? What were the consequences?

The consequences were that sin spread to all mankind.


Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. Romans 5:18

 

[WillB]

Sin is the transgression of the Law. Depravity is the inability to do anything righteous. Only evil. And Calvinistic Total Depravity from TULIP is just baloney.

Do you agree that the Law i.e. that given by God through Moses is the perfect standard of morals which we humans would keep IF we were sinless?

And would you agree that we sinful humans are incapable of keeping that righteous Law and therefore in our natural i.e fallen state we are not righteous and are by nature evil?

Did not Jesus when speaking to His disciples say that 'you who are evil'? And if they were evil, are you and me and anyone else better?

So, do please explain just how you are so sure that total depravity is "baloney"?

 

[Cameron143]

The consequences were that sin spread to all mankind.


Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the free gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. Romans 5:18

Thanks for the response. I was asking for a friend.

 

[Cameron143]

Sin is the transgression of the Law. Depravity is the inability to do anything righteous. Only evil. And Calvinistic Total Depravity from TULIP is just baloney.

Depravity is actually the tendency towards self and not God. It's the reason we are to love others as ourselves. We already do what we believe is in our self interest. This tendency didn't exist before sin. Before, nothing was done through strife and vain glory but in lowliness of mind, others were preferred first.

 

[Magenta]

Of course the whole business of "Original SIN" is another myth. Adam's nature NEVER CHANGED he had a HUMAN NATURE before he sinned, and he had the same nature afterwards. You, I and Jesus have the SAME NATURE Adam had, and we follow James 1:14, and 15 to the letter - drawn away of our OWN LUST, and enticed (by guess who).

We are born after Adam, not after Christ. That is why we must be born again. Jesus said so

A proclivity to sinful, self-willed conduct is the state of the natural man. Original sin is the
Christian doctrine that holds that humans inherit a tainted nature in need of regeneration.

It seems you deny the need of regeneration, though. You call it a fantasy.

 

[Magenta]

Adam's nature NEVER CHANGED

And yet after sinning, their eyes were opened; Adam and Eve became fearful, and sought to hide from God.

That looks like a change in their nature to me...

 

[kaylagrl]

But I'm allowed to ask my own questions just as you are, am I not?

And my question to you is can you offer a distinction between sin and depravity and provide examples?

But I'm allowed to make my point aren't I ? Your question is one you have a pat answer to or you wouldn't be asking it now would you? The Bible in no way teaches TD. Sin, yes. TD no.

 

[WillB]

But I'm allowed to make my point aren't I ? Your question is one you have a pat answer to or you wouldn't be asking it now would you? The Bible in no way teaches TD. Sin, yes. TD no.

Of course you are allowed to make your points.

When you respond asserting that I have "a pat answer etc" this indicates to me your defensiveness that you may not be able to answer my legitimate questions...and the fact that you haven't given any explanation but simply made very bold statements is further evidence that you may not be able to answer those questions.

And if you can't offer explanations then it's the case that you have a dogmatic view and not a position that can be reasonably explained.

So, you really need to address that issue and if you can't or won't do so you may just want to examine what it is you believe and why you believe what you believe.

By the way, what is a "pat" answer?

 

[Cameron143]

Of course you are allowed to make your points.

When you respond asserting that I have "a pat answer etc" this indicates to me your defensiveness that you may not be able to answer my legitimate questions...and the fact that you haven't given any explanation but simply made very bold statements is further evidence that you may not be able to answer those questions.

And if you can't offer explanations then it's the case that you have a dogmatic view and not a position that can be reasonably explained.

So, you really need to address that issue and if you can't or won't do so you may just want to examine what it is you believe and why you believe what you believe.

By the way, what is a "pat" answer?

Pat should be able to answer for him or herself. Stop stealing Pat's answers.

 

[Nehemiah6]

Depravity is actually the tendency towards self and not God.

That is not exactly what Calvinists believe.

 

[Nehemiah6]

And would you agree that we sinful humans are incapable of keeping that righteous Law and therefore in our natural i.e fallen state we are not righteous and are by nature evil?

This is a common misconception. No one can keep the Law PERFECTLY and all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

But even the Gentiles who do not have the Law can do righteous deeds. Thus saith the Holy Spirit through Paul:

ROMANS 2: TOTAL DEPRAVITY IS TOTALLY FALSE
10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;
13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:
15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another,
16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.

 

[Cameron143]

That is not exactly what Calvinists believe.

You are correct when you say this because there is as much difference between Calvinists as there is for Baptists. But the basic tenets of Calvin have been greatly distorted as to be often unrecognizable. Most posters who speak of Calvinism are woefully unfamiliar with it. They are merely passing on information they have received
Everyone is open to constructive criticism, as is Calvin. I'm not a Calvinist. My objection is that people aren't taking the time to learn and make judgment based on what someone has actually proffered, and not what they heard somewhere.
I've read your posts. We don't always agree but I respect that you haven't come to your beliefs haphazardly, but by much prayer and study. I just think on this particular subject you could be better informed.

 

[HeIsHere]

You are correct when you say this because there is as much difference between Calvinists as there is for Baptists. But the basic tenets of Calvin have been greatly distorted as to be often unrecognizable. Most posters who speak of Calvinism are woefully unfamiliar with it. They are merely passing on information they have received
Everyone is open to constructive criticism, as is Calvin. I'm not a Calvinist. My objection is that people aren't taking the time to learn and make judgment based on what someone has actually proffered, and not what they heard somewhere.
I've read your posts. We don't always agree but I respect that you haven't come to your beliefs haphazardly, but by much prayer and study. I just think on this particular subject you could be better informed.

It has be said, "Calvin didn't know what Calvin believed."

His writings do reflect a meandering theology.

 

[Cameron143]

It has be said, "Calvin didn't know what Calvin believed."

His writings do reflect a meandering theology.

Meandering suggests you get there. It just takes longer and seems generally more enjoyable. What you sacrifice in time is compensated in quality of life.

 

[HeIsHere]

Meandering suggests you get there. It just takes longer and seems generally more enjoyable. What you sacrifice in time is compensated in quality of life.

True, bad choice of words on my part.

More like "inconsistent."