Does God desire the salvation of all mankind?

[Bob-Carabbio]

Another question that might be considered is whether someone in OT times needed to be born again and whether His indwelling is necessary for salvation?

NOBODY in the Old Testament was "Saved" in the contemporary sense, since that wouldn't become possible until John 20:22

NOBODY went to heaven in the Old Testament, but were held in the place of the "faithful" (Abraham's bosom) until the Resurrection, when their SIN could finally be cleansed, and REMOVED (Instead of only being "Covered temporarily" which was all the Temple worship was capable of).

 

[Magenta]

No "Conundrum" at all except the one created by "Man's Theology". God CAN, and DOES speak to, and motivate anybody He wants, any time he wants, in whatever WAY he wants. Whether His Holy Spirit in IN the person or not isn't important. The function of the Holy Spirit IN a person is given in Romans 8:28,29 - i.e. to CHANGE THE PERSON and bring them into the IMAGE OF JESUS.

The Disciples didn't have the Holy Spirit IN them (yet), but were out doing miracles in God's power as Jesus commissioned them.

How is that theology any better than the Calvinistic idea that God fits some for destruction? Since as you say, God can speak to and motivate anybody He wants, any time He wants, in any way He wants? Does that not contradict God desiring all men to repent and come to the knowledge of Truth? If all He has to do is motivate them to do so, and yet does not, it is the same outcome. If it is not important whether or not the Holy Spirit is in someone, why make such a big deal of it?

 

[Magenta]

Deuteronomy 30:6~ The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you
may love Him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Matt.3 In those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea and saying, “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven has come near.”

Matt 4 From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, z“Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.”

Luke 5 Jesus answered them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. 32 I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.”

Then why did both John and Jesus, and others, preach repent? Who were they telling to repent?

The house of Israel includes all of the elect of God from every kindred, and tongue, and people and nation. The house of Israel turned away from God and started worshiping idols, and God scattered them to all the ends of the earth, and blinded them from seeing the truth.

They are described in the scriptures, as the lost sheep of the house of Israel. these are the ones that the remnant of the house of Israel are supposed to go and teach repentance to. This is found in Ezk. The kingdom of heaven is one of many names that Christ's church is called.

 

[Runningman]

I do not see where the Bible teaches total depravity. That is the issue under all of this.

That's true. Personally I don't agree with total depravity because I don't think it accurately reflects the reality. Unsaved people can feed the hungry, help the poor, help the sick, and love one another too.

Matthew 5
46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that?

Luke 11
13If you then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give the Holy Spirit to those who ask him!”

And the fruits of the Holy Spirit. Jesus said in Matthew 5 that tax collectors also love. In Luke 11, Jesus said evil people can know how to give good gifts. Two of the gifts are love and goodness.

Galatians 5
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

 

[WillB]

I do not see where the Bible teaches total depravity. That is the issue under all of this.

What's the distinction between sin and depravity?

 

[kaylagrl]

What's the distinction between sin and depravity?

The question is more is there such a thing as total depravity. And if we truly understand Christ and His human side, then we cannot support the view of total depravity.

 

[Magenta]

They had to create their "Regeneration" fantasy as a "work around").

Ephesians 2:4-7

 

[Runningman]

According to total depravity, we inherit a sinful nature that tempts us to do evil. How is that so if Jesus was tempted and he was perfectly sinless?

James 1
13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.

Hebrews 4
15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

 

[kaylagrl]

According to total depravity, we inherit a sinful nature that tempts us to do evil. How is that so if Jesus was tempted and he was perfectly sinless?

James 1
13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.

Hebrews 4
15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

Ding, ding,ding!! You got ahead of me. lol Perfect point!!

 

[HopeinHim4ever]

According to total depravity, we inherit a sinful nature that tempts us to do evil. How is that so if Jesus was tempted and he was perfectly sinless?

James 1
13When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; 14but each person is tempted when they are dragged away by their own evil desire and enticed.

Hebrews 4
15For we do not have a high priest who is unable to empathize with our weaknesses, but we have one who has been tempted in every way, just as we are—yet he did not sin.

Although I don't agree with total depravity either, wouldn't you say we do have a carnal nature (Romans 7:14 & 8:7), and Jesus was able to overcome sin by the Spirit of God in Him?

 

[WillB]

The question is more is there such a thing as total depravity. And if we truly understand Christ and His human side, then we cannot support the view of total depravity.

If you can't give a definition of 'depravity' and can't distinguish your definition of that term in relation to sin, you don't actually have a point to make.

 

[kaylagrl]

If you can't give a definition of 'depravity' and can't distinguish your definition of that term in relation to sin, you don't actually have a point to make.

Read the post RM and I exchanged 909. And we are talking total depravity, which is the issue.

 

[Nehemiah6]

What's the distinction between sin and depravity?

Sin is the transgression of the Law. Depravity is the inability to do anything righteous. Only evil. And Calvinistic Total Depravity from TULIP is just baloney.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

According to total depravity, we inherit a sinful nature that tempts us to do evil. How is that so if Jesus was tempted and he was perfectly sinless?

Simple: Jesus was tempted AS WE ARE, but didn't allow His temptation to "Conceive", and birth sinful actions.

Temptation isn't sin - it's HUMAN NATURE.

Harold Ockengae once said: "You CAN'T prevent the birds from flying over head, but you CAN prevent them from building a nest in your hair.

 

[kaylagrl]

Simple: Jesus was tempted AS WE ARE, but didn't allow His temptation to "Conceive", and birth sinful actions.
.

He resisted temptation, total depravity says you cannot resist.

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

He resisted temptation, total depravity says you cannot resist.

CALVINIST "total depravity" claims that to be true. That's why they had to invent their "Regeneration" as a work-around.

 

[Magenta]

The term "total depravity", as understood in colloquial English, obscures the theological issues involved.
One cannot simply look at the two words and conjecture upon the extent of the depravity of humanity.
For example, Reformed and Lutheran theologians have never considered humans to be absent of goodness
or unable to do good outwardly as a result of the fall. People retain the imago Dei, though it has been distorted.

Total depravity is the fallen state of human beings as a result of original sin. The doctrine of total depravity
asserts that people are, as a result of the fall, not inclined or even able to love God wholly with heart, mind,
and strength, but rather are inclined by nature to serve their own will and desires and reject his rule. source

 

[Nehemiah6]

NOBODY in the Old Testament was "Saved" in the contemporary sense, since that wouldn't become possible until John 20:22

All the OT saints were justified by grace through faith (Hebrews 11). But they did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit until Pentecost. That is when they were "perfected".

 

[Bob-Carabbio]

All the OT saints were justified by grace through faith (Hebrews 11). But they did not receive the gift of the Holy Spirit until Pentecost. That is when they were "perfected".

John 20:22 = The Holy Spirit IN the disciples proved by Luke 24:45
Acts 2:4 is the Holy Spirit ON (endued with power Luke 24:49) the disciples.
Calvary was when the SIN OFFERING (Isaiah 53:10) was made that cleansed the souls who were being held in Sheol, waiting for their promised redemption.