Are We Sending Newborns To Be Slaughtered by Doing This?
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I'm fortunate enough to have had the drive and hunger to search the scriptures daily in order to come to the knowledge of the truth, but it wasn't instant, it wasn't even fast, and with all of the false teachers abounding shamelessly in front of congregations it was incredibly slow. I have had to pray often and search the Bible every day, and often every night, for years.
Most people aren't going to do what I did. People do what I like to call "drive by Christianity." They treat it like ordering lunch through a fast food restaurant. You pull up, read a verse about something out of context, then think they're a saved Christian now. No. Christianity is much more than a belief, it's a way of life and requires holy living and obedience to God. The "sinners prayer" is not entirely useless, but it isn't how one becomes saved. At least it gets people to step out in faith and I think God can absolutely work with that.
Most people aren't going to do what I did. People do what I like to call "drive by Christianity." They treat it like ordering lunch through a fast food restaurant. You pull up, read a verse about something out of context, then think they're a saved Christian now. No. Christianity is much more than a belief, it's a way of life and requires holy living and obedience to God. The "sinners prayer" is not entirely useless, but it isn't how one becomes saved. At least it gets people to step out in faith and I think God can absolutely work with that.
N
To my knowledge, what you said here isn't true. Years ago, the church that I was attending was one of the local churches that partnered with Billy Graham during one of his crusades. In fact, I was one of the church workers who attended the crusade. Different people got partnered with different churches after making public confessions/decisions at that crusade, and the church that I was attending at that time did do follow up.
Having said that, I have mixed feelings about Graham. On the one hand, I think that he did much good. On the other hand, he's probably one of the pioneers of the ecumenical movement that I'm not a fan of. Billy also had some crazy ideas about the afterlife.
Having said that, I have mixed feelings about Graham. On the one hand, I think that he did much good. On the other hand, he's probably one of the pioneers of the ecumenical movement that I'm not a fan of. Billy also had some crazy ideas about the afterlife.
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God's house is a multi-generational family with Christ at the head. Literally: house = family. Not a temple, not a building. Family.
And His family shares the timeless connection of the Holy Spirit: in heaven and on earth... and in Himself. A family tree, seen arising from the beginning of time yet, rooted in the timeless Spirit of Christ the King.
THIS is why the language of the epistles is rooted in "father and son". Not sons as if we are males in Christ. But sons because we share in the image and likeness of our Father in heaven and our Father in us. The New Testament is full of this language.
If we restored this familial language of the house (not the "office" as the Romans practice) we would better understand our responsibility toward the young in Christ.
Let me be clear: it is scriptural to call those under one's care in Christ "my children" and it is scriptural for the children in Christ to call the elder "my father". Elders are the fathers of the faith of the young, if indeed they brought them to Christ and give an account to God for their souls.
In many ways we have lost this grace (of the familial connection) because we've assembled like a business (501c3) or like the Romans.
Aaron56
P.S. There is clear understanding for "What about 'Call no one on earth your father'?" If you're interested, ask.
And His family shares the timeless connection of the Holy Spirit: in heaven and on earth... and in Himself. A family tree, seen arising from the beginning of time yet, rooted in the timeless Spirit of Christ the King.
THIS is why the language of the epistles is rooted in "father and son". Not sons as if we are males in Christ. But sons because we share in the image and likeness of our Father in heaven and our Father in us. The New Testament is full of this language.
If we restored this familial language of the house (not the "office" as the Romans practice) we would better understand our responsibility toward the young in Christ.
Let me be clear: it is scriptural to call those under one's care in Christ "my children" and it is scriptural for the children in Christ to call the elder "my father". Elders are the fathers of the faith of the young, if indeed they brought them to Christ and give an account to God for their souls.
In many ways we have lost this grace (of the familial connection) because we've assembled like a business (501c3) or like the Romans.
Aaron56
P.S. There is clear understanding for "What about 'Call no one on earth your father'?" If you're interested, ask.
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N
There was not only follow-up, but different churches banded together in advance to let people know that the crusade was coming. In the case of the church that I was attending at that time, we had flyers that we handed out door to door for a couple of weeks, I think (maybe more), leading up to the actual crusade. The Billy Graham Evangelistic Association also sent out videos to the churches who were working in conjunction with them, and I still remember the last thing that the speaker on the video said. In an attempt at humor, and in a play on words, he said to those who would be going door to door and handing out flyers "Remember Philippians 3:2". That verse begins with the words "Beware of dogs".
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Years ago I read that Graham said one of his deepest regrets was promoting the American ideal of a church for much of his ministry.
I remember a study I read (years ago) where they tracked converts from Billy Graham's "crusades". My memory is a bit fuzzy but...
On the day of the crusade, perhaps 10,000 converted to Christianity.
5 years after the crusade, less than 10% attended a typical "church" regularly.
10 years after the crusade, less than 10% of THOSE remained practicing believers.
If we do the math 10,000 became less than 1000 after 5 years which became less than 100 after 5 more years.
So 10,000 became less than 100. That's over a 90% decrease.
If we compare that to the ministry of Jesus, He had 12 disciples closest to Him and He lost 1, so 11 remained. That's less than a 9% decrease.
I remember a study I read (years ago) where they tracked converts from Billy Graham's "crusades". My memory is a bit fuzzy but...
On the day of the crusade, perhaps 10,000 converted to Christianity.
5 years after the crusade, less than 10% attended a typical "church" regularly.
10 years after the crusade, less than 10% of THOSE remained practicing believers.
If we do the math 10,000 became less than 1000 after 5 years which became less than 100 after 5 more years.
So 10,000 became less than 100. That's over a 90% decrease.
If we compare that to the ministry of Jesus, He had 12 disciples closest to Him and He lost 1, so 11 remained. That's less than a 9% decrease.
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Graham was a full-blown ecumenist in his latter years. This wasn't good but he created a far bigger problem in my opinion. He was on the frontlines in the creation of the parachurch organization. These are organizations that theoretically work alongside churches to perform specialized jobs. Most notably welfare services, homeless services, childcare, domestic violence, disaster relief, food, clothing and more. They work across denominational and national lines. These things are good and they obviously fill a need. The problem though is people start to see these organizations as "the church." Some of these organizations claim to perform evangelistic and discipleship functions but oftentimes this is just a way to satisfy the IRS that they're a "religious" organization.
As the parachurch has gained traction and more people come into contact with it, they tend to get a distorted picture of the gospel. They think the social gospel is all their is; the idea of repentance of sin and turning from sin to live a holy life gets lost. Meanwhile, the real church where the gospel is preached takes on less importance. If I can go to a parachurch organization and get all my needs met, why should I bother with something that tells me I need to change? The Salvation Army is probably one of the most well-known parachurch organizations. A lot of people think the SA a church, but they don't even teach or practice baptism or the Lord's supper.
Needless to say, many of these organizations are tremendously wealthy; and with that kind of money involved you're eventually going to have corruption of one kind or another.
As the parachurch has gained traction and more people come into contact with it, they tend to get a distorted picture of the gospel. They think the social gospel is all their is; the idea of repentance of sin and turning from sin to live a holy life gets lost. Meanwhile, the real church where the gospel is preached takes on less importance. If I can go to a parachurch organization and get all my needs met, why should I bother with something that tells me I need to change? The Salvation Army is probably one of the most well-known parachurch organizations. A lot of people think the SA a church, but they don't even teach or practice baptism or the Lord's supper.
Needless to say, many of these organizations are tremendously wealthy; and with that kind of money involved you're eventually going to have corruption of one kind or another.
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Yeah, you often read in the Bible that heroes like Moses didn't make their move for God until they were old men. I'm hoping that, with proper mentorship, we can get younger men involved in ministry much sooner, rather than later.
Agreed. It's better than nothing. But instead of having someone raise their hands, I think it would be better to meet with them face to face, don't you?
Agreed. It's better than nothing. But instead of having someone raise their hands, I think it would be better to meet with them face to face, don't you?
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If that's what you believe... you haven't visited enough churches.
I can walk you into dozens of churches in my own city, where the pastors stand up and quote verses, and don't understand the context of a single verse.
(And I'm not quibbling about eschatology, but just the rudimentary exegesis of ordinary passages.)
Now, to be fair, there are surely pastors who know the bible, but for various reasons have misplaced priorities.
I'm sure that happens.
But that's not a small problem at all... it's a crucial matter for christians, especially leaders, to understand priorities.
The principle of understanding and setting correct priorities is found all throughout scripture, and this matter wholly infuses the life of the believer.
It's a very big deal.
So we have two possibilities: A pastor either has no understanding of the discipleship of new converts.... or... he does, yet doesn't bother to make it a priority.
Both are a serious problem.
As far as what laymen in the church should do... that's going to be different in every church.
Laymen should do whatever good things they have time for, which are biblical, and which they feel personally led to do, and which are also allowed by the church leadership.
That's a lot of caveats.
But the leadership... it is the job of the leaders to lead.
If the leaders fail to lead... the laymen can only do so much.
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I can walk you into dozens of churches in my own city, where the pastors stand up and quote verses, and don't understand the context of a single verse.
(And I'm not quibbling about eschatology, but just the rudimentary exegesis of ordinary passages.)
Now, to be fair, there are surely pastors who know the bible, but for various reasons have misplaced priorities.
I'm sure that happens.
But that's not a small problem at all... it's a crucial matter for christians, especially leaders, to understand priorities.
The principle of understanding and setting correct priorities is found all throughout scripture, and this matter wholly infuses the life of the believer.
It's a very big deal.
So we have two possibilities: A pastor either has no understanding of the discipleship of new converts.... or... he does, yet doesn't bother to make it a priority.
Both are a serious problem.
As far as what laymen in the church should do... that's going to be different in every church.
Laymen should do whatever good things they have time for, which are biblical, and which they feel personally led to do, and which are also allowed by the church leadership.
That's a lot of caveats.
But the leadership... it is the job of the leaders to lead.
If the leaders fail to lead... the laymen can only do so much.
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Allot of speculation happening yes it can be fun yet its not truth. Going backwards up "visited enough Churches". No one has. There are over 30 million so a "case" could be made for both here. Why some are jumping on the negative part I don't know can't say. There is no pastor of any Church that answers to me. There is no "me" taking over what I think the Pastor is not doing enough of. God talks to Him God does not will not by pass the pastor and talk to me its that's pastors Church and just like your own life He will never go against your will.
So always look in the mirror first. We can read that bible pray for hours if we wanted to we can go to Church every time early and pray before service starts we can interseed (intercession) for our Church or pastor if we felt truly something was wrong. So what I personally feel some Church/Churches/Preaches are doing not doing God is not asking me. Some of this fall into gossip which I will not touch. People did this same kind of thing in Christ day. if I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you, you follow me. Christ said.
When I want GOD/Christ to really focus on me all I have to do is talk about others. See the good first.. focus on that He does this in your life never has He ever told me anything about any other believers life in a negative way. Every time He showed/shows me something its always to help to encourage, to lift up to make them happy and its never ever done in public. Me? I'm out.
So always look in the mirror first. We can read that bible pray for hours if we wanted to we can go to Church every time early and pray before service starts we can interseed (intercession) for our Church or pastor if we felt truly something was wrong. So what I personally feel some Church/Churches/Preaches are doing not doing God is not asking me. Some of this fall into gossip which I will not touch. People did this same kind of thing in Christ day. if I want him to remain alive until I return, what is that to you, you follow me. Christ said.
When I want GOD/Christ to really focus on me all I have to do is talk about others. See the good first.. focus on that He does this in your life never has He ever told me anything about any other believers life in a negative way. Every time He showed/shows me something its always to help to encourage, to lift up to make them happy and its never ever done in public. Me? I'm out.
1.) You said you don't want to talk about what pastors are doing, but that is the actual topic of this thread... THAT IS THE TOPIC.
The entire topic had nothing to do with whether or not we should all examine ourselves... that is a given... but the topic was specifically about pastors.
2.) There is nothing unbiblical with examining the actions of pastors, to see if they're doing the right things.
We're commanded to do things like identify false teachers, expect high morals of the pastors, test the words of teachers rather than blindly following, prove/test all things to see if they're true, and in general be truthful and expect truthfulness from leadership... all of that is right in the Bible.
(And since discipleship is a primary command, and it's right in scripture.... we don't need to ask whether or not a particular pastor feels "led"... it is an overarching command. It is a primary tenet, and responsibility, of the faith. We don't get to opt out.)
3.) As far as percentages, and whether or not the "majority" of pastors are doing right things... we could genuinely try to assess that, we really could, but that was never part of the original topic... that's a red herring.
- The opening post WAS NOT about "how many" pastors are failing to do discipleship, but rather just that it happens.
4.) Everything in a thread breaks down into frustration and chaos, necessarily, whenever we lose sight of the original topic.
- There can be no ANSWERS OR RESOLUTIONS to a topic, when we've lost sight of the topic.
- When we've lost sight of the topic, and we're talking about other things, we simply CANNOT resolve the original topic, because we're no longer discussing it.
- The only way to answer or resolve a topic, is if we stick to the topic.
I think I've said everything on my mind about this topic... so I'm going to politely move on.
If anyone has questions, rebuttals, or just wants to argue... they'll need to pm me.
Take care everyone, and I hope you all have a lovely weekend.
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The entire topic had nothing to do with whether or not we should all examine ourselves... that is a given... but the topic was specifically about pastors.
2.) There is nothing unbiblical with examining the actions of pastors, to see if they're doing the right things.
We're commanded to do things like identify false teachers, expect high morals of the pastors, test the words of teachers rather than blindly following, prove/test all things to see if they're true, and in general be truthful and expect truthfulness from leadership... all of that is right in the Bible.
(And since discipleship is a primary command, and it's right in scripture.... we don't need to ask whether or not a particular pastor feels "led"... it is an overarching command. It is a primary tenet, and responsibility, of the faith. We don't get to opt out.)
3.) As far as percentages, and whether or not the "majority" of pastors are doing right things... we could genuinely try to assess that, we really could, but that was never part of the original topic... that's a red herring.
- The opening post WAS NOT about "how many" pastors are failing to do discipleship, but rather just that it happens.
4.) Everything in a thread breaks down into frustration and chaos, necessarily, whenever we lose sight of the original topic.
- There can be no ANSWERS OR RESOLUTIONS to a topic, when we've lost sight of the topic.
- When we've lost sight of the topic, and we're talking about other things, we simply CANNOT resolve the original topic, because we're no longer discussing it.
- The only way to answer or resolve a topic, is if we stick to the topic.
I think I've said everything on my mind about this topic... so I'm going to politely move on.
If anyone has questions, rebuttals, or just wants to argue... they'll need to pm me.
Take care everyone, and I hope you all have a lovely weekend.
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I used to , Id have to do some digging its been a number of years ago. I know that the reverend Jim Clark mentioned him ,but not by name, in a book he wrote . Jim was a 33rd degree and said he was at billys 33rd ceremony. He confessed on his dying bed that the eveagelist that is in his book was Billy Graham.