Do you observe the Sabbath?

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,319
113
Australia
If I thought you would hear my arguments I would be glad to share with you on this topic. I believe you are convinced what you believe is correct and nothing I might say would be considered. That's why I haven't chosen to engage on more than a cursory level.
I don't want to sound like I'm set in my thinking.
But it is hard to go against what the bible says. The bible, history, Jesus, creation and my own experience plainly tells me that the sabbath is a beautiful gift from God.
Like Jesus the pearl of great value. I just want to share it with others.
 

MessengerofTruth

Well-known member
Dec 21, 2022
688
435
63
I would like to humbly add that there is likewise no red-lettered phrase that says, "You have heard it said thou shalt keep the Sabbath, But I say I am the Sabbath."
I do understand that Christ has come to give us rest in our soul and spirit, but I believe that if something so important as making impotent the 10 Commandments were the intention of Christ at His coming the first time, I believe that He would have made it plain.
Seeing that the crux of worship of YHVH hinged upon coming under the authority of Him in obedience to those Commands.
The 10 Commandments were placed in the Ark of The Covenant.
I will add that that same Ark is mentioned in Revelation, as I understand, to reveal the fact that it is still relevant seeing that the Heavenly is the pattern for things earthly. These are some things I believe that the LORD has brought to my attention over the years to confirm my faith.
 

TheLearner

Well-known member
Jan 14, 2019
8,221
1,584
113
68
Brighton, MI
This doesn't line up...

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, to day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Luk 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee to day, shalt thou be with me in paradise.

It is a known fact that the commer , , , was added. And Jesus could not have been talking about going to heaven that day.

Luk 24:46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behoved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

Joh 20:17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.

These verses prove that Jesus did not go to heaven until after He talked with Mary on sunday morning.
Playing with comma placement is the dumbest thing one can say. The N.T. Greek text has no commas and is in all caps. If I have time, wife is going to kick me off soon.


Luke 23:42 And he said to Jesus, Remember me, my Lord, when you come in your kingdom. 48 Luke 23:43 Jesus said to him, Verily I say unto you, Today shall you be with me in Paradise.
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/100251.htm

Revelation 1:18
I am the one who lives. I was dead, but look, I am alive forever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

"
Chapter 14
Of the continuance of the soul.

Wherefore every one while still existing in this body should already be aware that he must be committed to that state and office, of which he made himself a sharer and an adherent while in this life, nor should he doubt that in that eternal world he will be partner of him, whose servant and minister he chose to make himself here: according to that saying of our Lord which says If any man serve Me, let him follow Me, and where I am, there shall My servant also be. John 12:26 For as the kingdom of the devil is gained by consenting to sin, so the kingdom of God is attained by the practice of virtue in purity of heart and spiritual knowledge. But where the kingdom of God is, there most certainly eternal life is enjoyed, and where the kingdom of the devil is, there without doubt is death and the grave. And the man who is in this condition, cannot praise the Lord, according to the saying of the prophet which tells us: The dead cannot praise You, O Lord; neither all they that go down into the grave (doubtless of sin). But we, says he, who live (not forsooth to sin nor to this world but to God) will bless the Lord, from this time forth for evermore: for in death no man remembers God: but in the grave (of sin) who will confess to the Lord? i.e., no one will. For no man even though he were to call himself a Christian a thousand times over, or a monk, confesses God when he is sinning: no man who allows those things which the Lord hates, remembers God, nor calls himself with any truth the servant of Him, whose commands he scorns with obstinate rashness: in which death the blessed Apostle declares that the widow is involved, who gives herself to pleasure, saying a widow who gives herself to pleasure is dead while she lives. 1 Timothy 5:6 There are then many who while still living in this body are dead, and lying in the grave cannot praise God; and on the contrary there are many who though they are dead in the body yet bless God in the spirit, and praise Him, according to this: O you spirits and souls of the righteous, bless the Lord: and every spirit shall praise the Lord. And in the Apocalypse the souls of them that are slain are not only said to praise God but to address Him also. Revelation 6:9-10 In the gospel too the Lord says with still greater clearness to the Sadducees: Have you not read that which was spoken by God, when He said to you: I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac and the God of Jacob. He is not the God of the dead but of the living: for all do live unto Him. Matthew 22:31-32 Of whom also the Apostle says: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for He has prepared for them a city. Hebrews 11:16 For that they are not idle after the separation from this body, and are not incapable of feeling, the parable in the gospel shows, which tells us of the beggar Lazarus and Dives clothed in purple, one of whom obtained a position of bliss, i.e., Abraham's bosom, the other is consumed with the dreadful heat of eternal fire. But if you care too to understand the words spoken to the thief Today you shall be with Me in Paradise, Luke 23:43 what do they clearly show but that not only does their former intelligence continue with the souls, but also that in their changed condition they partake of some state which corresponds to their actions and deserts? For the Lord would certainly never have promised him this, if He had known that his soul after being separated from the flesh would either have been deprived of perception or have been resolved into nothing. For it was not his flesh but his soul which was to enter Paradise with Christ. At least we must avoid, and shun with the utmost horror, that wicked punctuation of the heretics, who, as they do not believe that Christ could be found in Paradise on the same day on which He descended into hell, thus punctuate Verily, I say unto you today, and making a stop apply you shall be with Me in Paradise, in such a way that they imagine that this promise was not fulfilled at once after he departed from this life, but that it will be fulfilled after the resurrection, as they do not understand what before the time of His resurrection He declared to the Jews, who fancied that He was hampered by human difficulties and weakness of the flesh as they were: No man has ascended into heaven, but He who came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven: John 3:13 by which He clearly shows that the souls of the departed are not only not deprived of their reason, but that they are not even without such feelings as hope and sorrow, joy and fear, and that they already are beginning to taste beforehand something of what is reserved for them at the last judgment, and that they are not as some unbelievers hold resolved into nothing after their departure from this life: but that they live a more real life, and are still more earnest in waiting on the praises of God. And indeed to put aside for a little Scripture proofs, and to discuss, as far as our ability permits us, a little about the nature of the soul itself, is it not beyond the bounds of I will not say the folly, but the madness of all stupidity, even to have the slightest suspicion that the nobler part of man, in which as the blessed Apostle shows, the image and likeness of God consists, will, when the burden of the body with which it is oppressed in this world is laid aside, become insensible, when, as it contains in itself all the power of reason, it makes the dumb and senseless material flesh sensible, by participation with it: especially when it follows, and the order of reason itself demands that when the mind has put off the grossness of the flesh with which it is now weighed down, it will restore its intellectual powers better than ever, and receive them in a purer and finer condition than it lost them. But so far did the blessed Apostle recognize that what we say is true, that he actually wished to depart from this flesh; that by separation from it, he might be able to be joined more earnestly to the Lord; saying: I desire to be dissolved and to be with Christ, which is far better, for while we are in the body we are absent from the Lord: and therefore we are bold and have our desire always to be absent from the body, and present with the Lord. Wherefore also we strive, whether absent or present, to be pleasing to Him; and he declares indeed that the continuance of the soul which is in the flesh is distance from the Lord, and absence from Christ, and trusts with entire faith that its separation and departure from this flesh involves presence with Christ. And again still more clearly the same Apostle speaks of this state of the souls as one that is very full of life: But you have come to Mount Sion, and the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, and the church of the first born, who are written in heaven, and the spirits of just men made perfect. Hebrews 12:22-23 Of which spirits he speaks in another passage, Furthermore we have had instructors of our flesh, and we reverenced them: shall we not much more be subject to the Father of spirits and live?"
https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/08072b.htm
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,319
113
Australia
Playing with comma placement is the dumbest thing one can say. The N.T. Greek text has no commas and is in all caps.
I'm not playing with the comma placement... I'm saying that the comma placement is not consistant with other bible verses. And because no comma was in the original, the argument that Jesus went to heaven that day has no weight.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,398
6,737
113
I'm not playing with the comma placement... I'm saying that the comma placement is not consistant with other bible verses. And because no comma was in the original, the argument that Jesus went to heaven that day has no weight.

has nothing to do with Jesus rising on the Sabbath. ( which He did not),
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,319
113
Australia
Make these two verses line up

Luk 23:43 KJV And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

Joh 20:17 KJV Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,319
113
Australia
has nothing to do with Jesus rising on the Sabbath. ( which He did not),
No He didn't because prophesy pointed to Jesus resting on the sabbath and rising the 3rd day.
Thats what I'm saying..
Jesus was resting (dead) on the sabbath, and rose on sunday.

Why did Jesus rest on the sabbath if it was no longer to be kept?
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,571
13,548
113
58
Just keep the idea in your mind.....
If it doesn't happen then they are not Gods people. But if it does happen they are being lead by God.

So we will see if laws are promoted to worship and rest on Sunday. ??
I wouldn't hold my breath. ;)
 

mailmandan

Senior Member
Apr 7, 2014
25,571
13,548
113
58
Why did Jesus rest on the sabbath if it was no longer to be kept?
Galatians 4:4 - But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law..

Are we under the law or under grace?
 

Nehemiah6

Senior Member
Jul 18, 2017
26,074
13,778
113
Why did Jesus rest on the sabbath if it was no longer to be kept?
Jesus of Nazareth was a Hebrew of the Hebrews descended from Abraham and of the line of David. He was "made" under the Law, meaning He was required to observe the Law perfectly (which He did). He went to the synagogues on Sabbath days as was the custom. But He also healed on Sabbath days, which enraged the Jewish religious leaders.

However, the day Christ died, the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom supernaturally. Which meant that God ended the Old Covenant and the Law of Moses right then. Thus His blood of the New Covenant ratified the New Covenant. Ever since the Law of Christ has been in effect, which means that now the Lord's Day -- the first day of the week -- is the Christian Sabbath. And that is what we see in the NT and also historically in the 2nd century, where Justin Martyr describes Christian worship on the first day of the week. He even calls it the day of the Sun, and we call it Sunday. Seventh Day Baptists and Adventists are blind to this truth.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,398
6,737
113
Jesus of Nazareth was a Hebrew of the Hebrews descended from Abraham and of the line of David. He was "made" under the Law, meaning He was required to observe the Law perfectly (which He did). He went to the synagogues on Sabbath days as was the custom. But He also healed on Sabbath days, which enraged the Jewish religious leaders.

However, the day Christ died, the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom supernaturally. Which meant that God ended the Old Covenant and the Law of Moses right then. Thus His blood of the New Covenant ratified the New Covenant. Ever since the Law of Christ has been in effect, which means that now the Lord's Day -- the first day of the week -- is the Christian Sabbath. And that is what we see in the NT and also historically in the 2nd century, where Justin Martyr describes Christian worship on the first day of the week. He even calls it the day of the Sun, and we call it Sunday. Seventh Day Baptists and Adventists are blind to this truth.
the veil remains on them.
they cannot see.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,319
113
Australia
However, the day Christ died, the veil in the temple was torn from top to bottom supernaturally. Which meant that God ended the Old Covenant and the Law of Moses right then
We have discussed this before.
The vail was torn because the blood sacrifices and cerimonial laws were no longer needed.

Killing lambs was not needed, but taking the Lords name in vain is still a sin. Murder is still a sin.
The 10 commandments were not the old covenant. The old covenant was the agreement by God and the Isralites and the laws may have been part of the conditions but they were not the covenant.

Example.....
I make a covenant with my child.... if they don't drink alcohol and drive for 3 months I'll give them $1000. They agree.. after a few weeks i change the covenant...a new covenant...
If they agree to stop drinking alcohol completely. I'll give them $10000 every 3 months.
Does the new covenant mean all the drink driving laws are now void.

The new covenant....
Jer 31:33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

Psa 78:10 They kept not the covenant of God, and refused to walk in his law;

Notice how the law, and the covenant are not the same.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,319
113
Australia
Please show that the Ten-Commandment law was the Old Covenant which was abolished.

I agree that the old covenant was ablished.

A covenant is an agreement between two parties based upon mutual promises. All through the centuries God has dealt with His people on the basis of covenants. He is a reasonable God, and he invites, "Come now, and let us reason together." Isaiah 1:18.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,319
113
Australia
The most important covenant was a covenant between the Father and the Son and had to do with the eventuality of sin. Jesus offered Himself there in the vast eternity of the past as the "Lamb slain from the foundation of the world." Revelation 13:8. He agreed to become the atoning sacrifice to redeem man, should Adam and Eve choose to sin.

The terms of that eternal covenant have never been changed or superseded. Although many other covenants have been established through the years, the simple provision of salvation through faith has remained in effect through all ages, for all mankind.
 

gb9

Senior Member
Jan 18, 2011
12,398
6,737
113
Please show that the Ten-Commandment law was the Old Covenant which was abolished.

I agree that the old covenant was ablished.

A covenant is an agreement between two parties based upon mutual promises. All through the centuries God has dealt with His people on the basis of covenants. He is a reasonable God, and he invites, "Come now, and let us reason together." Isaiah 1:18.
correct,

the Covenant that God made with Israel at Sinai was just that.

not with the gentile world. they ( we ) were never under that Covenant.

we are under " Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,319
113
Australia
Ever since the Law of Christ has been in effect, which means that now the Lord's Day -- the first day of the week -- is the Christian Sabbath.
Please prove this? No real proff has been given. The Lords day is not Sunday. Just because Jesus rose on Sunday does not mean it is the new Sabbath. The Lord made it clear that the seventh day was the Sabbath and there is no clear verse that makes Sunday the Sabbath.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,319
113
Australia
correct,

the Covenant that God made with Israel at Sinai was just that.

not with the gentile world. they ( we ) were never under that Covenant.

we are under " Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and you will be saved".
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.
Heb 8:12 For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember no more.
Heb 8:13 In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,319
113
Australia
It is just as important to understand what the Old Covenant was not, as to know what it was. Three absolute proofs that the covenant which disappeared was not the Ten Commandments.
Heb 8.....
First of all, we notice that the Old Covenant had some poor promises in it. The New Covenant, we are told, "was established upon better promises." Verse 6. Tell me, has anyone ever been able to point out any poor promises in the Ten Commandments? Never. On the contrary, Paul declares that they were very good. "Children, obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right. Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promise; That it may be well with thee, and thou mayest live long on the earth." Ephesians 6:1-3.

This declaration alone is sufficient to show that the writer of Hebrews was not charging the moral law with any weak promises. The Old Covenant, whatever else it might be, could never be the Ten Commandments.

The second thing wrong with the Old Covenant was that it was faulty. The Bible says, "For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second." Hebrews 8:7. Let me ask you a question: Has any man ever been able to find a fault or a flaw in the handwriting of God? The psalmist declared, "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Psalm 19:7. Paul wrote, "Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." Romans 7:12.

Does that sound like something weak and imperfect? No law could be perfect and faulty at the same time. It becomes more and more apparent that the Old Covenant could not have been the Ten Commandments.

Finally, it was to be abolished! "In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away." Hebrews 8:13. Did the great moral law of Ten Commandments vanish away? Anyone who has read the New Testament must answer, Absolutely not. Paul affirms the exact opposite about the law. He asked, "Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law." Romans 3:31.

Does the Bible contradict itself? Can something vanish away and be established at the same time? Did the same writer say opposite things about the same law? Just to be certain that Paul was not saying that the Old Covenant was the law, let us insert the words "Old Covenant" instead of the word "law" into Romans 3:31. "Do we than make void the Old Covenant through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the Old Covenant."
 

TMS

Senior Member
Mar 21, 2015
4,030
1,319
113
Australia
Ex 24.... And Moses "took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient. And Moses took the blood, and sprinkled it on the people, and said, Behold the blood of the covenant, which the Lord hath made with you concerning all these words."

This covenant was not the law itself but was made "concerning all these words." The Ten Commandments were the basis for the agreement. The people promised to keep that law, and God promised to bless them in return. The crucial weakness in the whole arrangement revolved around the way Israel promised. There was no suggestion that they could not fully conform to every requirement of God. Neither was there any application for divine assistance. "We can do it," they insisted.

Here is a perfect example of leaning on the flesh and trusting human strength. The words are filled with self-confidence. "All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient."

Were they able to keep that promise? In spite of their repeated assurances, they miserably broke their word before Moses could even get off the mountain with the tables of stone. these are the poor promises in the Old Covenant?

In the book of Hebrews God is reported as "finding fault with them." Hebrews 8:8. He said, "Because they continued not in my covenant ... I regarded them not." Verse 9. The blame is placed squarely upon the human side of the mutual pact. Thus, we can see exactly why Paul wrote as he did about this Old Covenant in Hebrews 8. It did gender to bondage, it proved faulty, had poor promises, and vanished away - all because the people failed to obey their part of the agreement. Putting all these things together we can see why a new covenant was desperately needed, which would have better promises.