the 2 bears & their 42 victims

[Simona1988]

Where do you get this information?

From the Bible... why would the children call him bald if he weren't?

I searched icons of him and he is portrayed as being half-bald.

Edit: actually, I found icons where he has hair all over his head...

 

[Simona1988]

 

[Simona1988]

So, in the icons, Elijah is portrayed with long hair and Elisha is portrayed (most of the time) half-bald.

 

[posthuman]

From the Bible... why would the children call him bald if he weren't?

I searched icons of him and he is portrayed as being half-bald.

Edit: actually, I found icons where he has hair all over his head...

I suspect the icons were made with the interpretation that since these Molech-worshipping sons of belial in the idolatrous city of Bethel called him bald he must be literally bald.

Compare Jesus being mocked and scorned and told to 'go up / come down' - is what the bulls which surrounded Him accused him of, accurate?
Because this is a picture of Him: both Elijah and Elisha are pictures of Him, coming to judge and coming to save - His two Advents.

I personally think it's more likely that 'bald head' is a slur accusing him of having leprosy, i.e. being unclean and cursed with death, than it is something banal like 'long nose' or 'big ears' - - all these things are pointing to Christ. All the details are significant and their significance is in their testimony of the person and work of Christ. Leprosy is a symbol of unreconcilable, unhealable death. Of sin. Of antimony towards God - these men serve a different God; they consider Elisha a false prophet and wish his death.

In type, they seek to kill Messiah, if it were possible. They curse and reject Him and call Him a blasphemer full of demons.

So what we have is idolatrous worshippers of Molech seeking to kill the typological God-man, in a passage strongly paralleling the crucifixion where Christ is told to 'come down' by unbelieving scorners. They are Israelites, unbelieving, adulterous Israelites, in a picture of not juse the rejection but the literal murderous hostility towards God.

So two bears are sent - why two? They are judgement, clearly - and the judgement of sin is death. The judgement of rejection of Christ is the second death: we have two bears, two deaths, a pronounced curse against the enemies of Messiah

 

[cv5]

I suspect the icons were made with the interpretation that since these Molech-worshipping sons of belial in the idolatrous city of Bethel called him bald he must be literally bald.

Compare Jesus being mocked and scorned and told to 'go up / come down' - is what the bulls which surrounded Him accused him of, accurate?
Because this is a picture of Him: both Elijah and Elisha are pictures of Him, coming to judge and coming to save - His two Advents.

I personally think it's more likely that 'bald head' is a slur accusing him of having leprosy, i.e. being unclean and cursed with death, than it is something banal like 'long nose' or 'big ears' - - all these things are pointing to Christ. All the details are significant and their significance is in their testimony of the person and work of Christ.

So what we have is idolatrous worshippers of Molech seeking to kill the typological God-man, in a passage strongly paralleling the crucifixion where Christ is told to 'come down' by unbelieving scorners. They are Israelites, unbelieving, adulterous Israelites, in a picture of not juse the rejection but the literal murderous hostility towards God.

So two bears are sent - why two? They are judgement, clearly - and the judgement of sin is death. The judgement of rejection of Christ is the second death: we have two bears, two deaths, a pronounced curse against the enemies of Messiah

Sounds good to me bro.....
You can't build doctrine on it.....but the types are certainly relevant.

 

[cv5]

he receives a new garment - that same mantle Elijah wore =]

so is he mourning Elijah or something else?

he sees him, and he has to see him in order to receive the new garment
we must similarly see Christ, to receive our new garment: when we do, do we mourn Christ?
or do we mourn those who refuse to believe? do we mourn our own lives before we came to faith?
we cast aside our own works as filthy rags, putting on Christ

Great thread bro......most edifying and profound. If you have any links to the commentaries please post them.

 

[cv5]

"
Bruce Waltke, writing in Ligonier Magazine about the parallels between Elisha and Jesus:

Both are designated by a prophet, whom the general populace recognized as a true prophet.​

Both receive the Spirit on the other side of the Jordan (2 Kings 2:7–15; John 1:28);​

are surrounded by more disciples than their predecessors;​

are itinerant miracle workers;​

give life in a land of death;​

cleanse lepers (2 Kings 5; Mark 1:40–45);​

heal the sick (2 Kings 4:34–35; Mark 8:22–25);​

defy gravity (2 Kings 6:6; Matt. 14:22–33);​

reverse death by raising dead sons and restoring them to their mothers (2 Kings 4: 1–7; Luke 7:11–17);​

help widows in desperate circumstances; are kinsman redeemers to save from slavery (2 Kings 4:1–7; Luke 4:19);​

feed the hungry (2 Kings 4:1–7; Mark 8:1–12);​

minister to the Gentiles (2 Kings 5:1–16);​

prepare (2 Kings 6:20–23) and sit at table with sinners (Luke 5:29);​

lead captives (2 Kings 6:18–20; Eph. 4:7–8);​

have a covetous disciple (Gehazi and Judas);​

end their lives in a life-giving tomb from which people flee (2 Kings 13:20–21; Mark 16:1–8).​

He also shows that Elisha is a type of Christ’s disciples:

elected by I AM;​

leaves father and mother behind;​

forsakes everything to be a disciple to his Master;​

becomes like his Master;​

perseveres with his Master;​

does greater works than these (2 Kings 4:31–35; John 14:12);​

brings life to those who stay close to their Master in a culture of death; and​

develops disciples for whom they also serve as types.​

​

Meditating on Scripture by Bruce Waltke (ligonier.org)

 

[cv5]

"Now let's swim farther out. Our reflection is confirmed in the career of another heir of Elijah's spirit, John the Baptist. Jesus Christ even equates John with Elijah (Matt. 17:1-13). Elijah and Elisha are types of the transition of leadership from John the Baptist to Jesus Christ. Elijah and John the Baptist announce judgment; call Israel to repentance and are followed by the common people; dress alike in their protests against materialism; confront an ambivalent king (Ahab and Herod) and a blood-thirsty queen; are rejected by authorities immediately after their victories; question God's calling; and designate a greater successor."

 

[cv5]

"But now let's really swim by comparing Elisha and the Lord Jesus. Both are designated by a prophet, whom the general populace recognized as a true prophet. Both receive the Spirit on the other side of the Jordan (2 Kings 2:7-15; John 1:28); are surrounded by more disciples than their predecessors; are itinerant miracle workers; give life in a land of death; cleanse lepers (2 Kings 5; Mark 1:40-45); heal the sick (2 Kings 4:34-35; Mark 8:22-25); defy gravity (2 Kings 6:6; Matt. 14:22-33); reverse death by raising dead sons and restoring them to their mothers (2 Kings 4: 1-7; Luke 7:11-17); help widows in desperate circumstances; are kinsman redeemers to save from slavery (2 Kings 4:1-7; Luke 4:19); feed the hungry (2 Kings 4:1-7; Mark 8:1-12); minister to the Gentiles (2 Kings 5:1-16); prepare (2 Kings 6:20-23) and sit at table with sinners (Luke 5:29); lead captives (2 Kings 6:18-20; Eph, 4:7-8); have a covetous disciple (Gehazi and Judas); end their lives in a life-giving tomb from which people flee (2 Kings 13:20-21; Mark 16:1-8). "

 

[cv5]

"These replications and foreshadows cry out for reflection. As God's elect children, we too can inherit—can be filled—with the same Spirit as Elijah, Elisha, John the Baptist, and our Lord by prayer and perseverance (Eph. 4:18). After all, as James says, "They were men just like us" (James 5:7). Elisha is a type of Christ's disciples: elected by I AM; leaves father and mother behind; forsakes everything to be a disciple to his Master; becomes like his Master; perseveres with his Master; does greater works than these (2 Kings 4:31-35; John 14:12); brings life to those who stay close to their Master in a culture of death; and develops disciples for whom they also serve as types. "

 

[Mii]

So two bears are sent - why two? They are judgement, clearly - and the judgement of sin is death. The judgement of rejection of Christ is the second death: we have two bears, two deaths, a pronounced curse against the enemies of Messiah

well...other than Revelation (2 witnesses for 42 months) I can't see much else.

During this 42 month period it will be to people that will be quite happy when they are gone so possibly similar to these "youths" or whatever they actually were. I always understood them to be teens personally.

I could see the two witnesses compared to the two she-bears


Took a while for this thread to come together for me but it clicked a bit today (as far as utility goes) so that's neat.

Either way it makes the passage considerably less disjointed and I don't feel up to expounding further currently but I like the concept.

 

[cv5]

And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head. And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them. ​

(2 Kings 2:2:23-24 kjv)​

​

• who are the two bears?
• who are the 42?
• why 42? why not 11? were there only 42, or more? how many total?
• why bears? why not giraffes?
• why 2? why not 31?
• how did the ones recording this know they are female bears?
• why female bears?

Great thread bro. It is threads like these that keep me coming back to CC.

 

[posthuman]

parallels:

• wicked king Ahaziah falls down.
  • asks Ba'alzebub if he will go up
• The Angel of the LORD ((preincarnate Christ)) tells Elijah to go up and tell Ahaziah he not come down from the sickbed he went up to, but "surely die"
  • 2 Kings 1:1-4

• Elijah goes up to the top of a hill. Ahaziah sends 50 soldiers with their captains, commanding Elijah to come down
  • Mark 15:30 -- Christ is mocked, the people telling Him to 'come down' from the cross
• Elijah says twice if he is a man of God, let fire come down -- fire comes down and consumes them
  • a third time, a third captain with 50 goes down on his knees, calls himself and his men Elijah's servants, and pleads for mercy
  • The Angel of the LORD ((preincarnate Christ)) tells Elijah to go down with him
  • Elijah 'goes down to the king' and gives him the same message he has heard from the beginning
  • it comes to pass
    • 1 captain + 50 = 51
    • 3*(51) = 153
    • fish. John 21. Peter is questioned 3 times.
  • 2 Kings 1:7-17

• Elijah crosses the Jor-Dan, river of death coming from Adam, and goes up.
• 50 soldiers of the sons of the prophets watch him cross
• Elijah goes up
• his mantle comes down, and Elisha takes it
• Elisha crosses the Jor-Dan, river of death coming from Adam.
• 3 times the sons of the prophets beg to send 50 soldiers to search for the body of Elijah
  • the 3rd time, Elisha is ashamed, and allows them to search in vain for the risen body
    • John 8:21 -- Jesus tells the unbelieving that they will look for Him and not find Him; that where He is going, they cannot come; they will die in their sins
  • 2 Kings 2:1-17

• Elisha goes up to Bethel, the center of idolatry in Israel
• a number of men ((soldiers?)) greater than 42 ((50?)) mock him, saying "go up! go up!"
  • it's written twice, "go up"
• Elisha pronounces the curse of God on them
• 2 female bears 'come out' of the woods and tear them to pieces
  • 2 Kings 2:23-25

a lot of going up and going down, in groups of 50's, in threes where the first two are different than the last one.
and finally a coming out

 

[posthuman]

parallels:

• a wicked Israeli king sends soldiers to Elijah on a hill saying "come down!"
  • 2 Kings 1:9-11
• wicked Israeli men serving Molech accost Elisha passing Bethel saying "go up!"
  • 2 Kings 2:23
• unbelieving Israel blasphemes Christ on the cross saying "come down!"
  • Mark 15:29-32

note that both Elijah & Elisha are typological figures of Christ: Elisha of His first advent, come to save, as priest -- and Elijah of His second advent, come to judge the world, as king. so when Elijah and Elisha are told to 'come down' or 'go up' - they are both prefiguring Christ; again: the entire point of the OT being recorded is testimony of Christ. that is the first and foremost interpretation. these are literal men and true accounts, but they are recorded because what they did and said are figures of the Lord Jesus.

in the case of Elijah and the 3 captains with their 50's and Elisha with the 50 military-age young men, the LORD responds with judgement. we see that the parallel passage in the life of Christ is His crucifixion, and that there, what these people do by saying "come down" and "save yourself" is defined specifically by scripture as blasphemy. Christ is God; He cannot be 'saved' and to think He must be saved is blasphemy. for Him to come down from the cross would be to make void salvation and withdraw His atoning sacrifice for us all.
likewise therefore with Elijah & Elisha, what the groups of 50 are doing is blasphemy, in type. they are commanding the man of God ((vis a vis the God-Man Christ)) in such a way that denies their anointing by God. if Elijah is truly a man of God, then he is not the servant of a wicked king to 'come down' at his beckoning, unless in judgement. if Elisha is truly a man of God, then he does not 'go up' to the abominable high place at Bethel, unless in judgement.

both these groups of soldiers accosting Elijah & Elisha have the intention of murdering them, hating them because of who they are and God whom they serve, and the message they bring. likewise with Christ, the very same people who sought to put Him to death are the ones at the cross mocking Him and taunting Him to come down from it. what is their intention were He to do so? they would seek to kill Him again, immediately.

 

[posthuman]

parallels:

• a wicked Israeli king sends soldiers to Elijah on a hill saying "come down!"
  • 2 Kings 1:9-11
• wicked Israeli men serving Molech accost Elisha passing Bethel saying "go up!"
  • 2 Kings 2:23
• unbelieving Israel blasphemes Christ on the cross saying "come down!"
  • Mark 15:29-32

note that both Elijah & Elisha are typological figures of Christ: Elisha of His first advent, come to save, as priest -- and Elijah of His second advent, come to judge the world, as king. so when Elijah and Elisha are told to 'come down' or 'go up' - they are both prefiguring Christ; again: the entire point of the OT being recorded is testimony of Christ. that is the first and foremost interpretation. these are literal men and true accounts, but they are recorded because what they did and said are figures of the Lord Jesus.

in the case of Elijah and the 3 captains with their 50's and Elisha with the 50 military-age young men, the LORD responds with judgement. we see that the parallel passage in the life of Christ is His crucifixion, and that there, what these people do by saying "come down" and "save yourself" is defined specifically by scripture as blasphemy. Christ is God; He cannot be 'saved' and to think He must be saved is blasphemy. for Him to come down from the cross would be to make void salvation and withdraw His atoning sacrifice for us all.
likewise therefore with Elijah & Elisha, what the groups of 50 are doing is blasphemy, in type. they are commanding the man of God ((vis a vis the God-Man Christ)) in such a way that denies their anointing by God. if Elijah is truly a man of God, then he is not the servant of a wicked king to 'come down' at his beckoning, unless in judgement. if Elisha is truly a man of God, then he does not 'go up' to the abominable high place at Bethel, unless in judgement.

both these groups of soldiers accosting Elijah & Elisha have the intention of murdering them, hating them because of who they are and God whom they serve, and the message they bring. likewise with Christ, the very same people who sought to put Him to death are the ones at the cross mocking Him and taunting Him to come down from it. what is their intention were He to do so? they would seek to kill Him again, immediately.

parallels:

in the case with Elijah and with Elisha the blasphemy of the servants of the wicked king and the servants of the wicked god is met with swift & immediate judgement from the LORD. these two things then are congruent:

• fire coming down from heaven
• two female bears coming out of the woods

the correspondence being established with Christ on the cross being similarly mocked, surrounded by 'bulls of Bashan' just as Elijah & Elisha were surrounded by soldiers, there must then also be a corresponding judgement spoken by Christ on the cross. He said 7 things -- which of them corresponds to these?
clearly being devoured by fire from heaven and torn apart by bears sent by the LORD is tantamount to being forsaken by God; judged & found worthy of death. there is then this tautology:

• fire from heaven :: two female bears :: Psalm 22:1

most of the church today, tacitly denying the deity & innocence of Christ, supposes that when He quotes this song on the cross in a loud voice, He is talking about Himself.
i do not believe this is the case. what Christ is doing is speaking judgement on those who are blaspheming Him even while He is making propitiation for them; for it is those who deny Him who are truly forsaken, just as the wicked king who sought to kill Elijah because of the message from God he spoke, and just like the wicked men who sought to kill Elisha because of who he is. in the same way these people who reject the gospel Jesus proclaimed, and who reject Who He is, the very same people who then sought to kill Him for these things: His Person, His Word -- these are those who are under judgement, mocking Him, scorning Him, blaspheming in denial of The Truth. these are those who are forsaken by God in their unbelief, blinded by it, wondering, why have You forsaken us?

but the 3rd captain fell at Elijah's feet asking for mercy.
but 8 of the 50 who surrounded Elisha were spared.
but the 50 sons of the prophets at Jericho, who blasphemed saying 'let us search for the body of the ascended man of God' ((vis a vis denying the bodily resurrection)), when they saw their error, asked for mercy to lift the curse of Jericho, and it was granted to them -- with a new bowl & salt.

 

[jb]

​

• who are the two bears?

Yogi and Boo-Boo?

 

[cv5]

Typology That Is True to the Text: What Elijah and Elisha Point Out for Modern Interpreters of Scripture | Via Emmaus (davidschrock.com)

"Elijah is a type of John the Baptist (Matt. 11:14; Mark 9:9-13; Luke 1:17), and the transition from Elijah to Elisha foreshadows the succession from John to Jesus. Like John, Elijah is a lone voice in the wilderness, but Elisha is surrounded by disciples. Jesus’s ministry is a ministry of life-giving miracles—cleansing lepers (Mark 1:40-45), raising dead sons and restoring them to their mothers (Luke 7:11-17), relieving distress. Similarly, Elisha raises the dead (2 Kgs. 4:18-37), provides a meal for one hundred men from twenty loaves of barley bread (4:42-44), cleanses a leper (2 Kgs. 5). On the surface of things, Elisha is a type of Jesus.

But the typology works another way as well: Elijah is a type of Jesus himself, and Elisha of the disciples who continued Jesus’s ministry after his ascension. Elisha first appears plowing a field, but he leaves home and family (1 Kgs. Elisha 19:19-21) like the disciples of Jesus who leave their fishing boats and tax booths to follow him. At the beginning of 2 Kgs. 2, Elisha doggedly follows his master, refusing to stay behind, until Elijah is taken from him in a whirlwind. Because he follows Elijah, Elisha becomes like his master, and after Elijah departs he immediately begins to replicate his ministry. Having received the promised double portion of Elijah’s spirit, Elisha is a “reincarnation” (or “reanimation”) of Elijah, as the church is the body of Christ in the Spirit of Jesus. The sons of the prophets recognize the family resemblance between Elisha and his predecessor, just as the Jews perceive the of Peter and the apostles and courage remember they have been with Jesus (Acts 4:13)."

 

[cv5]

"The story of 2 Kgs. 2 reaches backward as well. Throughout his ministry, Elijah is a new Moses, and Elisha his Joshua. Ahab is Pharaoh, and once his son dies (Passover), Elijah and Elisha leave the land whose gods are defeated and whose prince is dead (exodus). Elijah departs on the far side of the Jordan, as Moses does, while Elisha returns to carry on a conquest, significantly starting at Jericho. The christological typology is thus multilayered: Moses is Elijah is John; Joshua is Elisha is Jesus. Yet also, Moses is Elijah is Jesus, and Joshua is Elisha is the church. (1 and 2 Kings, 171–72) "

"In 1–2 Kings, we find good evidence for seeing the way Scripture is written typologically. And we who read and preach the Bible should labor to see Christ in all of Scripture in the ways it has been written. As Hebrews 1 puts it, “Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, . . .”

 

[Saul-to-Paul]

Take home message: there's no age of accountability.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Take home message: there's no age of accountability.

Then Paul did not reach his "age of accountability for sin," when this happened?:

Rom_7:9 "For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."?
-----------------------------
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II)!