Does God desire the salvation of all mankind?
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Romans 1:16 Salvation is only through believing the gospel of Christ. Jesus saves!
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
16For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.
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Yeah. Reminds me of the book on boundaries by Henry Cloud.
A group of aliens send an emissary to earth because they want a God to worship and see earth have something there.
The emissary comes back with two gods..
One is all truth.. rules.. regulations, no mercy, no pardon. Legalism.
The other is all grace, freedom, love, but no boundaries or rules.
One group of the aliens goes to worship the truth only god.. another group goes to worship the grace only God.
The truth group have direction and rules but feel oppressed and shunned, under the hammer of truth.
The second group feel pleasure and a freedom but are frustrated by a lack of boundaries and direction. It's too permissive and no one is getting anywhere.
So they convene a council to talk about the problems..
They come up with a solution to combine grace and truth.
So they have direction and purpose with unconditional love underpinning it.
They finally get one God of grace and truth.
A group of aliens send an emissary to earth because they want a God to worship and see earth have something there.
The emissary comes back with two gods..
One is all truth.. rules.. regulations, no mercy, no pardon. Legalism.
The other is all grace, freedom, love, but no boundaries or rules.
One group of the aliens goes to worship the truth only god.. another group goes to worship the grace only God.
The truth group have direction and rules but feel oppressed and shunned, under the hammer of truth.
The second group feel pleasure and a freedom but are frustrated by a lack of boundaries and direction. It's too permissive and no one is getting anywhere.
So they convene a council to talk about the problems..
They come up with a solution to combine grace and truth.
So they have direction and purpose with unconditional love underpinning it.
They finally get one God of grace and truth.
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True dat!
God's perfection, man's responsibility of perfection, man's inability to comply and man's need for a savior is scripture and the gospel in a nutshell.
Discussing soteriology with an Arminian or Pelagian (of any kind) is sort of like discussing the deity of Christ with a JW or Muslim, they always want to drag you into the weeds. For years I've been contemplating, searching for a simple death blow that even the most ignorant "Pelagian" would understand and I think I'm onto something. Incidentally, this new theory, this new (ever evolving) approach of mine came from debating JW's and Muslims. I realized that neither know if they'll go to "heaven", they both claim "God" will choose based on man's action. That is to say, both religions are of works. In fact all religions, except Christianity, require action of man for "salvation", they are all of works.
Pelagianism in its many forms, conclude man's action is required on some level and because of this some rightly conclude the Pelagian doctrines to be of works. This works connection to all satanic religions should be enough to persuade the Pelagian but in true form, into the weeds they go.
Let's look at Pelagianism.
Pelagianism is named after Pelagius, a monk who lived in the late 300s and early 400s AD. Pelagius began teaching the doctrine associated with his name in an effort to promote holy living among Christians. When people sinned, Pelagius grew weary of hearing the excuse of “I can’t help it. It’s in my nature to do wrong.” To counter that excuse, Pelagius stressed the freedom of the human will, essentially teaching that all sin is the result of a conscious choice of evil over good; everyone has the ability to freely choose to do good all the time. And, since there is no such thing as original sin or an inherited sin nature, then we cannot blame Adam. God created us good, so no one ever has an excuse for sinning. If you’re not living a holy life, it’s because you’re not trying hard enough... Pelagius, an ascetic and philosopher from the British Isles, taught that God could not command believers to do the impossible, and therefore it must be possible to satisfy all divine commandments.
Note the claim of man's ability and his duty to act. Now lets have a look at Semi-Pelagianism.
Semi-Pelagianism was promulgated in the fifth century AD by John Cassian and some other church leaders in France. It took a middle-of-the-road approach to depravity; we are depraved, but not totally so. Semi-Pelagianism allows that humanity is tainted by sin, but not to the extent that we cannot cooperate with God’s grace on our own. Semi-Pelagianism is, in essence, partial depravity as opposed to total depravity. We are sinful, but we can still recognize the truth, cooperate with God’s grace, and choose to seek Christ. We need God’s grace to be saved, but we can take the first step toward Christ on our own, apart from grace.
Again we see this teaching of man's ability paired with action. What about Arminianism?
According to Arminianism, salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond); man’s response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man’s will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be recipients of the gift of salvation.
More subtle than the Pelagian heresy yet Arminianism still retains this concept of man's ability paired with action.
Let's try one more, reformed Arminianism.
Reformed Arminians disagree with the teaching of perfectionism or entire sanctification found in some Arminian circles. In addition, Reformed Arminianism accepts the Reformed teachings of original sin and total depravity, believing it is only the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit that can overcome human depravity. At the same time, Reformed Arminianism retains the Arminian view of predestination (God elected those He knew would believe) and the freedom of the will (one is able to resist the grace of God needed to save him).
The most subtle of them all, reformed Arminianism attempts to bridge the grace gap yet retains this notion of man's ability.
All satanic religions are of works but what are works? What is behind every satanic, fruitless work? It is first the notion that man is able to perform it. In other words, behind all satanic doctrines of works is found this notion of man's ability.
Eve in the garden. "You shall be as God". Before Eve acted, this notion of ability was planted by satan. In her mind she actually believed she was able to be as God.
Satan's fall. Satan first had to believe he was able, that he actually had the ability to be as God.
Tower of Babel.
Gen 11:3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”
5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
The list goes on...
It seems that behind every insane idea in scripture is this notion of ability, this "seed of ability" planted in the mind by satan.
However, the entirety of scripture is used by God to reveal man's inability. God requires perfect love, perfect fear, perfect joy, perfect thanks and perfect belief to name a few. Scripture unequivocally states man is unable to achieve any of these. God's perfection, man's responsibility of perfection, man's inability to comply and man's need for a savior is scripture and the gospel in a nutshell. These are simple truths.
This is where Pelagius' heresy is revealed, he denies the simple gospel truth of man's inability. Why? Perhaps satan, who seeks to distort our simple gospel, plants the seed of ability by whispering in the ear of the "Pelagian","Did God really say faith is a gift? God wouldn't command you to do something you're not able to do would he? Surely you have the ability to believe."
To deny man's inability is to deny the entire theme of the Bible and the true gospel of grace. This gospel of grace, most recently popularized by the reformers, is the only gospel known to mankind that claims salvation is entirely of the Lord. Please let that sink in.
An interesting side note. As we would expect, a brief look into the history of churches that adopted some form of Pelagianism will reveal other heresies, for heresy breeds heresy. The Methodist church, classic Pentecostalism, Free will Baptists and the Roman Catholic Church to name a few. Not all in these churches are heretical but all these churches breed heresy in some form.
God's perfection, man's responsibility of perfection, man's inability to comply and man's need for a savior is scripture and the gospel in a nutshell.
Discussing soteriology with an Arminian or Pelagian (of any kind) is sort of like discussing the deity of Christ with a JW or Muslim, they always want to drag you into the weeds. For years I've been contemplating, searching for a simple death blow that even the most ignorant "Pelagian" would understand and I think I'm onto something. Incidentally, this new theory, this new (ever evolving) approach of mine came from debating JW's and Muslims. I realized that neither know if they'll go to "heaven", they both claim "God" will choose based on man's action. That is to say, both religions are of works. In fact all religions, except Christianity, require action of man for "salvation", they are all of works.
Pelagianism in its many forms, conclude man's action is required on some level and because of this some rightly conclude the Pelagian doctrines to be of works. This works connection to all satanic religions should be enough to persuade the Pelagian but in true form, into the weeds they go.
Let's look at Pelagianism.
Pelagianism is named after Pelagius, a monk who lived in the late 300s and early 400s AD. Pelagius began teaching the doctrine associated with his name in an effort to promote holy living among Christians. When people sinned, Pelagius grew weary of hearing the excuse of “I can’t help it. It’s in my nature to do wrong.” To counter that excuse, Pelagius stressed the freedom of the human will, essentially teaching that all sin is the result of a conscious choice of evil over good; everyone has the ability to freely choose to do good all the time. And, since there is no such thing as original sin or an inherited sin nature, then we cannot blame Adam. God created us good, so no one ever has an excuse for sinning. If you’re not living a holy life, it’s because you’re not trying hard enough... Pelagius, an ascetic and philosopher from the British Isles, taught that God could not command believers to do the impossible, and therefore it must be possible to satisfy all divine commandments.
Note the claim of man's ability and his duty to act. Now lets have a look at Semi-Pelagianism.
Semi-Pelagianism was promulgated in the fifth century AD by John Cassian and some other church leaders in France. It took a middle-of-the-road approach to depravity; we are depraved, but not totally so. Semi-Pelagianism allows that humanity is tainted by sin, but not to the extent that we cannot cooperate with God’s grace on our own. Semi-Pelagianism is, in essence, partial depravity as opposed to total depravity. We are sinful, but we can still recognize the truth, cooperate with God’s grace, and choose to seek Christ. We need God’s grace to be saved, but we can take the first step toward Christ on our own, apart from grace.
Again we see this teaching of man's ability paired with action. What about Arminianism?
According to Arminianism, salvation is accomplished through the combined efforts of God (who takes the initiative) and man (who must respond); man’s response being the determining factor. God has provided salvation for everyone, but His provision becomes effective only for those who, of their own free will, choose to cooperate with Him and accept His offer of grace. At the crucial point, man’s will plays a decisive role; thus man, not God, determines who will be recipients of the gift of salvation.
More subtle than the Pelagian heresy yet Arminianism still retains this concept of man's ability paired with action.
Let's try one more, reformed Arminianism.
Reformed Arminians disagree with the teaching of perfectionism or entire sanctification found in some Arminian circles. In addition, Reformed Arminianism accepts the Reformed teachings of original sin and total depravity, believing it is only the grace of God and the power of the Holy Spirit that can overcome human depravity. At the same time, Reformed Arminianism retains the Arminian view of predestination (God elected those He knew would believe) and the freedom of the will (one is able to resist the grace of God needed to save him).
The most subtle of them all, reformed Arminianism attempts to bridge the grace gap yet retains this notion of man's ability.
All satanic religions are of works but what are works? What is behind every satanic, fruitless work? It is first the notion that man is able to perform it. In other words, behind all satanic doctrines of works is found this notion of man's ability.
Eve in the garden. "You shall be as God". Before Eve acted, this notion of ability was planted by satan. In her mind she actually believed she was able to be as God.
Satan's fall. Satan first had to believe he was able, that he actually had the ability to be as God.
Tower of Babel.
Gen 11:3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”
5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”
The list goes on...
It seems that behind every insane idea in scripture is this notion of ability, this "seed of ability" planted in the mind by satan.
However, the entirety of scripture is used by God to reveal man's inability. God requires perfect love, perfect fear, perfect joy, perfect thanks and perfect belief to name a few. Scripture unequivocally states man is unable to achieve any of these. God's perfection, man's responsibility of perfection, man's inability to comply and man's need for a savior is scripture and the gospel in a nutshell. These are simple truths.
This is where Pelagius' heresy is revealed, he denies the simple gospel truth of man's inability. Why? Perhaps satan, who seeks to distort our simple gospel, plants the seed of ability by whispering in the ear of the "Pelagian","Did God really say faith is a gift? God wouldn't command you to do something you're not able to do would he? Surely you have the ability to believe."
To deny man's inability is to deny the entire theme of the Bible and the true gospel of grace. This gospel of grace, most recently popularized by the reformers, is the only gospel known to mankind that claims salvation is entirely of the Lord. Please let that sink in.
An interesting side note. As we would expect, a brief look into the history of churches that adopted some form of Pelagianism will reveal other heresies, for heresy breeds heresy. The Methodist church, classic Pentecostalism, Free will Baptists and the Roman Catholic Church to name a few. Not all in these churches are heretical but all these churches breed heresy in some form.
Remember Job's trials? God testing his fielty, faith, using Satan as his agent.
The whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
1 John 5.
I think that's because we were put under the power of the evil one when Adam and Eve chose to follow the Serpent's leading to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit.
Now like Job it's a test of faith and fielty. God gives us right instruction again, like he did in the beginning , and we choose whom we will serve.
Only there's a caviar. Unlike Job who was already faith filled for God, we of a natural worldly mind cannot understand God's teaching unless God opens our consciousness to understand his truth.
I think that's where the sheep and the goats parables come in.
Some are God's sheep. Others are Satan's goat's.
God is sovereign and every decision is of the Lord.
The question then, does God desire all to be saved, is answered by God.
No.
Obviously.
Because Sovereign God could indeed save the whole world.
He could have saved it by sending the first sinners, in Heaven no less, to the Hell he made for them immediately after their defeat in the war in Heaven.
But he instead cast them down to earth. And while Satan started the war in Heaven thinking he could do a better job at being God than God could, after Satan and his followers lost the war God made him Lord, god, of this world.
Now with God's permission, as happened with Job, the whole world lies in the power of the evil one,Satan.
And no inhabitant is liberated from the natural mind of this world unless God's Holy Spiritallows that.
God is Sovereign. Our natural mind is from God because he allows that too. That condition only abates if God wills. That isn't our choice.
It's God's design.
All of it. Eternally. The wager God made with Satan, whom he kicked out of Heaven yet allows to re-enter from time to time to confer about us, tells me life is a casino. And the games are rigged.
Because the whole thing shows us God is Sovereign. And the whole world lies in the power all creation and created, even Satan and his minions, lies in the power of God.
Why? Look to nature. Polarity, duality. Sunlight , darkness. Up, down, good, evil.
Why? I think it is to tell us all is God. Because God is all.
Maybe the seperation between us and God is an illusion that is overcome not when we realize that but, when we live it. 🕊️ Maybe that's what Salvation is grounded in.
The whole world lies in the power of the evil one.
1 John 5.
I think that's because we were put under the power of the evil one when Adam and Eve chose to follow the Serpent's leading to disobey God and eat the forbidden fruit.
Now like Job it's a test of faith and fielty. God gives us right instruction again, like he did in the beginning , and we choose whom we will serve.
Only there's a caviar. Unlike Job who was already faith filled for God, we of a natural worldly mind cannot understand God's teaching unless God opens our consciousness to understand his truth.
I think that's where the sheep and the goats parables come in.
Some are God's sheep. Others are Satan's goat's.
God is sovereign and every decision is of the Lord.
The question then, does God desire all to be saved, is answered by God.
No.
Obviously.
Because Sovereign God could indeed save the whole world.
He could have saved it by sending the first sinners, in Heaven no less, to the Hell he made for them immediately after their defeat in the war in Heaven.
But he instead cast them down to earth. And while Satan started the war in Heaven thinking he could do a better job at being God than God could, after Satan and his followers lost the war God made him Lord, god, of this world.
Now with God's permission, as happened with Job, the whole world lies in the power of the evil one,Satan.
And no inhabitant is liberated from the natural mind of this world unless God's Holy Spiritallows that.
God is Sovereign. Our natural mind is from God because he allows that too. That condition only abates if God wills. That isn't our choice.
It's God's design.
All of it. Eternally. The wager God made with Satan, whom he kicked out of Heaven yet allows to re-enter from time to time to confer about us, tells me life is a casino. And the games are rigged.
Because the whole thing shows us God is Sovereign. And the whole world lies in the power all creation and created, even Satan and his minions, lies in the power of God.
Why? Look to nature. Polarity, duality. Sunlight , darkness. Up, down, good, evil.
Why? I think it is to tell us all is God. Because God is all.
Maybe the seperation between us and God is an illusion that is overcome not when we realize that but, when we live it. 🕊️ Maybe that's what Salvation is grounded in.
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Are you saying though.. that like a full 5 point calvinist will say...that a person is converted before they believe?
The Bible does have people believing in Christ to be converted. They weren't saved before believing. They were drawn by God.. so they could believe.. but not saved before believing.
They could also resist and not be converted... not that they weren't chosen to believe and so couldn't believe.. but that they rejected salvation to begin with by their will.
So yeah... I'm not arminian, pelegian or calvinist. Just plain looking at scripture.
Anyway.. I tink I already discussed this with ya. Nevermind uh.
The Bible does have people believing in Christ to be converted. They weren't saved before believing. They were drawn by God.. so they could believe.. but not saved before believing.
They could also resist and not be converted... not that they weren't chosen to believe and so couldn't believe.. but that they rejected salvation to begin with by their will.
So yeah... I'm not arminian, pelegian or calvinist. Just plain looking at scripture.
Anyway.. I tink I already discussed this with ya. Nevermind uh.
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