If we want to celebrate the birth of Christ, why not pick a new date and new name?
- Thread starter ResidentAlien
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Mine too! 
O Come O Come Emmanuel, is another nice Christmas Carol. Mentioned as the 7th in the above. Video below:
"
O Come, O Come, Emmanuel – full lyrics
O come, O come, Emmanuel,
And ransom captive Israel,
That mourns in lonely exile here,
Until the Son of God appear.
Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel
Shall come to thee, O Israel.
O come, Thou Rod of Jesse, free
Thine own from Satan's tyranny;
From depths of hell Thy people save,
And give them victory o'er the grave.
Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel
Shall come to thee, O Israel.
O come, Thou Dayspring, from on high,
And cheer us by Thy drawing nigh;
Disperse the gloomy clouds of night,
And death's dark shadows put to flight.
Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel
Shall come to thee, O Israel.
O come, Thou Key of David, come
And open wide our heav'nly home;
Make safe the way that leads on high,
And close the path to misery.
Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel
Shall come to thee, O Israel.
O come, Adonai, Lord of might,
Who to Thy tribes, on Sinai's height,
In ancient times didst give the law
In cloud and majesty and awe.
Rejoice! Rejoice! Emmanuel
Shall come to thee, O Israel."
-
1
- Show all
Hi Persistent. You may like the 2nd article below. My opinion is the early Christians, especially in those days when Christians were still predominantly Jewish, would probably have celebrated Christmas as part of their Hannukah celebrations, now with a Christ-centric focus, seeing Him as the fulfilment of that Festival of Light. Later, the observance would have shifted from Kislev 25th (Kislev is roughly December, hence Hannukah and Christmas sometimes coincide, but not always) to December 25th. See below for more on that
Please see this from Wiki on relative dates: "Exact coincidence of Hanukkah with Christmas[edit source]
In 2005, the sunset of December 25 coincided with 25 Kislev, the first night of Hanukkah, making Christmas Day and the beginning of Hanukkah the same day. This will not happen again until 2024. In 2016, the sunset of December 24 coincided with 25 Kislev, the first day of Hanukkah, making Christmas Eve and the beginning of Hanukkah the same day.[19][20] This will not happen again until 2027.[20]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrismukkah
Now, the article - this was from a Messianic Jewish Christian perspective: https://ffoz.org/discover/hanukkah/did-christmas-originate-with-hanukkah.html
"In the incredibly short-lived English journal of 1910 called The Messianic Jew, Chaim Yedidyah Pollak (a.k.a. Theophilus Lucky) wrote an article entitled “Hanukkah or Christmas—Which?”
The article was intended as a plea to his fellow Messianic Jews/Jewish Christians (the titles were more or less synonymous in Lucky’s day) to not abandon Hanukkah in order to celebrate Christmas in its stead.
According to Lucky’s description, some Jewish believers of his day saw little reason to continue the celebration of Hanukkah since the name of the Messiah is not specifically mentioned as it is during Christmas. Through a series of pleas and arguments, Lucky proposes celebrating the birth of the Master during Hanukkah, and even goes so far as to say that the Jewish believer should celebrate the Messiah’s birth at Hanukkah, although I’m sure he is not envisioning “Hanukkah bushes,” Rabbi Santa Clauses, or mistletoe. He says that Jewish believers should celebrate it, because he believes that Jewish believers historically did, just not on December 25th. It is an interesting argument, and certainly one that is controversial both in our day as well as his. However, the support he gives for this opinion is one that is truly unique and thought-provoking.
25th of Kislev, 25th of Tevet
Hanukkah begins every year on the 25th of Kislev on the Jewish calendar. Its date varies according to the Gregorian calendar, since the two calendars are not in sync. Lucky believes that the birth of Messiah was celebrated every year at Hanukkah, on the 25th of Kislev, by the early Jewish believers, as well as the early Gentile believers who were coming into the faith. He puts forth this opinion because he believes that the Messiah was born on the 25th of Kislev, or thereabouts. And since Kislev corresponds roughly to November, he says that there is no difficulty in thinking that the shepherds were out sleeping in the fields, for it would not have been too cold yet.
However, he posits that as the body of believers became predominantly Gentile, they decided that they wanted to be more in line with the Greco-Roman calendar and change the date from the 25th of Kislev to the 25th of Tevet (which corresponds roughly to December). As a way of providing proof that Christmas and Hanukkah were once connected, he notes that unlike any other Christian holiday, it is an immovable feast, just like Hanukkah is on the Jewish calendar. Also, unlike any other Christian holiday, it begins in the evening of the previous day, just like every Jewish holiday. Finally, the fact that they are both festivals of lights is the cherry on top to his argument that the two holidays were originally one.
His points are indeed compelling. Nevertheless, it is impossible to definitively corroborate Lucky’s theory with historical documentation, as there are many theories as to how Christmas got its date of December 25th. However, Lucky’s theory is one newly discovered to now consider along with the myriads of others.
An Interesting Theory
I sum this up as an interesting theory. This is not meant to encourage an observance one way or the other, but as a glimpse inside the inner workings of the mind of a Messianic Jewish luminary. Whether or not we agree with all of Lucky’s entreaties, or whether or not his assertions are indeed historically accurate, the beautiful and compelling fact that remains about this great teacher was that he earnestly called for Jewish believers to remain within the Mosaic and Judaic religious fold. He wanted Jews to retain their identity and expression, and to be a recognizable entity. Also just as beautiful is that even in his firm allegiance to Rabbinic Judaism, he still envisions Yeshua at the very center, determining and informing its expression in the life of a believer.
Many have either positive or negative views of Rabbinic Judaism. Lucky’s was highly positive, yet still entirely defined by his faith in and discipleship to Yeshua. Many also have strong feelings concerning Christmas and its origins. Lucky was not worried so much about any pagan tones to Christmas, rather he was concerned with the loss of Jewish allegiance to the Torah of Moses and the identification with the Jewish nation. In fact, it appears that he views Christmas as a thoroughly Jewish holiday, just celebrated on the wrong date.
Whatever your views or convictions, hopefully Lucky’s words at the very least prove interesting. His perspective is surely unique, and he never fails to produce an intriguing viewpoint for us to chew on. For more on the life and works of Chaim Yedidyah Pollak, a.k.a. Theophilus Lucky, stay tuned for a forthcoming resource from Vine of David."
Please see this from Wiki on relative dates: "Exact coincidence of Hanukkah with Christmas[edit source]
In 2005, the sunset of December 25 coincided with 25 Kislev, the first night of Hanukkah, making Christmas Day and the beginning of Hanukkah the same day. This will not happen again until 2024. In 2016, the sunset of December 24 coincided with 25 Kislev, the first day of Hanukkah, making Christmas Eve and the beginning of Hanukkah the same day.[19][20] This will not happen again until 2027.[20]" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chrismukkah
Now, the article - this was from a Messianic Jewish Christian perspective: https://ffoz.org/discover/hanukkah/did-christmas-originate-with-hanukkah.html
"In the incredibly short-lived English journal of 1910 called The Messianic Jew, Chaim Yedidyah Pollak (a.k.a. Theophilus Lucky) wrote an article entitled “Hanukkah or Christmas—Which?”
The article was intended as a plea to his fellow Messianic Jews/Jewish Christians (the titles were more or less synonymous in Lucky’s day) to not abandon Hanukkah in order to celebrate Christmas in its stead.
According to Lucky’s description, some Jewish believers of his day saw little reason to continue the celebration of Hanukkah since the name of the Messiah is not specifically mentioned as it is during Christmas. Through a series of pleas and arguments, Lucky proposes celebrating the birth of the Master during Hanukkah, and even goes so far as to say that the Jewish believer should celebrate the Messiah’s birth at Hanukkah, although I’m sure he is not envisioning “Hanukkah bushes,” Rabbi Santa Clauses, or mistletoe. He says that Jewish believers should celebrate it, because he believes that Jewish believers historically did, just not on December 25th. It is an interesting argument, and certainly one that is controversial both in our day as well as his. However, the support he gives for this opinion is one that is truly unique and thought-provoking.
25th of Kislev, 25th of Tevet
Hanukkah begins every year on the 25th of Kislev on the Jewish calendar. Its date varies according to the Gregorian calendar, since the two calendars are not in sync. Lucky believes that the birth of Messiah was celebrated every year at Hanukkah, on the 25th of Kislev, by the early Jewish believers, as well as the early Gentile believers who were coming into the faith. He puts forth this opinion because he believes that the Messiah was born on the 25th of Kislev, or thereabouts. And since Kislev corresponds roughly to November, he says that there is no difficulty in thinking that the shepherds were out sleeping in the fields, for it would not have been too cold yet.
However, he posits that as the body of believers became predominantly Gentile, they decided that they wanted to be more in line with the Greco-Roman calendar and change the date from the 25th of Kislev to the 25th of Tevet (which corresponds roughly to December). As a way of providing proof that Christmas and Hanukkah were once connected, he notes that unlike any other Christian holiday, it is an immovable feast, just like Hanukkah is on the Jewish calendar. Also, unlike any other Christian holiday, it begins in the evening of the previous day, just like every Jewish holiday. Finally, the fact that they are both festivals of lights is the cherry on top to his argument that the two holidays were originally one.
His points are indeed compelling. Nevertheless, it is impossible to definitively corroborate Lucky’s theory with historical documentation, as there are many theories as to how Christmas got its date of December 25th. However, Lucky’s theory is one newly discovered to now consider along with the myriads of others.
An Interesting Theory
I sum this up as an interesting theory. This is not meant to encourage an observance one way or the other, but as a glimpse inside the inner workings of the mind of a Messianic Jewish luminary. Whether or not we agree with all of Lucky’s entreaties, or whether or not his assertions are indeed historically accurate, the beautiful and compelling fact that remains about this great teacher was that he earnestly called for Jewish believers to remain within the Mosaic and Judaic religious fold. He wanted Jews to retain their identity and expression, and to be a recognizable entity. Also just as beautiful is that even in his firm allegiance to Rabbinic Judaism, he still envisions Yeshua at the very center, determining and informing its expression in the life of a believer.
Many have either positive or negative views of Rabbinic Judaism. Lucky’s was highly positive, yet still entirely defined by his faith in and discipleship to Yeshua. Many also have strong feelings concerning Christmas and its origins. Lucky was not worried so much about any pagan tones to Christmas, rather he was concerned with the loss of Jewish allegiance to the Torah of Moses and the identification with the Jewish nation. In fact, it appears that he views Christmas as a thoroughly Jewish holiday, just celebrated on the wrong date.
Whatever your views or convictions, hopefully Lucky’s words at the very least prove interesting. His perspective is surely unique, and he never fails to produce an intriguing viewpoint for us to chew on. For more on the life and works of Chaim Yedidyah Pollak, a.k.a. Theophilus Lucky, stay tuned for a forthcoming resource from Vine of David."
Interestingly, during World War I, there was a brief truce for Christmas between Britain, France and Germany, as both nations must have wondered why on Earth they were fighting each other just because of someone's say-so. Christ is the Prince of Peace and brings Peace to men of good will on His Birth, and gives Glory to God in Heaven above, just like the Angels sang on His Birth. Hopefully, something similar happens in the Current War between Russia and Ukraine, which both also have a significant Christian Population, just like Britain, France and Germany did. Here is the reference: "The Christmas truce (German: Weihnachtsfrieden; French: Trêve de Noël; Dutch: Kerstbestand) was a series of widespread unofficial ceasefires along the Western Front of the First World War around Christmas 1914...
The Christmas truces were particularly significant due to the number of men involved and the level of their participation—even in quiet sectors, dozens of men openly congregating in daylight was remarkable—and are often seen as a symbolic moment of peace and humanity amidst one of the most violent conflicts of human history." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce
Silent Night was written at that time, per that 30 Christmas carols list: "2. Silent Night
Originally written in German, ‘Stille Nacht’ was composed in 1818 by Franz Xaver Gruber with lyrics by Joseph Mohr, and was translated to English in 1859. During the Christmas truce of 1914 during World War I, the carol was sung simultaneously by English and German troops."
"Silent night, holy night All is calm, all is bright Round yon Virgin Mother and Child Holy infant so tender and mild Sleep in heavenly peace Sleep in heavenly peace
Silent night, holy night Shepherds quake at the sight Glories stream from heaven afar Heavenly hosts sing Alleluia Christ, the Saviour is born Christ, the Saviour is born
Silent night, holy night Son of God, love’s pure light Radiant beams from Thy holy face With the dawn of redeeming grace Jesus, Lord, at Thy birth Jesus, Lord, at Thy birth"
Again, 40 MN views. People clearly love Christmas Carols, lol. A good way to reach them imo with the heart of the Gospel. Of course if someone can explain to them personally the meaning of the words they're singing, with Gospel references, that's better, and that's what each one of us can do during this holy Season, for our non-Christian friends, as well as Christian friends who may not have had a deep encounter with Our Lord and Savior yet. God Bless.
The Christmas truces were particularly significant due to the number of men involved and the level of their participation—even in quiet sectors, dozens of men openly congregating in daylight was remarkable—and are often seen as a symbolic moment of peace and humanity amidst one of the most violent conflicts of human history." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christmas_truce
Silent Night was written at that time, per that 30 Christmas carols list: "2. Silent Night
Originally written in German, ‘Stille Nacht’ was composed in 1818 by Franz Xaver Gruber with lyrics by Joseph Mohr, and was translated to English in 1859. During the Christmas truce of 1914 during World War I, the carol was sung simultaneously by English and German troops."
"Silent night, holy night All is calm, all is bright Round yon Virgin Mother and Child Holy infant so tender and mild Sleep in heavenly peace Sleep in heavenly peace
Silent night, holy night Shepherds quake at the sight Glories stream from heaven afar Heavenly hosts sing Alleluia Christ, the Saviour is born Christ, the Saviour is born
Silent night, holy night Son of God, love’s pure light Radiant beams from Thy holy face With the dawn of redeeming grace Jesus, Lord, at Thy birth Jesus, Lord, at Thy birth"
Again, 40 MN views. People clearly love Christmas Carols, lol. A good way to reach them imo with the heart of the Gospel. Of course if someone can explain to them personally the meaning of the words they're singing, with Gospel references, that's better, and that's what each one of us can do during this holy Season, for our non-Christian friends, as well as Christian friends who may not have had a deep encounter with Our Lord and Savior yet. God Bless.
-
1
- Show all
P
Thnx Xavier, Incredible to me, all the contingent factors which come in to play with religion. As an agnostic there wasn't this much study. Vine of David googled right up with search for Theophilus Lucky. This link>>>Theophilus Lucky | Remnant Repository | Vine of David (ffoz.org)
-
1
- Show all
I included ^ this version ^ in my welcome messages for a while
1. This and other older hymns of the faith speak of suffering we rarely experience (although I know there is persecution in places)
2. The message of this and other older hymns are in part lost because modern churches don't tend to sing all the verses in worship
-
2
-
1
-
1
- Show all
P
Hey Magenta, Says 12th century author unknown. And seems also to not have understood scriptures available or had corrupt translation? Immanuel is title Jesus will use at 2nd Advent and the piece here in first stanza is about the ransom Jesus already made. Hope my understanding is correct as it would mean I am improving. First stanza;>>"....come and ransom captive Israel...". Israel at first Advent was Roman province. 'captive'?
Another person I discuss these matters with claims the people he is associated with are some of the 'Israelites' which will be gathered by 'Immanuel' after the day of Jacob's trouble. As here>>>
Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
And this Jeremiah 30:
8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10 ¶ Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. 11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
It is uncanny that the 1619 'project' here in US is relative to Jeremiah 16:19 in some strange way. And slavery here is close to 450 years like ancient Israel. There are other verses that uncannily fit with the teaching these folks have. My interest was based on Acts 15:15-18 which the brother I talk with doesn't agree that this applies. Seems that it applies and is from Amos 9:11-12
And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
The brother, Ozias, tells me they look forward to the tribulation. Bible says some are going through that and surviving. This is maybe a bit much of a post.
Another person I discuss these matters with claims the people he is associated with are some of the 'Israelites' which will be gathered by 'Immanuel' after the day of Jacob's trouble. As here>>>
Jeremiah 30:7 Alas! for that day is great, so that none is like it: it is even the time of Jacob’s trouble; but he shall be saved out of it.
And this Jeremiah 30:
8 For it shall come to pass in that day, saith the LORD of hosts, that I will break his yoke from off thy neck, and will burst thy bonds, and strangers shall no more serve themselves of him: 9 But they shall serve the LORD their God, and David their king, whom I will raise up unto them.
10 ¶ Therefore fear thou not, O my servant Jacob, saith the LORD; neither be dismayed, O Israel: for, lo, I will save thee from afar, and thy seed from the land of their captivity; and Jacob shall return, and shall be in rest, and be quiet, and none shall make him afraid. 11 For I am with thee, saith the LORD, to save thee: though I make a full end of all nations whither I have scattered thee, yet will I not make a full end of thee: but I will correct thee in measure, and will not leave thee altogether unpunished.
It is uncanny that the 1619 'project' here in US is relative to Jeremiah 16:19 in some strange way. And slavery here is close to 450 years like ancient Israel. There are other verses that uncannily fit with the teaching these folks have. My interest was based on Acts 15:15-18 which the brother I talk with doesn't agree that this applies. Seems that it applies and is from Amos 9:11-12
And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written, 16 After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up: 17 That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things. 18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
The brother, Ozias, tells me they look forward to the tribulation. Bible says some are going through that and surviving. This is maybe a bit much of a post.
-
1
-
1
- Show all
P
Hey Xavier, would you look at post #151 and see what you think. You are like an encyclopedia with all this info. Whenever I talk to the party I mention there he blows me away with his knowledge of scripture. But I am pretty ignorant in scripture, so it doesn't take much to blow me away. THnx
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Hi Persistent. Ok. So regarding: "Israel at first Advent was Roman province. 'captive'", I think the captive here is spiritual captivity i.e. to sin, unbelief etc. As it says in Isaiah 61, quoted in Luk 4:18, Christ came to set the captives free: “The Spirit of the LORD is upon Me, Because He has anointed Me To preach the gospel to the poor; He has sent Me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim liberty to the captives And recovery of sight to the blind, To set at liberty those who are oppressed". The Israelites thought this meant He would militarily defeat Caesar and the Roman Empire etc. But it rather meant He would defeat Satan, as He did on the Cross, and set us free from captivity to him. As the Pharisees say in John 8: "33They answered Him, “We are Abraham’s descendants, and have never been in bondage to anyone. How can You say, ‘You will be made free’?”34Jesus answered them, “Most assuredly, I say to you, whoever commits sin is a slave of sin. 35And a slave does not abide in the house forever, but a son abides forever. 36Therefore if the Son makes you free, you shall be free indeed."
As for" "It is uncanny that the 1619 'project' here in US is relative to Jeremiah 16:19 in some strange way. And slavery here is close to 450 years like ancient Israel." Well, 1619+450 years would be 2069 A.D., right? So, if that calculation is right, then we still have many decades before then.
I do agree God will deliver the Jews/Israelites from their captivity in which they were scattered. Also, at the time that song was written, Israel was scattered among the nations. Now, since 1948, as we know, they have been gathered back, though not yet come to Christ. One day, in a time known to God, they will. In Deuteronomy 4 too, God told them through Moses that He would never take His Mercy from them, nor forget His covenant with them. Paul says a similar thing in Romans: "30When you are in distress, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, when you turn to the Lord your God and obey His voice 31(for the Lord your God is a merciful God), He will not forsake you nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them."
I know there are some who focus a lot on the End Times and believe the world will most likely not survive 5 or 10 years from now. But imo, those things like dates and times etc are better left to God. He tells us no one knows the date except the Father in Heaven(Mark 13:32), that the Gospel must spread to the ends of the earth before the end can come (Mat 24:14), and that there will be a Great Multitude in Heaven, when finally the Great Commission is complete (Rev 7:9).
Personally, I think rather than worry about which date the End of Time will come, evangelistic initiatives like the "Billion Soul by 2030" are worth praying and preparing for. All of us, by winning a few souls for Christ, and praying and evangelizing for it, can participate. The end will come when it comes and we needn't worry too much about it. Personally, I think the status of the Great Commission means the end will not come in the next 10 years, since some 2 BN, per some estimates, are yet to hear the Gospel, and so Mat 24:14 requires. Let's see if that's true in 2032, but in the meanwhile, here is the link for the Billion Soul Harvest: "
VISION
Billions of people throughout the nations are desperate for the proclamation and demonstration of the Gospel through the Church.
Therefore, we will embrace and promote John 17:23 Great Unity and foster trusting relationships among the Global Church leaders from various regions/continents, and pursue Billion Soul Harvest together by 2030."
https://www.billionsoulharvest.net/ God will deliver Souls from Captivity, including Jews/Israelites etc, as we preach the Gospel and work to lead many to Him. When the exact date of Israel's deliverance spoken of in Romans 11 will come, we don't know. But one day, it will definitely come. And imo, as we keep evangelizing and praying, it will come faster.
Here is the passage in Romans 11: "
25For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.” 28Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32For God has [h]committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all."
God Bless.
As for" "It is uncanny that the 1619 'project' here in US is relative to Jeremiah 16:19 in some strange way. And slavery here is close to 450 years like ancient Israel." Well, 1619+450 years would be 2069 A.D., right? So, if that calculation is right, then we still have many decades before then.
I do agree God will deliver the Jews/Israelites from their captivity in which they were scattered. Also, at the time that song was written, Israel was scattered among the nations. Now, since 1948, as we know, they have been gathered back, though not yet come to Christ. One day, in a time known to God, they will. In Deuteronomy 4 too, God told them through Moses that He would never take His Mercy from them, nor forget His covenant with them. Paul says a similar thing in Romans: "30When you are in distress, and all these things come upon you in the latter days, when you turn to the Lord your God and obey His voice 31(for the Lord your God is a merciful God), He will not forsake you nor destroy you, nor forget the covenant of your fathers which He swore to them."
I know there are some who focus a lot on the End Times and believe the world will most likely not survive 5 or 10 years from now. But imo, those things like dates and times etc are better left to God. He tells us no one knows the date except the Father in Heaven(Mark 13:32), that the Gospel must spread to the ends of the earth before the end can come (Mat 24:14), and that there will be a Great Multitude in Heaven, when finally the Great Commission is complete (Rev 7:9).
Personally, I think rather than worry about which date the End of Time will come, evangelistic initiatives like the "Billion Soul by 2030" are worth praying and preparing for. All of us, by winning a few souls for Christ, and praying and evangelizing for it, can participate. The end will come when it comes and we needn't worry too much about it. Personally, I think the status of the Great Commission means the end will not come in the next 10 years, since some 2 BN, per some estimates, are yet to hear the Gospel, and so Mat 24:14 requires. Let's see if that's true in 2032, but in the meanwhile, here is the link for the Billion Soul Harvest: "
VISION
Billions of people throughout the nations are desperate for the proclamation and demonstration of the Gospel through the Church.
Therefore, we will embrace and promote John 17:23 Great Unity and foster trusting relationships among the Global Church leaders from various regions/continents, and pursue Billion Soul Harvest together by 2030."
https://www.billionsoulharvest.net/ God will deliver Souls from Captivity, including Jews/Israelites etc, as we preach the Gospel and work to lead many to Him. When the exact date of Israel's deliverance spoken of in Romans 11 will come, we don't know. But one day, it will definitely come. And imo, as we keep evangelizing and praying, it will come faster.
Here is the passage in Romans 11: "
25For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own [f]opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be [g]saved, as it is written:
“The Deliverer will come out of Zion, And He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob; 27For this is My covenant with them, When I take away their sins.” 28Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. 29For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, 31even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. 32For God has [h]committed them all to disobedience, that He might have mercy on all."
God Bless.
-
1
- Show all
P
Thnx Xavier, Didn't mean to give the impression that my 'concern' is with the 2nd Advent. And as I was a bit hurried in my post and am now going to rest but want to post a reply and also found interesting analysis of Zechariah by McCaul at Vine of David where McCaul analyzes RaDaK, Kimchi, and this was a person I mentioned to brother Ozias which he dismissed but my finding that Kimchi was subsidized by Yahya the Negro was very piquing.
I should not have mentioned 1619 as this may have prejudiced your outlook. And only mentioned it as referring to same or approximate date of slave importation to US. IMO great commission, end times not significant on my calendar. But according to Spurgeons' sermons, soul 'saving' is duty of Christians. I try. Will post later.
I should not have mentioned 1619 as this may have prejudiced your outlook. And only mentioned it as referring to same or approximate date of slave importation to US. IMO great commission, end times not significant on my calendar. But according to Spurgeons' sermons, soul 'saving' is duty of Christians. I try. Will post later.
Ok. Since you mentioned Spurgeon, interestingly, he declared in a sermon that he believes more than 50% of the human race will be saved. "I do abhor from my heart that continual whining of some men about their own little church as the “remnant”—the “few that are to be saved.” They are always dwelling upon strait gates and narrow ways, and upon what they conceive to be a truth, that but few shall enter heaven. . . . I believe there will be more in heaven than in hell . . . because Christ, in everything, is to “have the pre-eminence” (Col. 1:18) and I cannot conceive how he could have the pre-eminence if there are to be more in the dominions of Satan than in paradise. Moreover, it is said [Rev 7:9] there is to be a multitude that no man can number in heaven; I have never read that there is to be a multitude that no man can number in hell." https://www.thegospelcoalition.org/article/people-saved/ I think we discussed that in an earlier thread.
Many find that difficult to believe as the total number of professing Christians in the world is only around 32-33%, so how can 50+% go to Heaven? I think it is because the Great Commission is far from complete and thus we quite possible have 1 or 2 decades left, if not longer. Now, the total population of the world in 1900, around the time Spurgeon died, was 2 BN. The Christian population, around 660 MN, roughly the same 33% as today. Today, world population just crossed 8 BN this year. Christian population, around 2.5 BN. So some 5.5 BN are non-Christians and that continues sadly to rapidly expand.
Imo, Christmas videos etc can be a way of reaching multitudes. Hence, why I mentioned that 40 MN people saw that Silent Night Carol and thus would have sang of Christ as Lord through it. Similarly, those roughly 10 MN who watched Andrea Bocelli sing that other Carol, which also confessed Christ as Lord. Imo, mass media can play a great role in evangelization.
But ok, I will wait for you to explain further. Don't really know the historical context of what you mean when you say: "Kimchi was subsidized by Yahya" and so we'll discuss further after you clarify that. God Bless.
Many find that difficult to believe as the total number of professing Christians in the world is only around 32-33%, so how can 50+% go to Heaven? I think it is because the Great Commission is far from complete and thus we quite possible have 1 or 2 decades left, if not longer. Now, the total population of the world in 1900, around the time Spurgeon died, was 2 BN. The Christian population, around 660 MN, roughly the same 33% as today. Today, world population just crossed 8 BN this year. Christian population, around 2.5 BN. So some 5.5 BN are non-Christians and that continues sadly to rapidly expand.
Imo, Christmas videos etc can be a way of reaching multitudes. Hence, why I mentioned that 40 MN people saw that Silent Night Carol and thus would have sang of Christ as Lord through it. Similarly, those roughly 10 MN who watched Andrea Bocelli sing that other Carol, which also confessed Christ as Lord. Imo, mass media can play a great role in evangelization.
But ok, I will wait for you to explain further. Don't really know the historical context of what you mean when you say: "Kimchi was subsidized by Yahya" and so we'll discuss further after you clarify that. God Bless.
-
1
- Show all
P
Hey Xavier, your sentiments on this post may very well be correct. Seems that trying to determine any number of saved is not Biblical. My view on this would is based on the OT prohibition on Israel regarding census taking. Plus, in the NT Jesus says He came not to judge, and it seems that judgement for all who have ever lived is to be by Jesus' directive when He returns.
My curiosity is piqued by my having finally accepted Christ as my Savior circa May 25, 2021. Could have been 26 May 2021. At that time, I more earnestly began to pursue Heavenly things. But even prior to that I was taking an interest in religion. Started watching Melissa Scott as I was aware of her deceased husbands preaching.
Progressed to looking for preachers on the web and came across Mike Hoggard in Festus, Mo., and after some time and then conversing with him I moved on and decided to call House of Jacob (HoJ) here in Chicago and was put in touch with brother Ozias and we have maintained a brotherly relationship by phone. He is very near me as is the place of House of Jacob's place of worship. Quite certain HoJ is fairly small group at this time with some affiliation to Israel of God. Israel of God may be fairly extensive but independent.
There may be other similar groups like Hebrew Roots. HoJ follows OT teachings but accept Christ as Savior. I probably contacted HoJ during fall of 2021 but do not recall exact motivation for this. At that time I may have still the thought that Amish were the only Christians. So, your post regarding the 'narrow path' is possibly some widespread deception. Anecdotally, a neighbor commented to me that she thought to be a Christian would necessitate leaving all behind and living in the woods. I heard this same sentiment at an AA meeting in Fullerton, Ca., the year 1989.
Now, the Yahya family of Portugal lived contemporaneously with Kimchi who was a Hebrew Bible scholar and whose work was used as a reference in the King James Bible translation. The Yahya family name is possibly well known today and at the time of Kimchi were wealthy, prominent and had ties with secular and religious leaders. The people at HoJ are King James only oriented. When I try to discuss this matter with my brother Ozias we agree to disagree. I have told him, either he is going to convert me or I him. That they rely solely on the KJV is now even more reason for me to be suspicious of their understanding at this time. However, brother Ozias' sincerity is admirable.
When your post noted Vine of David and I opened the work of McCaul as the third piece and see he finds fault with Kimchi's work my senses were piqued. I intend to present some of this to brother Ozias but need to study it in more depth. Now I am thanks to your post, possibly able to present brother Ozias with reason to question the validity of KJ only. Another person in my pursuits of these past years to present this to is Mike Hoggard as mentioned earlier.
My fixation on Acts 15:15-18 still remains. It seems those verses are significant and even if HoJ were to abandon their position as KJ only, they would not necessarily relent on their claim of being Israelites. If you are familiar with Beta Israel these may be so linked. Brother Ozias says no to this idea and claims that most if not all in the country of Israel today are in fact heritage of Edom. There are some scripture verses which he points out to support this. I need to pay closer attention. Finally, I intend to post you again soon regarding billions by 2030. If you don't find this post interesting hopefully it amuses you. Excuse my choppy way of writing.
My curiosity is piqued by my having finally accepted Christ as my Savior circa May 25, 2021. Could have been 26 May 2021. At that time, I more earnestly began to pursue Heavenly things. But even prior to that I was taking an interest in religion. Started watching Melissa Scott as I was aware of her deceased husbands preaching.
Progressed to looking for preachers on the web and came across Mike Hoggard in Festus, Mo., and after some time and then conversing with him I moved on and decided to call House of Jacob (HoJ) here in Chicago and was put in touch with brother Ozias and we have maintained a brotherly relationship by phone. He is very near me as is the place of House of Jacob's place of worship. Quite certain HoJ is fairly small group at this time with some affiliation to Israel of God. Israel of God may be fairly extensive but independent.
There may be other similar groups like Hebrew Roots. HoJ follows OT teachings but accept Christ as Savior. I probably contacted HoJ during fall of 2021 but do not recall exact motivation for this. At that time I may have still the thought that Amish were the only Christians. So, your post regarding the 'narrow path' is possibly some widespread deception. Anecdotally, a neighbor commented to me that she thought to be a Christian would necessitate leaving all behind and living in the woods. I heard this same sentiment at an AA meeting in Fullerton, Ca., the year 1989.
Now, the Yahya family of Portugal lived contemporaneously with Kimchi who was a Hebrew Bible scholar and whose work was used as a reference in the King James Bible translation. The Yahya family name is possibly well known today and at the time of Kimchi were wealthy, prominent and had ties with secular and religious leaders. The people at HoJ are King James only oriented. When I try to discuss this matter with my brother Ozias we agree to disagree. I have told him, either he is going to convert me or I him. That they rely solely on the KJV is now even more reason for me to be suspicious of their understanding at this time. However, brother Ozias' sincerity is admirable.
When your post noted Vine of David and I opened the work of McCaul as the third piece and see he finds fault with Kimchi's work my senses were piqued. I intend to present some of this to brother Ozias but need to study it in more depth. Now I am thanks to your post, possibly able to present brother Ozias with reason to question the validity of KJ only. Another person in my pursuits of these past years to present this to is Mike Hoggard as mentioned earlier.
My fixation on Acts 15:15-18 still remains. It seems those verses are significant and even if HoJ were to abandon their position as KJ only, they would not necessarily relent on their claim of being Israelites. If you are familiar with Beta Israel these may be so linked. Brother Ozias says no to this idea and claims that most if not all in the country of Israel today are in fact heritage of Edom. There are some scripture verses which he points out to support this. I need to pay closer attention. Finally, I intend to post you again soon regarding billions by 2030. If you don't find this post interesting hopefully it amuses you. Excuse my choppy way of writing.
-
1
- Show all