Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.

  • Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.

    If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!

    To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,885
5,630
113
Spiritual hearing and physical/human hearing are different kinds of hearing. Spiritual hearing is specifically and solely given by God with salvation. All people do not receive this - it is not human or physical hearing. The hearing of the above verse is spiritual.

[Jhn 8:43 KJV] 43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.

[Mat 13:16 KJV] 16 But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear.
“Spiritual hearing and physical/human hearing are different kinds of hearing. Spiritual hearing is specifically and solely given by God with salvation.”

yes I agree with that. That’s given when we hear ( accept and acknolwedge as truth ) the gospel of the kingdom


“All people do not receive this - it is not human or physical hearing. The hearing of the above verse is spiritual.”

“ spiritual “

God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.”
‭‭John‬ ‭4:24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:63‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

You receive the spirit when you accept the gospel everyone every creature has the choice to hear it or reject it You have to hear the word of God in order to hear the spiritual things

when you hear accept as truth the gospel this happens

“and be renewed in the spirit of your mind;”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:23‬ ‭KJV‬‬

a Jesus word is there to correct what we thought we knew about him ourselves and the world. If we aren’t willing to hear it we arent going to receive it
 

rogerg

Well-known member
Jul 13, 2021
3,640
564
113
ou receive the spirit when you accept the gospel everyone every creature has the choice to hear it or reject it You have to hear the word of God in order to hear the spiritual things

when you hear accept as truth the gospel this happens
No, they didn't have a choice to hear. That was the whole point - first, they had to become saved and from that, they hear. As Jesus tells them. they "cannot hear my word". Yes, they physically, heard Him speak, but could not hear Him spiritually because it had not been given to them. Notice the "cannot" below. So, to receive salvation was solely in God's hands, not theirs.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,885
5,630
113
No, they didn't have a choice to hear. That was the whole point - first, they had to become saved and from that, they hear. As Jesus tells them. they "cannot hear my word". Yes, they physically, heard Him speak, but could not hear Him spiritually because it had not been given to them. Notice the "cannot" below. So, to receive salvation was solely in God's hands, not theirs.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
“No, they didn't have a choice to hear.”

your quoting specifically of the group of Israelites not people in general they couldn’t hear because God made them deaf and blind

“And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Isaiah the prophet unto our fathers, saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; And seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes have they closed; Lest they should see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should be converted, And I should heal them.

Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:25-28, 30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

brother the devils Most effective lie to man is that we can’t choose to accept what god said

airs like convincing a soldier in a war who’s equipped with all he needs to fight and win the battle , but you convince them “ you don’t have a choice to hold up your shield of faith or stroke a blow upon the enemy with the sword you’ve been given

If Satan can convince us we have no choice we’re never going to make the choice to hear and follow the lord

a there’s a reason the gospel has to be witnessed all Over the world

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when you hear that you are being given a choice everyone won’t believe it , but it’s not because they are unable it’s because they don’t find the value in it they don’t accept it as truth that leaves them without a choice simply because they believe I don’t have a choice , I can’t ,

everyone wont believe everyone gets to hear it because that’s what gives the choice of salvation to hear the gospel , again some aren’t going to believe they choose the world , another religion they heard , whatever belief they have chosen to grab onto

because the gospel is preached all
Men have a choice to make but we never ever will if we think we don’t have a choice and can’t choose

it’s a strange way to see God as of it’s his fault when someone ends up denying what he said , and when say a killer kills someone it’s not true that they had no choice they did that by thier own Will and will have to answer for what they did not what God forced then to do against thier will

I’m not a Calvinist because I would never worship a God that causes man to do evil without a choice and then punished those men because he made them and gave no choice to them.

the God I worship has saved me from slavery and given me a choice each day to choose what to do whether good or bad and he’s told me what will result and said believe me and live
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
The hearing of the above verse is spiritual.
Yes, it is.

Spiritual hearing is specifically and solely given by God with salvation.
That is the error of Calvinism. They put salvation before hearing. This is not the Gospel. This is completely man-made. God does the calling. He calls unregenerate men to repentance.

The call has gone out to all. Spiritual response is specifically and solely unregenerate man's part and responsibility.

Isaiah 40:21
“Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?”

Isaiah 45:22
“Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.”

Men are not preselected to go to heaven or hell. Salvation is available to all. That is why Jesus gave us the great commission to go out to all.

Mark 16:15
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”

Luke 10:2
“Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.”
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
Amen. Some Church history:

Calvinism came in during the time of the protestant reformation and virtually destroyed evangelism in many sectors. They said, "Why preach to the lost if people where already preselected for heaven or hell anyway?" The Calvinists turned a blind eye to the Great Commision set forth by Jesus.

Fortunately, the time of the Great Awakening arrived, and great missionary outreach and evangelism followed. The Church finally began fulfilling the Great Commision again and even the Baptist (who still hold Calvinist doctrine) got in on it.

Calvinism is a manmade doctrine that is now protected by modern liberalism that critiques and selects from the Bible rather than simply taking it as God's inspired word and reverently obeying it.

If you are seeking the truth, then let it be known that Christ died for all... and that means you. He is knocking at you hearts door right now.

John 3:16
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.”

Revelation 3:20
“Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.”

What I understand about church history is that back in the early stages of it, is that two of the elders of the church got into a dispute about adding things, other than, singing, praying and preaching, that would attract more of the population to join the church.

The elder that was concerned about increasing the membership left the church, and started his own congregation, taking a large number of the membership with him.

They increased to such a larger number, that the government of Rome became concerned, and incorporated them into their government, and became known as the Roman Catholic church.

The RCC tried to burn all of the spiritual writings, and began arresting, and killing the original church members, causing them to go underground with assembling themselves together to worship God. Saul/Paul was participating in the persecuting of the church, when he was converted on the road to Damascus.

John Calvin was never a member of the original church. The visible, original, church still, to this day, remains as a few, known as the remnant of the house of Israel.

You cannot throw all of the worlds into the same basket. There is a world that God loves, and chastens, and there is a world that God hates, and leaves them to their own destruction.

God's sheep are the only ones that hear his voice, (the house of Israel), and most of them, God has blinded to see the truth.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
“No, they didn't have a choice to hear.”

your quoting specifically of the group of Israelites not people in general they couldn’t hear because God made them deaf and blind

“And when they agreed not among themselves, they departed, after that Paul had spoken one word, Well spake the Holy Ghost by Isaiah the prophet unto our fathers, saying, Go unto this people, and say, Hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; And seeing ye shall see, and not perceive: For the heart of this people is waxed gross, And their ears are dull of hearing, And their eyes have they closed; Lest they should see with their eyes, And hear with their ears, And understand with their heart, And should be converted, And I should heal them.

Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

And Paul dwelt two whole years in his own hired house, and received all that came in unto him, preaching the kingdom of God, and teaching those things which concern the Lord Jesus Christ, with all confidence, no man forbidding him.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭28:25-28, 30-31‬ ‭KJV‬‬

brother the devils Most effective lie to man is that we can’t choose to accept what god said

airs like convincing a soldier in a war who’s equipped with all he needs to fight and win the battle , but you convince them “ you don’t have a choice to hold up your shield of faith or stroke a blow upon the enemy with the sword you’ve been given

If Satan can convince us we have no choice we’re never going to make the choice to hear and follow the lord

a there’s a reason the gospel has to be witnessed all Over the world

“And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:14‬ ‭

“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved;

but he that believeth not shall be damned.”
‭‭Mark‬ ‭16:15-16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when you hear that you are being given a choice everyone won’t believe it , but it’s not because they are unable it’s because they don’t find the value in it they don’t accept it as truth that leaves them without a choice simply because they believe I don’t have a choice , I can’t ,

everyone wont believe everyone gets to hear it because that’s what gives the choice of salvation to hear the gospel , again some aren’t going to believe they choose the world , another religion they heard , whatever belief they have chosen to grab onto

because the gospel is preached all
Men have a choice to make but we never ever will if we think we don’t have a choice and can’t choose

it’s a strange way to see God as of it’s his fault when someone ends up denying what he said , and when say a killer kills someone it’s not true that they had no choice they did that by thier own Will and will have to answer for what they did not what God forced then to do against thier will

I’m not a Calvinist because I would never worship a God that causes man to do evil without a choice and then punished those men because he made them and gave no choice to them.

the God I worship has saved me from slavery and given me a choice each day to choose what to do whether good or bad and he’s told me what will result and said believe me and live

The house of Israel, which is Jacob, as God changed his name to be called Israel (Gen 32:28), turned away from God, and God blinded their eyes that they could not see the truths contained in the scriptures, but the scriptures inform us that all of the house of Israel/Jacob, which is the invisible church, (Ezk 10:10) will be saved eternally.

The remnant of the house of Israel, which is the visible church, who have been revealed, by the revelation of the Holy Spirit, the truths contained in the scriptures, will always be a witness to the truth of the doctrine of Christ. (Zeph 3:11-13)
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
Yes, it is.



That is the error of Calvinism. They put salvation before hearing. This is not the Gospel. This is completely man-made. God does the calling. He calls unregenerate men to repentance.

The call has gone out to all. Spiritual response is specifically and solely unregenerate man's part and responsibility.

Isaiah 40:21
“Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?”

Isaiah 45:22
“Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.”

Men are not preselected to go to heaven or hell. Salvation is available to all. That is why Jesus gave us the great commission to go out to all.

Mark 16:15
“And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.”

Luke 10:2
“Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.”

Salvation=deliverance, saved=deliver, save=deliver, according to Greek translation. There is a, one time, eternal deliverance
And there are many deliverances that the child of God receives as he sojourns here on earth. If you fail to rightly divide the salvation scriptures, they will tend to teach eternal salvation, by our good works.


Eternal deliverance was accomplished on the cross, for all of those that God gave to Jesus, (not all mankind) to redeem them from their sins, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
Isaiah 40:21
“Have ye not known? have ye not heard? hath it not been told you from the beginning? have ye not understood from the foundations of the earth?”

Verse 40:9 - God is instructing Zion (God's people) to say unto Judah (God's disobedient children) that they should not be making graven images of him to worship. Along with verse 21, you might consider verses 27 & 28.

The inspired scriptures are written to the children of God, as instructions for them to live their lives by, as they sojourn here on earth, they are not directed to the unregenerate, as to how to get delivered eternally.. If the salvation (deliverance) scriptures are rightly divided, they will reveal this truth.
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,885
5,630
113
The house of Israel, which is Jacob, as God changed his name to be called Israel (Gen 32:28), turned away from God, and God blinded their eyes that they could not see the truths contained in the scriptures, but the scriptures inform us that all of the house of Israel/Jacob, which is the invisible church, (Ezk 10:10) will be saved eternally.

The remnant of the house of Israel, which is the visible church, who have been revealed, by the revelation of the Holy Spirit, the truths contained in the scriptures, will always be a witness to the truth of the doctrine of Christ. (Zeph 3:11-13)
“turned away from God, and God blinded their eyes that they could not see the truths contained in the scriptures,”

right they turned away from him , and he repeatedly tried to call them back and eventually he blinded thier minds as a result of their choices for hundreds of years

these scriptures you mean ?

I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; a people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face;

that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day. Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom, your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.

Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all. And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number. Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed: behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit. And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

that he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:2-9, 11-17‬ ‭

In other words

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:6, 8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

flesh and blood doesn’t make someone an Israelite and hier of Gods promises not a child of Abraham this does


“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

yes all Israel will Be saved all who reject Jesus Christ whether thier flesh is of jacobs or gentile will be lost. It doesn’t make any difference if my flesh is israelite or gentile it’s irrelevant can’t save or condemn me .

There was a remnant of Israel that believed and were born again of Abraham’s seed Jesus Christ , and there are gentiles also who accept the seed of Abraham Jesus Christ that’s Gods israel the flesh failed long ago

thats Israel all who are born of Gods spirit through Christ Jesus , being born of jacobs flesh doesn’t save anyone who rejects Jesus , and being born of gentile flesh doesn’t disqualify anyone who believes in Jesus and partakes of his flesh and blood which purchased our inheritance

There was a flesh line of Jacob of whom a remnant would be spared and the remnant would be sent into the nations carrying the gospel which is where Abraham’s children are born Of Christ Jesus the seed of Abraham

“The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Isaac was a prophetic pattern of Christ the son born because God promised he would be even though it wasn’t possible by Abraham and sarias flesh

jacob isn’t Abraham’s seed he’s abrams flesh seed , Jesus is Abraham’s spiritual seed of promise and hier of salvation

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So then israel is those who are born again in Christ , where Abraham himself , or a Christian today who’s flesh is of African descent it doesn’t make any difference to God it won’t condemn or save them just as it didn’t save the Israelites who rejected Jesus

any israelite who accepts the gospel and is baptized into Christ or any gentile who accepts the gospel and is baptized into Christ that’s Gods people , his elect , his children , the hiers of the promise made to Abraham are identified by the gospel and how they receive or reject it

An Israelite of the flesh has to repent and believe the gospel like anyone of they don’t there’s no salvstion to be had same with anyone else we have to repent and accept the gospel
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
Luke 10:2
“Therefore said he unto them, The harvest truly is great, but the labourers are few: pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he would send forth labourers into his harvest.”

Jesus instructed his apostles to go and preach to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, who are God's children, that have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
 
Jun 20, 2022
6,460
1,330
113
Just lovely how Paul and others break down the condition of the Yiddish People's of Yeshuas day and then some readers try desperately to apply that to all human beings.

Doctrines of MEN = seeds of Satan!
 

oyster67

Senior Member
May 24, 2014
11,887
8,705
113
You cannot throw all of the worlds into the same basket.
We are talking about the planet Earth. That is the only basket that we are concerned about. That is the "basket" where Jesus manifested as a man and laid down His life for all mankind.

They increased to such a larger number, that the government of Rome became concerned, and incorporated them into their government, and became known as the Roman Catholic church.
Yes, Constantine did institute a state church that evolved into RCC. The sad truth is that the RCC, despite it's ruthless methods, exhibited much more zeal in spreading Christianity than the Calvinist reformers ever would.

The visible, original, church still, to this day, remains as a few, known as the remnant of the house of Israel.
Replacement Theology?
The Church will be raptured. The Jewish Remnant will come to a saving knowledge of Jesus during the 7-Year Tribulation.

God's sheep are the only ones that hear his voice, (the house of Israel)
We must differentiate between physical Israel and spiritual Israel.

(the house of Israel), and most of them, God has blinded to see the truth.
...until the last days:

Zechariah 12
9 And it shall come to pass in that day, that I will seek to destroy all the nations that come against Jerusalem.
10 And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn.
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,752
8,262
113
Not according to 1 Cor 2:14,.
Can't argue with that. Denying the doctrine of election is folly.

Mat 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Luk 10:22
All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.
 
Jun 20, 2022
6,460
1,330
113
Can't argue with that. Denying the doctrine of election is folly.

Mat 11:27
All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him.

Luk 10:22
All things are delivered to me of my Father: and no man knoweth who the Son is, but the Father; and who the Father is, but the Son, and he to whom the Son will reveal him.

Show me one person the Son didn't reveal to the Father or vice versa?
 

Pilgrimshope

Well-known member
Sep 2, 2020
13,885
5,630
113
No, they didn't have a choice to hear. That was the whole point - first, they had to become saved and from that, they hear. As Jesus tells them. they "cannot hear my word". Yes, they physically, heard Him speak, but could not hear Him spiritually because it had not been given to them. Notice the "cannot" below. So, to receive salvation was solely in God's hands, not theirs.

43 Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word.
“The kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding: and they would not come. Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage. But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise: and the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them. But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city. Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭22:2-8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

we’re they invited which offered them the choice to come ? Or forced to respond to the invite as they did ?

“kingdom of heaven is like unto a certain king, which made a marriage for his son, and sent forth his servants to call them that were bidden to the wedding:”

they were called by the king to come they refuse but he sends more notices that they are invited come it’s ready he said

“and they would not come.

Again, he sent forth other servants, saying, Tell them which are bidden, Behold, I have prepared my dinner: my oxen and my fatlings are killed, and all things are ready: come unto the marriage.

But they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise:( are they being forced not to come ? Or anre they choosing other things instead even though he’s calling them to come ?)

and the remnant took his servants, and entreated them spitefully, and slew them.”

Did he the king make them reject his invite and kill his messengers sent to invite them ?? So he could do this to them ?

“But when the king heard thereof, he was wroth: and he sent forth his armies, and destroyed those murderers, and burned up their city.


Then saith he to his servants, The wedding is ready, but they which were bidden were not worthy.”

Who is at fault for thier terrible end ? Who offered something freely and made it clear and who chose not to attend the invite ? Who chose to reject it and kill the messengers ? Are they destroyed because they had no choice ? Or because they didn’t find the invite to the wedding as worthy of their time and attention as thier own desires ?

“they made light of it, and went their ways, one to his farm, another to his merchandise”

God doesn’t force us into the kingdom or force us out of the kingdom he’s freely offered it to anyone who is willing to accept what he saying and not pretend they don’t have a choice when they hear it

He doesn’t punish people unjustly , all wrath is because of what target have done and what they continue choosing freely after he’s sent the invite into th e kingdom out among them all

as one will hear it and believe and attend because he hears and believes it and another will hear it and say “ I’d like to but I’m busy I have other things to do “

It’s a choice it was a choice in Eden to believe God or the serpent they believed the serpent and received what God warned them about. It was a choice under the law they chose to break the covenant refuse his word and so they received all the many curses written in the law of Moses

Its still a choice one makes freely when you hear the gospel we can attend the wedding we’re invited to but it’s going to require us choose the better part
 

cv5

Well-known member
Nov 20, 2018
22,752
8,262
113
The visible, original, church still, to this day, remains as a few, known as the remnant of the house of Israel.
No. Those are the sons of Jacob. Never, EVER gentile believers. Or gentile unbelievers for that matter. The sharp distinction is everywhere in the OT and NT.

Gal 2:12
For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.

Gal 2:13
And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

Gal 2:14
But when I saw that they walked not uprightly according to the truth of the gospel, I said unto Peter before them all, If thou, being a Jew, livest after the manner of Gentiles, and not as do the Jews, why compellest thou the Gentiles to live as do the Jews?

Gal 2:15
We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles,
 

ForestGreenCook

Well-known member
Jul 8, 2018
8,441
1,213
113
“turned away from God, and God blinded their eyes that they could not see the truths contained in the scriptures,”

right they turned away from him , and he repeatedly tried to call them back and eventually he blinded thier minds as a result of their choices for hundreds of years

these scriptures you mean ?

I have spread out my hands all the day unto a rebellious people, which walketh in a way that was not good, after their own thoughts; a people that provoketh me to anger continually to my face;

that sacrificeth in gardens, and burneth incense upon altars of brick; which remain among the graves, and lodge in the monuments, which eat swine's flesh, and broth of abominable things is in their vessels; which say, Stand by thyself, come not near to me; for I am holier than thou. These are a smoke in my nose, a fire that burneth all the day. Behold, it is written before me: I will not keep silence, but will recompense, even recompense into their bosom, your iniquities, and the iniquities of your fathers together, saith the LORD, which have burned incense upon the mountains, and blasphemed me upon the hills: therefore will I measure their former work into their bosom.

Thus saith the LORD, As the new wine is found in the cluster, and one saith, Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it: so will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all. And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there.

But ye are they that forsake the LORD, that forget my holy mountain, that prepare a table for that troop, and that furnish the drink offering unto that number. Therefore will I number you to the sword, and ye shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, ye did not answer; when I spake, ye did not hear; but did evil before mine eyes, and did choose that wherein I delighted not.

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD, Behold, my servants shall eat, but ye shall be hungry: behold, my servants shall drink, but ye shall be thirsty: behold, my servants shall rejoice, but ye shall be ashamed: behold, my servants shall sing for joy of heart, but ye shall cry for sorrow of heart, and shall howl for vexation of spirit. And ye shall leave your name for a curse unto my chosen: for the Lord GOD shall slay thee, and call his servants by another name:

that he who blesseth himself in the earth shall bless himself in the God of truth; and he that sweareth in the earth shall swear by the God of truth; because the former troubles are forgotten, and because they are hid from mine eyes. For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭65:2-9, 11-17‬ ‭

In other words

Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel: That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭9:6, 8‬ ‭KJV‬‬

flesh and blood doesn’t make someone an Israelite and hier of Gods promises not a child of Abraham this does


“For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:27-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

yes all Israel will Be saved all who reject Jesus Christ whether thier flesh is of jacobs or gentile will be lost. It doesn’t make any difference if my flesh is israelite or gentile it’s irrelevant can’t save or condemn me .

There was a remnant of Israel that believed and were born again of Abraham’s seed Jesus Christ , and there are gentiles also who accept the seed of Abraham Jesus Christ that’s Gods israel the flesh failed long ago

thats Israel all who are born of Gods spirit through Christ Jesus , being born of jacobs flesh doesn’t save anyone who rejects Jesus , and being born of gentile flesh doesn’t disqualify anyone who believes in Jesus and partakes of his flesh and blood which purchased our inheritance

There was a flesh line of Jacob of whom a remnant would be spared and the remnant would be sent into the nations carrying the gospel which is where Abraham’s children are born Of Christ Jesus the seed of Abraham

“The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭1:1‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Isaac was a prophetic pattern of Christ the son born because God promised he would be even though it wasn’t possible by Abraham and sarias flesh

jacob isn’t Abraham’s seed he’s abrams flesh seed , Jesus is Abraham’s spiritual seed of promise and hier of salvation

Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

So then israel is those who are born again in Christ , where Abraham himself , or a Christian today who’s flesh is of African descent it doesn’t make any difference to God it won’t condemn or save them just as it didn’t save the Israelites who rejected Jesus

any israelite who accepts the gospel and is baptized into Christ or any gentile who accepts the gospel and is baptized into Christ that’s Gods people , his elect , his children , the hiers of the promise made to Abraham are identified by the gospel and how they receive or reject it

An Israelite of the flesh has to repent and believe the gospel like anyone of they don’t there’s no salvstion to be had same with anyone else we have to repent and accept the gospel

I see that you are a true believer in eternal deliverance earned by your good works, which is a false doctrine. You are accounted with The disobedient house of Israel/Jacob who have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.

All of God's elect, after they have been born again, do repent when they commit a sin, and do accept Jesus as their savior, and do worship God, as they best know how in your case.

Repenting, believing in the gospel, accepting Jesus as your savior, confessing your sins, praying, giving tithes, etc. None of of these works of mankind, is the cause of your eternal deliverance