Is it okay to teach your kids to pray to a dead saint?
- Thread starter presidente
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
The Romans, in order to satisfy their polytheistic populous after converting to the One God of the Bible, introduced praying to saints.
I think we forget that that all the heroes and gods of the Romans were not Disney films for kids: they defined central themes of their concepts of governance, law, commerce, religions, etc. So, when the Roman Empire converted to "Christian with one god", they had an entire population whose life had been defined by their polytheism. Big problem.
So, they introduced a "Christian heroes system" to replace the old "Roman heroes system". In the new system, "heroes and gods" were called "saints". And, for common needs, like money, crops, health, etc. they introduced "Patron Saints". See, the population was used to praying to certain gods for certain things... so, to appease the people, saints were then ascribed certain unique areas of helps. So one might pray to Matthew, the patron saint of banking for their business, or Rita of Casia for infertility problems, etc. The church also kept the tradition of collecting offerings when people sought the help of these saints. Their system was a great money-maker.
The Roman church never left its Roman roots, including polytheism.
But more than that, their doctrine of "saints" keeps the "regular" people diminished to a lower caste. This is the greatest sin of the Roman church, in my opinion. That's why they are so hung up on relics from antiquity: they do not believe the Spirit of God is actually in them... unless they're a "saint" of course.
I think we forget that that all the heroes and gods of the Romans were not Disney films for kids: they defined central themes of their concepts of governance, law, commerce, religions, etc. So, when the Roman Empire converted to "Christian with one god", they had an entire population whose life had been defined by their polytheism. Big problem.
So, they introduced a "Christian heroes system" to replace the old "Roman heroes system". In the new system, "heroes and gods" were called "saints". And, for common needs, like money, crops, health, etc. they introduced "Patron Saints". See, the population was used to praying to certain gods for certain things... so, to appease the people, saints were then ascribed certain unique areas of helps. So one might pray to Matthew, the patron saint of banking for their business, or Rita of Casia for infertility problems, etc. The church also kept the tradition of collecting offerings when people sought the help of these saints. Their system was a great money-maker.
The Roman church never left its Roman roots, including polytheism.
But more than that, their doctrine of "saints" keeps the "regular" people diminished to a lower caste. This is the greatest sin of the Roman church, in my opinion. That's why they are so hung up on relics from antiquity: they do not believe the Spirit of God is actually in them... unless they're a "saint" of course.
I always get laughs from the Romans. I assume it's a coping mechanism.
I'm sure most people slept through Western Civilization classes. But if you know Greek/Roman history and the history of the Roman church the posts that I write are very clear.
I'm sure most people slept through Western Civilization classes. But if you know Greek/Roman history and the history of the Roman church the posts that I write are very clear.
Your claims are plausible but come without citations. Can you provide any sources to support your claims?
I'm not in a position to get cited material presently but what was stated is consistent with the homeschooling materials I teach my children from.
The Roman Catholics did not introduce "praying to Saints" (more correctly, asking saints to intercede for them) out of the blue; this is mentioned in the Apocrypha. The Coptic, Greek and Russian Orthodox churches also accept the Apocrypha. The complete list of books in the Bible is not listed anywhere (remember only a few hundred years ago Martin Luther wanted to remove multiple books from the Bible including Revelations because they are "contradictory"), so what should be included in the canon isn't 100% certain.
Oh really? Where is it written in scripture?
Literally offers a book the early translators (like Jerome) rejected as canon.
Pope Leo I, in ~450, made the Apocrypha canon.
When Paul wrote "There is one mediator between God and man" he really meant it.
But my point was not about saints praying for others. It was about how the hero system of Rome was replaced by the hero system of saints by the Roman Church.
Not gonna lie but your interpretations make me literally laugh out loud.
You think that people dying for Christ are some sort of cartoon characters that Rome publishes on a monthly magazine.
Not gonna lie but your interpretations make me literally laugh out loud.
You think that people dying for Christ are some sort of cartoon characters that Rome publishes on a monthly magazine.
People die for many things every day. The Roman church authorized the many deaths of real saints.
34 Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, 35 that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar.
6I could see that the woman was drunk with the blood of the saints and witnesses for Jesus. And I was utterly amazed at the sight of her.
It's a broadly accepted historical fact. But here are some examples:
We see it in the slaughter of the Albigensians which was really the first Roman Catholic crusade intended to slay other Christians. [K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987, 29]The Albigensians...viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept Roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and dictates.
Then on the command of Pope Innocent III in 1209, Bezirs (today France) was destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims including Catholics refusing to turn over their neighbors and friends were up to 70,000. [H.Wollschlger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zrich 1973.179-181]
In Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands were slain and in subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232to search and destroy any who did not hold to the what the church dictated.
The Waldensians, and many others were exterminated, in the persecution of the Cathar of Southern Europe, northern Italy, it is estimated one million victims of the . [H.Wollschlger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zrich 1973.183]
The Spanish Inquisition killed untold numbers and the Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 executions.
John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, who was burned at the stake in 1415.
In the 15th century we find the Church launching a persecution against Hussites, with thousands slain. In 1538 pope Paul III declared a crusade against England who had left its domination and all English made as slaves of Church, but England being a island made that a bit difficult to implement. In the 1568, the Spanish Inquisition tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands and thousands were slain. In 1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987, 28-31]
In the Catholic 17th century 30 years' war against the Protestants, at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987.31-32] And its recorded in the Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany, roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller. [D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992, 191.]
Of course, none of this includes the killing of Jews and Arabs (many millions) by order of the Roman Church.
Anyone attempting to pray to a dead saint is actually trying to conduct a seance.. King Saul did the same when he contacted Samuel and God judged Saul for it the very next day Saul was killed in battle..
We Christians always have access directly to our Loving Father in Heaven, The LORD Jesus Christ.. We need no intermediary.. Yes God encouraged us to ask other Saints to pray for us,, But they where living Saints living with us in the here and now..
Don't be fooled by the false doctrines inspired by the catholic religion and her sisters..
We Christians always have access directly to our Loving Father in Heaven, The LORD Jesus Christ.. We need no intermediary.. Yes God encouraged us to ask other Saints to pray for us,, But they where living Saints living with us in the here and now..
Don't be fooled by the false doctrines inspired by the catholic religion and her sisters..
It sounds like you are conflating issues.
We can talk doctrine or we can talk about the parties that invigilated their interpretation of that doctrine.
The Christians of the crusades did nothing wrong.
Of course the Roman Church has its own interpretation. Aside from distancing themselves from certain popes, they pretty much hold the line on their authority to do whatever they wanto.
But we are to judge from a heavenly viewpoint. Once Christ appeared, God no longer counted men's sins against them. And nowhere, in the New Testament, did Christ ever kill or order the killing of anyone. Yet, the god of this world, seen in the Roman Church and in Islam, has ordered the slaughter of untold millions. This god always works through the religious systems. The first murder was a religious murder, after all.
This thread has gone far afield of presidente's original question: What kind of message do we send our children when we encourage them to pray to a dead man (St. Nicholas, or Santa, however you want it) for toys?
Thank you for steering this back.
Personally, I never taught my children to pray to fictional characters but what are the risks of families that do encourage children to pray to fictional characters?
Do the children grow up sad or depressed or what? And who encourages children to pray to fictional characters anyway?
It's the same thing... I don't care if people laugh at my post.. They will discover on the day of judgement the truth of the matter..
An important note to this is that there are two different contexts of prayer:
1) to petition for something (e.g. "St Anthony help me find this thing")
2) to direct a message (e.g. at a gravesite speaking from your heart toward a friend that has passed).