Is it okay to teach your kids to pray to a dead saint?

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

You missed a fourth possibility: The "saints" (those who believed in Christ in this life and have died, and are with Him in the afterlife) witness our lives and don't pray for us. There is no evidence in Scripture that they do.

Again, this only became an issue when the Deuterocanonical Books were removed in the 16th Century.

Forget about the canonical status of Maccabees for a minute. Are you really claiming this below verse does not say the Saints in Heaven pray for us. Jeremiah had departed long ago, yet he prayed for Judas Maccabeus in his battle to defend Israel from invaders: "2 Macc 15:
14 Onias said: "This is God's prophet Jeremiah, who loves the Jewish people and offers many prayers for us and for Jerusalem, the holy city."
15 Then Jeremiah stretched out his right hand and gave Judas a gold sword, saying as he did so,
16 "This holy sword is a gift from God. Take it and destroy your enemies."
17 The eloquent words that Judas spoke encouraged everyone to be brave, and inspired boys to fight like men. Their city, their religion, and their Temple were in danger. So the Jews made up their minds not to waste any time, but to make a daring attack against the enemy and bravely decide their fate in hand-to-hand combat.

Taken from: https://www.biblestudytools.com/gnta/2-maccabees/passage/?q=2-maccabees+15:14-24

And in the Gospel of Luke, which is indisputably canonical, the Rich Man asked Abraham: "Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus". What is that? It was a request for Abraham, a Saint, to grant something, which Abraham was able to, because he died righteous and faithful to God. How is it possible those powerful here on Earth in prayers will cease to be so once in Heaven? Or if you say, they don't care, I answer that, in that case, they would fail in charity. If I knew you were suffering, and you asked for my prayers, and I didn't pray, you would say I failed in charity. Yet, the Saints in Heaven love God and love us blamelessly and thus cannot fail in charity. Hence, if we ask, they will pray for us.

Who said anything about it being a "sin"? I didn't. You exalt people who have died and decry your fellow believers in this life. That's ignorant, foolish, and a mishandling of the relevant Scripture.

Please forgive me. It was not my intention to "decry" anyone. But yes, I do believe asking the prayers of the Saints in Heaven brings great blessings. The Bible says in that verse I quoted that the "spirits of the righteous" are "made perfect" in Heaven. In another verse, St. Paul says that, while on Earth, he was not yet made perfect: "Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect." That's Philippians 3:12. Hence, if St. Paul's prayers were powerful here on Earth, where he himself says he was not perfect yet - and God worked miracles through him, as Acts records - then he is even more powerful in prayers now in Heaven. That's what I was trying to convey, that the prayers of the Saints who worked miracles here on Earth in the Lord's Name, are even more powerful now in Heaven, since they are made perfect.

Hence, if it would be a blessing to have a miracle working pastor pray for us, so much more for St. Paul to pray for us.

You can pretend that praying to "dead" people is worthwhile, though Scripture doesn't support your pretense. I prefer to talk to God directly, and if I feel that additional prayer support is needed, I'll ask righteous men and women whom I know personally. That's what Scripture teaches. It doesn't teach anything about asking "dead" people to pray for you.

I have experienced many blessings from the prayers of the Saints. God loves His Saints and He hears their prayers now in Heaven just as He heard it while on Earth.

Wasn't God about to destroy Israel in the desert, and because of the prayers of Moses, that was averted? That shows how powerful the prayers of those close to God are. And none are closer than the Saints in Heaven, like Moses now is.

You're making leaps not supported by Scripture. The "righteous" to which those passages refer were righteous prior to their death, which in every case was when they offered prevailing prayers. There is absolutely no record in Scripture of intercession offered by a person who had died (Jesus aside!) making a whit of difference in anything in this life.

But Scripture says we are not made perfect before death, but are made perfect after it, as I quoted two verses above.

Irrelevant. Even the quote you provided doesn't support your assertion.

Which one? The one from Maccabees about the Prophet Jeremiah praying for Judas Maccabeus? or the one from Tobit about the Archangel Raphael praying for Tobit and his son?

This is Tobit 12:12, where St. Raphael the Archangel reveals himself to the two faithful Israelites, and where he informs them of his intercession for them before God: " 12 Tobit, when you and Sarah prayed to the Lord, I was the one who brought your prayers into his glorious presence. I did the same thing each time you buried the dead."

https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Tobit 12&version=GNT

God Bless.

 

[Dino246]

Forget about the canonical status of Maccabees for a minute. Are you really claiming this below verse does not say the Saints in Heaven pray for us. Jeremiah had departed long ago, yet he prayed for Judas Maccabeus in his battle to defend Israel from invaders: "2 Macc 15: ...

I'm not claiming anything about what it says. I simply don't believe it is Scripture, and therefore has no more bearing on what I believe than a fairy tale.

And in the Gospel of Luke, which is indisputably canonical, the Rich Man asked Abraham: "Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus". What is that? It was a request for Abraham, a Saint, to grant something, which Abraham was able to, because he died righteous and faithful to God. How is it possible those powerful here on Earth in prayers will cease to be so once in Heaven? Or if you say, they don't care, I answer that, in that case, they would fail in charity. If I knew you were suffering, and you asked for my prayers, and I didn't pray, you would say I failed in charity. Yet, the Saints in Heaven love God and love us blamelessly and thus cannot fail in charity. Hence, if we ask, they will pray for us.

Your conclusion is not supported by your assertions.

... Hence, if it would be a blessing to have a miracle working pastor pray for us, so much more for St. Paul to pray for us.

Which says nothing about whether Paul does continue to pray for us. Speculation is not Scripture.

I have experienced many blessings from the prayers of the Saints. God loves His Saints and He hears their prayers now in Heaven just as He heard it while on Earth.

You could only know that someone still on Earth had prayed for you. You could not know whether a saint in heaven had done so. Again, you're arguing on the basis of speculation.

Wasn't God about to destroy Israel in the desert, and because of the prayers of Moses, that was averted? That shows how powerful the prayers of those close to God are. And none are closer than the Saints in Heaven, like Moses now is.

Which says nothing at all about whether he continues to pray, nor about whether he would pray on our behalf if we were to ask.

Which one? The one from Maccabees about the Prophet Jeremiah praying for Judas Maccabeus? or the one from Tobit about the Archangel Raphael praying for Tobit and his son?

I'm not interested in arguments made from deuterocanonical books. They carry absolutely no weight with me.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Of course. Echos of wonder resound in the hearts of God's people. Echo away I say.

Well in that case remember how God called Abraham to look at the earth forst and then when he announced the promise of Abraham the father of many nations he called him to look into the heavens ?

abraham was looking up after that and not at the earth so the proof that God created that wonder you were talking about

“By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

( Abraham was walking and moving about never settling in the promised land because he was looking towards heaven for the city of God his true inheritance and promised land )

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

..But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:8-10, 13-14, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Abraham’s inheritance was and is in the heavenly kingdom from when God called him according to the seed of promise “ look now into the heavens and tell the stars “

and not according to the land of earth measures out to his flesh descendants
so we are called to the same that creates the wonders of the father in the hearts of his children by faith

“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above,

not on things on the earth.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭

god called then abroad and said to the children of Abraham ( all in Christ )”look up into the wonders of the stars count them and call them by name which hang in the heavens immortal for they are a promise of you in your promised land God has prepared for you and journey on as pilgrims on earth your home is above

 

[oyster67]

Is it okay to teach your kids to pray to a dead saint... like by writing a letter to one and asking for a bunch of toys.

Apparently, we need to revisit the definition of proper prayer. Prayer should include an element of reverence, worship, and humility. The only person who prays to God like children pray to Santa Clause is Joel Osteen.

 

[Cameron143]

Well in that case remember how God called Abraham to look at the earth forst and then when he announced the promise of Abraham the father of many nations he called him to look into the heavens ?

abraham was looking up after that and not at the earth so the proof that God created that wonder you were talking about

“By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: for he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

( Abraham was walking and moving about never settling in the promised land because he was looking towards heaven for the city of God his true inheritance and promised land )

These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

..But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:8-10, 13-14, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Abraham’s inheritance was and is in the heavenly kingdom from when God called him according to the seed of promise “ look now into the heavens and tell the stars “

and not according to the land of earth measures out to his flesh descendants
so we are called to the same that creates the wonders of the father in the hearts of his children by faith

“If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. Set your affection on things above,

not on things on the earth.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭3:1-2‬ ‭

god called then abroad and said to the children of Abraham ( all in Christ )”look up into the wonders of the stars count them and call them by name which hang in the heavens immortal for they are a promise of you in your promised land God has prepared for you and journey on as pilgrims on earth your home is above

I have a friend who can even reword the goofiest things I say to make them sound incredibly smart. You seem to have a similar gift. Your understanding far exceeds my insight.

 

[studentoftheword]

In my view praying to any Saith is slapping God the Son in the face -----there is not one thing that any Saith that has gone before us can do for us that a Jesus hasn't already done for us ------Jesus said IT IS FINISHED ===all has been accomplished -----the Saints are not Jesus ---and the Scripture clearly says were are to pray in Him Name ----not any Saints name or Mary's name ------or any other name

Anyone who preaches another Gospel is to be accursed ------says scripture ----Galatians 1:8

 

[Pilgrimshope]

I have a friend who can even reword the goofiest things I say to make them sound incredibly smart. You seem to have a similar gift. Your understanding far exceeds my insight.

brother I’m old that’s the only difference.

I’ve always been a fool but eventually I acknowledged it and started listening to scripture

what I was saying earlier when you spoke from the heart and we’re saying from the heart not your head (I could tell ) wisdom was coming out of your heart speaking of how a father restores and repairs faith and wonder just by being near to them laying next to them showing them I’m daddy trust me I’m with you , and aiming thier wonders to the stars and the possibilities of God beyond our understanding or comprehension

what I mean is the understanding came from you speaking from the heart I just heard scripture that confirms it

christianity requires open hearts towards one another and ears to hear

awhile in person I might say “ huh “ “ what ?” Sort of Loudly because my physical hearing is not what it used to be , I heard what you said and was just pointing to where th t faith in you had actually come from

i remember scripture but it doesn’t reflect my understanding at all but the living work of God in us to teach us in the heart things like what you said

God is a daddy just like you

 

[Cameron143]

brother I’m old that’s the only difference.

I’ve always been a fool but eventually I acknowledged it and started listening to scripture

what I was saying earlier when you spoke from the heart and we’re saying from the heart not your head (I could tell ) wisdom was coming out of your heart speaking of how a father restores and repairs faith and wonder just by being near to them laying next to them showing them I’m daddy trust me I’m with you , and aiming thier wonders to the stars and the possibilities of God beyond our understanding or comprehension

what I mean is the understanding came from you speaking from the heart I just heard scripture that confirms it

christianity requires open hearts towards one another and ears to hear

awhile in person I might say “ huh “ “ what ?” Sort of Loudly because my physical hearing is not what it used to be , I heard what you said and was just pointing to where th t faith in you had actually come from

i remember scripture but it doesn’t reflect my understanding at all but the living work of God in us to teach us in the heart things like what you said

God is a daddy just like you

Well said. God is continually manifesting grace upon grace to His children. We live so far below the high calling we have in Christ Jesus our Lord. But sometimes, in a word from a friend or a starry night, we find a glimpse of what will be one day when we see Him face to face.
Thanks for the reminder.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

Well said. God is continually manifesting grace upon grace to His children. We live so far below the high calling we have in Christ Jesus our Lord. But sometimes, in a word from a friend or a starry night, we find a glimpse of what will be one day when we see Him face to face.
Thanks for the reminder.

exactly brother exactly why I ramble on so much !!!

thanks for your patience and good spirit of brotherhood in our lord !!! Press on in the light that encompasses you and reflects to your children

 

[Cameron143]

You know what’s even better?

Praying FOR the dead !

https://www.saintjohnchurch.org/prayer-for-the-dead/

Ok. I did my homework.
And it did raise a number of questions in my mind. For instance, what do you believe the estate of one's soul to be after physical death? Conscious or unconscious?
Depending on the answer, I have other questions.

Also, just so you are aware, I don't view the Apocryphal books as scripture. I know that you do and that informs our views.
Also, the reference to Onesiphorus in 2nd Timothy could have been made of someone still living so I can't conclusively draw a conclusion either way based on this verse.

Phew...I hate homework.

 

[Eli1]

Ok. I did my homework.
And it did raise a number of questions in my mind. For instance, what do you believe the estate of one's soul to be after physical death? Conscious or unconscious?
Depending on the answer, I have other questions.

Also, just so you are aware, I don't view the Apocryphal books as scripture. I know that you do and that informs our views.
Also, the reference to Onesiphorus in 2nd Timothy could have been made of someone still living so I can't conclusively draw a conclusion either way based on this verse.

Phew...I hate homework.

I believe the soul is conscious.

 

[Cameron143]

I believe the soul is conscious.

Do you believe they are in God's presence?

 

[Eli1]

Do you believe they are in God's presence?

Yes.

 

[Cameron143]

Yes.

From my understanding about heaven, it is beyond what we can think or imagine. If this is so, what would their needs be and how would we even know what to ask for them?

 

[Eli1]

From my understanding about heaven, it is beyond what we can think or imagine. If this is so, what would their needs be and how would we even know what to ask for them?

No clue how this part works.
‘’But according to the orthodox tradition we think of the dead as passing through on the other side and they are still alive consciously.
This belief is confirmed by apparitions throughout history of dead people and lately (my favorite) the discovery the atom itself reasponds differently when a conscious observer is observing the atom. So the atom is conscious.
‘The details are a mystery but historically the orthodox have the reasons you read biblically, and they have visions culturally in their countries with the dead while now in modern times we also have more scientific evidence with the double-slit experiment.

that’s all I know.

 

[Cameron143]

No clue how this part works.
‘’But according to the orthodox tradition we think of the dead as passing through on the other side and they are still alive consciously.
This belief is confirmed by apparitions throughout history of dead people and lately (my favorite) the discovery the atom itself reasponds differently when a conscious observer is observing the atom. So the atom is conscious.
‘The details are a mystery but historically the orthodox have the reasons you read biblically, and they have visions culturally in their countries with the dead while now in modern times we also have more scientific evidence with the double-slit experiment.

that’s all I know.

I appreciate you taking the time to answer my questions.

 

[JohnRH]

Do you believe they are in God's presence?

I do.

Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord: 7 (For we walk by faith, not by sight: ) 8 We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. 2 Cor 5:6-8 (KJV)

For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: Phil 1:23 (KJV)

And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. John 14:3 (KJV)

Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. John 17:24 (KJV)

 

[Eli1]

Maybe this idea is also supported Biblically when the apostles saw Jesus meeting Elijah and Moses.

 

[Jocund]

Are not all those in Christ saints?

Surely it would stand that there is nothing wrong with praying to a dead loved one wishing them well and hoping they are OK. It's a common thing to pay respects at a gravestone.

 

[Dean4u2c]

Is it okay to teach your kids to pray to a dead saint... like by writing a letter to one and asking for a bunch of toys.

Is it acceptable to lie to your own children and tell them-- using the same mouth you use to say that God split he Red Sea and raised Jesus from the dead-- that a magic fat guy flies around in a sleight and brings presents to all the houses in the world?

Is it wrong to present this dead saint as an omniscient man who knows everything about them, and if they aren't good, that he won't bring them any toys?

The traditions of men make void the word of God.