Is it okay to teach your kids to pray to a dead saint?
- Thread starter presidente
- Start date
-
Christian Chat is a moderated online Christian community allowing Christians around the world to fellowship with each other in real time chat via webcam, voice, and text, with the Christian Chat app. You can also start or participate in a Bible-based discussion here in the Christian Chat Forums, where members can also share with each other their own videos, pictures, or favorite Christian music.
If you are a Christian and need encouragement and fellowship, we're here for you! If you are not a Christian but interested in knowing more about Jesus our Lord, you're also welcome! Want to know what the Bible says, and how you can apply it to your life? Join us!
To make new Christian friends now around the world, click here to join Christian Chat.
Hi Dino. In order.
1) Well, there are two more passages in the subsequent chapters that could help clarify who is praying.
Rev 6:9 "And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
Here it is very clear that it is the Souls of Martyred Saints who are praying to God and asking Him for certain things. Would you agree or disagree? If so, then the Saints are clearly not "dead" at least. They live in Heaven in soul or spirit and pray.
In Revelation 8, it is said the Angels intercede for us before God, and the prayers of the Saints ascend through them too.
Rev 8:4 "And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand.
And so, coming back to Rev 5:8, it is reasonable to think the Saints, including the 24 Elders in Heaven, are praying for us.
2. True, the Rich Man did not ask anything of Lazarus. But Jesus Christ says he asked some things of Father Abraham. This shows that it was the custom among the Jewish Faithful, after praising and worshiping Almighty God, to invoke His Saints.
3. Ok. But for over 1000 years after the Canon was determined (382 A.D. to around 1530), by the early Christian Church, there was no doubt that Maccabees and Tobit etc were in the Canon. In the 16th century, when the questions about whether the Saints and Angels pray for us began to be debated/discussed, these books were removed from some canons.
Maccabees at the least shows it was a historical practice among the Jewish faithful before Christ to believe holy Prophets like Jeremiah, i.e. Old Testament Saints, prayed for them from Heaven. And Tobit contains a similar reference, very much like Rev 8:4. That's Tobit 12:15, another Deuterocanonical book, but very distinctly Jewish, and attesting their historical practice even before Christ's Incarnation.
Tob 12:15 "I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One." https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Tobit-Chapter-12/
1) Well, there are two more passages in the subsequent chapters that could help clarify who is praying.
Rev 6:9 "And when the Lamb opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the testimony they had upheld. 10And they cried out in a loud voice, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You avenge our blood and judge those who dwell upon the earth?”
Here it is very clear that it is the Souls of Martyred Saints who are praying to God and asking Him for certain things. Would you agree or disagree? If so, then the Saints are clearly not "dead" at least. They live in Heaven in soul or spirit and pray.
In Revelation 8, it is said the Angels intercede for us before God, and the prayers of the Saints ascend through them too.
Rev 8:4 "And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, ascended before God from the angel’s hand.
And so, coming back to Rev 5:8, it is reasonable to think the Saints, including the 24 Elders in Heaven, are praying for us.
2. True, the Rich Man did not ask anything of Lazarus. But Jesus Christ says he asked some things of Father Abraham. This shows that it was the custom among the Jewish Faithful, after praising and worshiping Almighty God, to invoke His Saints.
3. Ok. But for over 1000 years after the Canon was determined (382 A.D. to around 1530), by the early Christian Church, there was no doubt that Maccabees and Tobit etc were in the Canon. In the 16th century, when the questions about whether the Saints and Angels pray for us began to be debated/discussed, these books were removed from some canons.
Maccabees at the least shows it was a historical practice among the Jewish faithful before Christ to believe holy Prophets like Jeremiah, i.e. Old Testament Saints, prayed for them from Heaven. And Tobit contains a similar reference, very much like Rev 8:4. That's Tobit 12:15, another Deuterocanonical book, but very distinctly Jewish, and attesting their historical practice even before Christ's Incarnation.
Tob 12:15 "I am Raphael, one of the seven holy angels, which present the prayers of the saints, and which go in and out before the glory of the Holy One." https://www.kingjamesbibleonline.org/Tobit-Chapter-12/
-
1
-
1
- Show all
Hi Cameron. Agreed. Jesus Christ is our Best Advocate.
But don't we ask one another to pray for us to Our Lord Jesus? Don't we ask a pastor or our mother or someone close to us to pray for us. In the same way imo, as that Saint John Church link provided by Eli you quoted also mentioned, imo we can ask the Saints or Angels in Heaven to pray for us also.
In the Gospel, Our Lord indicates we all have Angel Guardians.
Mat 18:10: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven."
The Lord says "their Angels". This indicates Almighty God appoints an Angel to pray for, protect and guide every child imo. Thoughts on that and the other passages cited?
Also, the Bible indicates the prayers of a righteous man has great power to prevail with God, giving the example of Old Testament Saints like Elijah etc.
Jam 5: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail. 17Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth yielded its crops."
This is another reason the Saints, especially e.g. those who worked miracles in the name of the Lord like Elijah did in the OT, and St. Peter or St. Paul or St. John etc in the NT, are asked to pray for us. Even on earth, their prayers for the people of God were powerful. If so, how much more now from Heaven?
God Bless.
But don't we ask one another to pray for us to Our Lord Jesus? Don't we ask a pastor or our mother or someone close to us to pray for us. In the same way imo, as that Saint John Church link provided by Eli you quoted also mentioned, imo we can ask the Saints or Angels in Heaven to pray for us also.
In the Gospel, Our Lord indicates we all have Angel Guardians.
Mat 18:10: “See that you do not despise one of these little ones. For I tell you that their angels in heaven always see the face of my Father in heaven."
The Lord says "their Angels". This indicates Almighty God appoints an Angel to pray for, protect and guide every child imo. Thoughts on that and the other passages cited?
Also, the Bible indicates the prayers of a righteous man has great power to prevail with God, giving the example of Old Testament Saints like Elijah etc.
Jam 5: "The prayer of a righteous man has great power to prevail. 17Elijah was a man just like us. He prayed earnestly that it would not rain, and it did not rain on the land for three and a half years. 18Again he prayed, and the heavens gave rain, and the earth yielded its crops."
This is another reason the Saints, especially e.g. those who worked miracles in the name of the Lord like Elijah did in the OT, and St. Peter or St. Paul or St. John etc in the NT, are asked to pray for us. Even on earth, their prayers for the people of God were powerful. If so, how much more now from Heaven?
God Bless.
-
2
- Show all
Thanks for your thoughtful reply. My reticence is not that we shouldn't pray for one another but that we have access to our brothers and sisters in heaven.
Trust me when I tell you I can use all the prayers I can get. And I enjoyed reading the information that Eli shared. I'm just not convinced that such prayers are possible.
Trust me when I tell you I can use all the prayers I can get. And I enjoyed reading the information that Eli shared. I'm just not convinced that such prayers are possible.
-
1
- Show all
They talk to God, yes. I wouldn't call it praying as they are face to face with Him. Further, they are not asking Him "for" anything, but asking a question.
No, the angels are not interceding for us. The previous verse states that the angel was given incense to offer with the prayers of the saints; the saints do the interceding, and the angel adds incense.
No, it doesn't show anything of the sort. In the story, the rich man could see Lazarus with Jesus, and pleaded with Jesus to send Lazarus. Both had died. There is no interaction with those not yet dead. One event does not a custom make.
You are trying to make a doctrinal argument from a non-canonical source. It isn't going to fly.
No, the angels are not interceding for us. The previous verse states that the angel was given incense to offer with the prayers of the saints; the saints do the interceding, and the angel adds incense.
No, it doesn't show anything of the sort. In the story, the rich man could see Lazarus with Jesus, and pleaded with Jesus to send Lazarus. Both had died. There is no interaction with those not yet dead. One event does not a custom make.
You are trying to make a doctrinal argument from a non-canonical source. It isn't going to fly.
ultimately it really takes away the reasoning behind Christmas celebration. I wonder how many children hear about Christmas being a celebration of the birth of Jesus , as compared to children who know the fable about Santa who gives gifts to well behaved children ?
“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”
Revelation 22:12 KJV
“Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, And gave gifts unto men.”
Ephesians 4:8 KJV
Many of the things in the world seem to be a subtle mocking of God what we humans make of things I mean. It seems like it would be sort of damaging faith your asking then to believe in someone they can’t see that your telling them about but then later they realize it’s just a wives tale people tell kids
i wonder if that somehow warps thier faith when they hear about another man they’ve never seen but your telling them he’s there ? Seems like it could make an imprint subconsciously or something
“And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.”
Revelation 22:12 KJV
“Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, And gave gifts unto men.”
Ephesians 4:8 KJV
Many of the things in the world seem to be a subtle mocking of God what we humans make of things I mean. It seems like it would be sort of damaging faith your asking then to believe in someone they can’t see that your telling them about but then later they realize it’s just a wives tale people tell kids
i wonder if that somehow warps thier faith when they hear about another man they’ve never seen but your telling them he’s there ? Seems like it could make an imprint subconsciously or something
-
2
- Show all
I don't think it leaves a deleterious affect as my upbringing was much like you described. The jury is still out but I believe they will come back with the finding I turned out ok.
But your post did remind me of a story. I always was honest with my kids about Christmas but never had a problem putting Santa related ornaments alongside religiously decorated ones onthetree. But at a homeschooling function of multiple families my oldest son told his peers that Santa wasn't real. A number of the other parents were pretty upset about it. This actually surprised me.
But your post did remind me of a story. I always was honest with my kids about Christmas but never had a problem putting Santa related ornaments alongside religiously decorated ones onthetree. But at a homeschooling function of multiple families my oldest son told his peers that Santa wasn't real. A number of the other parents were pretty upset about it. This actually surprised me.
-
1
- Show all
amen im thinking your kids were probably made aware of CHRISTmas
i was sort of wondering about the ones who are just told about Santa and then later on hear about Jesus. Bit was just a wonder that arose I don’t think it would or wouldn’t just a thought I was pondering out loud
“my oldest son told his peers that Santa wasn't real. A number of the other parents were pretty upset about it. This actually surprised me.”
lol I’ve experienced the same reaction a few times when an older kid told a younger kid it’s crazy how upset some parents get about that
i suppose in thoer mind they want thier children to experience sort of a magical “ Christmas spirit “ type thing. Sort of only when your little will it feel that way waiting for Santa ect
i understand the concept and mostly I’m sure it’s innocent
what troubles me is how people are angry at the term “ CHristmas “ so they change it to happy holidays , or far worse to me merry “ x-mas”
just sort of blatantly and purposefully removing Christ from even the term On a holiday meant to remember and celebrate his birthday
pretty terrible since the American atheists came along removing God from schools there has been so much change
I remember learning scripture in a public school from a teacher
i was sort of wondering about the ones who are just told about Santa and then later on hear about Jesus. Bit was just a wonder that arose I don’t think it would or wouldn’t just a thought I was pondering out loud
“my oldest son told his peers that Santa wasn't real. A number of the other parents were pretty upset about it. This actually surprised me.”
lol I’ve experienced the same reaction a few times when an older kid told a younger kid it’s crazy how upset some parents get about that
i suppose in thoer mind they want thier children to experience sort of a magical “ Christmas spirit “ type thing. Sort of only when your little will it feel that way waiting for Santa ect
i understand the concept and mostly I’m sure it’s innocent
what troubles me is how people are angry at the term “ CHristmas “ so they change it to happy holidays , or far worse to me merry “ x-mas”
just sort of blatantly and purposefully removing Christ from even the term On a holiday meant to remember and celebrate his birthday
pretty terrible since the American atheists came along removing God from schools there has been so much change
I remember learning scripture in a public school from a teacher
-
1
- Show all
I do believe children are subject to many things today that cause them to lose both their innocence and their sense of wonder.
It's nigh impossible to restore innocence but wonder can be regained by simply lying beside your kids at night on the ground and looking up at the stars in the sky.
And wondering aloud can be a dangerous proposition online.
It's nigh impossible to restore innocence but wonder can be regained by simply lying beside your kids at night on the ground and looking up at the stars in the sky.
And wondering aloud can be a dangerous proposition online.
-
1
- Show all
I think Santa Clause is OK as long as you present him as being in the same category as Bugs Bunny or the cow that jumped over the moon: make-believe. But you should clearly differentiate between believe and make-believe, since believing in the Lord Jesus Christ as their Savior is the most important decision they'll ever make.
-
3
-
1
- Show all
M
Sometimes when a brother speaks fromthe heart it makes much sense according to scripture
*by simply lying beside your kids at night on the ground and looking up at the stars in the sky."
That's what God did with Abraham when he made the gospel covenant with him putting a greater hope than earthly land in his heart
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Genesis 15:5-6 KJV
Remember he had promised the first covenant according to the flesh seed and earhtly land he said this
And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: for all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Genesis 13:14-15 KJV
Afterwards abram the Hebrew was made new an given a better promise restoring his wonder and renamed Abraham father of many nations and promised the seed of Christ Jesus and the gospel by which he was and they in Christ were called into the heavens where Abraham was called to look by his father
And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Genesis 17:3-7 KJV
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
for as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:8, 16, 27-29 KJ
Sorry brother your thinking and comment there just echoed in my strange mind
Sometimes when a brother speaks fromthe heart it makes much sense according to scripture
*by simply lying beside your kids at night on the ground and looking up at the stars in the sky."
That's what God did with Abraham when he made the gospel covenant with him putting a greater hope than earthly land in his heart
And he brought him forth abroad, and said, Look now toward heaven, and tell the stars, if thou be able to number them: and he said unto him, So shall thy seed be. And he believed in the LORD; and he counted it to him for righteousness.
Genesis 15:5-6 KJV
Remember he had promised the first covenant according to the flesh seed and earhtly land he said this
And the LORD said unto Abram, after that Lot was separated from him, Lift up now thine eyes, and look from the place where thou art northward, and southward, and eastward, and westward: for all the land which thou seest, to thee will I give it, and to thy seed for ever.
Genesis 13:14-15 KJV
Afterwards abram the Hebrew was made new an given a better promise restoring his wonder and renamed Abraham father of many nations and promised the seed of Christ Jesus and the gospel by which he was and they in Christ were called into the heavens where Abraham was called to look by his father
And Abram fell on his face: and God talked with him, saying, As for me, behold, my covenant is with thee, and thou shalt be a father of many nations. Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. And I will make thee exceeding fruitful, and I will make nations of thee, and kings shall come out of thee. And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee.
Genesis 17:3-7 KJV
And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed. Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
for as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.
Galatians 3:8, 16, 27-29 KJ
Sorry brother your thinking and comment there just echoed in my strange mind
-
1
- Show all
Other Bible verses touching on the issue:
1. Col 1:3-4: "3We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the Saints" "for all" means those in Heaven and on earth included.
2. Eph 1:15 "Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the Saints, 16do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers". Same concept. (1) Believe in the Lord Jesus and (2) Love all the Saints. There are some who say "Since I believe the Lord Jesus, I don't need to love any Saint". But the Bible says otherwise.
3. Hebrews 12:1 "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us"
Who are these "great cloud of witnesses"? The Saints and Heroes of the Faith going back to the OT mentioned in the last chapter, starting with Abel (verse 4) until verse 32: "Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies" etc. These are the Old Testament Saints/Heroes of Faith who now are our "Cloud of Witnesses" in Heaven. They clearly are aware therefore of what we do or ask them.
Well, what is the difference between Prayer and Talking to God, exactly? Isn't Prayer nothing other than talking to God?
Further, they were asking for Divine Judgment on the Persecutors of Christians. Then they were given white robes, and told to wait for that Judgment to come. Here's the verse again with the subsequent one: "10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? 11Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed"
Note that this is all clearly before the Resurrection on the Last Day, and shows the Souls of Saints in Heaven are praying/asking God for various requests, such as Judgment on unbelievers or more specifically on persecutors.
So why is it written the prayers of the saints ascend to God through the Angel's hand? If you ask God for something, that is a prayer you are making. If I join with you in asking that for you along with you, then we can say your prayer is ascending to God's Throne through my hand as well. And that imo is what is happening in Heaven. First, the Saints in Heaven pray for us, and then their prayer passes through the Angels and then ascends to/reaches the Throne of God.
Please read it again. The Rich Man didn't see Lazarus with Jesus. He saw Lazarus with Abraham.
"Luk 16:
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony."
So we see (1) Abraham is alive (2) he can understand requests made to him (3) and he says yes or no depending on the case. If the Jews did not believe their departed Saints, such as Abraham, could pray for them, Christ would not have said this. But He did. Please note the Sadducees denied both the (1) Resurrection and also (2) departed Saints and (3) Angels.
This is mentioned in the Book of Acts. I will give the reference if you ask.
At the least, the Books of Maccabees and Tobit are of historical value showing what the Jews before Christ believed.
But which authority established they were not Biblical Canon? Martin Luther? Sorry, but he also considered (1) James, (2) Jude, (3) Hebrews and (4) Revelation as disputed books in the NT. I am fairly sure you would not agree with him on that, Dino. Or do you? Meanwhile, in the 4th Century, the Christian Church had already determined the complete Biblical Canon, and Tobit and Maccabees were included in it. Reference: " In the 4th century the Council of Rome had outlined the books which now appear in the Catholic Canon.[11] Luther considered Hebrews, James, Jude, and the Revelation to be "disputed books", which he included in his translation but placed separately at the end in his New Testament published in 1522." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther's_canon#Hebrews,_James,_Jude_and_Revelation
But anyway, regardless of the canonical status of Tobit and Maccabees, other undisputable books like Revelation indicate that the Saints in Heaven are alive and pray for us. Also, Elijah and Moses appeared to the Apostles to show they were alive. As I mentioned, the Sadducees denied this; they denied the Resurrection, and they denied the Saints were alive in Heaven. But neither Christ nor His Apostles ever agreed with them, neither does the true interpretation of the OT Scripture
God Bless.
1. Col 1:3-4: "3We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you, 4since we heard of your faith in Christ Jesus and of your love for all the Saints" "for all" means those in Heaven and on earth included.
2. Eph 1:15 "Therefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love for all the Saints, 16do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers". Same concept. (1) Believe in the Lord Jesus and (2) Love all the Saints. There are some who say "Since I believe the Lord Jesus, I don't need to love any Saint". But the Bible says otherwise.
3. Hebrews 12:1 "Therefore, since we are surrounded by such a great cloud of witnesses, let us throw off everything that hinders and the sin that so easily entangles. And let us run with perseverance the race marked out for us"
Who are these "great cloud of witnesses"? The Saints and Heroes of the Faith going back to the OT mentioned in the last chapter, starting with Abel (verse 4) until verse 32: "Gideon, Barak, Samson and Jephthah, about David and Samuel and the prophets, 33who through faith conquered kingdoms, administered justice, and gained what was promised; who shut the mouths of lions, 34quenched the fury of the flames, and escaped the edge of the sword; whose weakness was turned to strength; and who became powerful in battle and routed foreign armies" etc. These are the Old Testament Saints/Heroes of Faith who now are our "Cloud of Witnesses" in Heaven. They clearly are aware therefore of what we do or ask them.
Well, what is the difference between Prayer and Talking to God, exactly? Isn't Prayer nothing other than talking to God?
Further, they were asking for Divine Judgment on the Persecutors of Christians. Then they were given white robes, and told to wait for that Judgment to come. Here's the verse again with the subsequent one: "10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, until You judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell on the earth? 11Then a white robe was given to each of them; and it was said to them that they should rest a little while longer, until both the number of their fellow servants and their brethren, who would be killed as they were, was completed"
Note that this is all clearly before the Resurrection on the Last Day, and shows the Souls of Saints in Heaven are praying/asking God for various requests, such as Judgment on unbelievers or more specifically on persecutors.
So why is it written the prayers of the saints ascend to God through the Angel's hand? If you ask God for something, that is a prayer you are making. If I join with you in asking that for you along with you, then we can say your prayer is ascending to God's Throne through my hand as well. And that imo is what is happening in Heaven. First, the Saints in Heaven pray for us, and then their prayer passes through the Angels and then ascends to/reaches the Throne of God.
Please read it again. The Rich Man didn't see Lazarus with Jesus. He saw Lazarus with Abraham.
"Luk 16:
23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ 25 “But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted here and you are in agony."
So we see (1) Abraham is alive (2) he can understand requests made to him (3) and he says yes or no depending on the case. If the Jews did not believe their departed Saints, such as Abraham, could pray for them, Christ would not have said this. But He did. Please note the Sadducees denied both the (1) Resurrection and also (2) departed Saints and (3) Angels.
This is mentioned in the Book of Acts. I will give the reference if you ask.
At the least, the Books of Maccabees and Tobit are of historical value showing what the Jews before Christ believed.
But which authority established they were not Biblical Canon? Martin Luther? Sorry, but he also considered (1) James, (2) Jude, (3) Hebrews and (4) Revelation as disputed books in the NT. I am fairly sure you would not agree with him on that, Dino. Or do you? Meanwhile, in the 4th Century, the Christian Church had already determined the complete Biblical Canon, and Tobit and Maccabees were included in it. Reference: " In the 4th century the Council of Rome had outlined the books which now appear in the Catholic Canon.[11] Luther considered Hebrews, James, Jude, and the Revelation to be "disputed books", which he included in his translation but placed separately at the end in his New Testament published in 1522." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luther's_canon#Hebrews,_James,_Jude_and_Revelation
But anyway, regardless of the canonical status of Tobit and Maccabees, other undisputable books like Revelation indicate that the Saints in Heaven are alive and pray for us. Also, Elijah and Moses appeared to the Apostles to show they were alive. As I mentioned, the Sadducees denied this; they denied the Resurrection, and they denied the Saints were alive in Heaven. But neither Christ nor His Apostles ever agreed with them, neither does the true interpretation of the OT Scripture
God Bless.
-
1
- Show all
No, it's not okay at all. But what I want to know is why praying to Santa is bad but observing the pagan winter solstice as Jesus' birthday is good? Why don't we just find a way to gloss over Santa too so we can honor him at Christmas; we cold say he's actually the head wise man or something.
-
1
- Show all
Ok. Fair enough, Cameron. Let's pray for one another and God will show us in due time whether the Saints in Heaven pray for us or not. I agree others here on Earth praying for us is a blessing and I think we all agree with that.
In Hebrews 12, it speaks of the spirits of the righteous/just men made perfect: "22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect".
Here's the reference for what I mentioned about the Sadducees: "(The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees believe all these things.)" (Acts 23:8)
So the Sadducees wrongly said there was no (1) Resurrection, (2) no Angels and (3) no spirits, i.e. no departed Saints living in Heaven. But neither the OT as a whole nor the NT agrees with them. The above verse speaks of the spirits of the righteous which imo is a clear reference to the Saints living, not dead, in Heaven. These are the "Cloud of Witnesses" mentioned earlier in the same chapter in verse 1.
Recall that even in the Gospel, Jesus Christ answered the Sadducees by telling them that, since God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and He declared Himself such to Moses, it follows that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were living, not dead, in the time of Moses. This is what He meant when He said God is the God of the Living, i.e. Abraham and Isaac etc were living.
"Mat 22:29:
29Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching."
God Bless.
In Hebrews 12, it speaks of the spirits of the righteous/just men made perfect: "22But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect".
Here's the reference for what I mentioned about the Sadducees: "(The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees believe all these things.)" (Acts 23:8)
So the Sadducees wrongly said there was no (1) Resurrection, (2) no Angels and (3) no spirits, i.e. no departed Saints living in Heaven. But neither the OT as a whole nor the NT agrees with them. The above verse speaks of the spirits of the righteous which imo is a clear reference to the Saints living, not dead, in Heaven. These are the "Cloud of Witnesses" mentioned earlier in the same chapter in verse 1.
Recall that even in the Gospel, Jesus Christ answered the Sadducees by telling them that, since God is the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, and He declared Himself such to Moses, it follows that Abraham, Isaac and Jacob were living, not dead, in the time of Moses. This is what He meant when He said God is the God of the Living, i.e. Abraham and Isaac etc were living.
"Mat 22:29:
29Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. 30For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven. 31But concerning the resurrection of the dead, have you not read what was spoken to you by God, saying, 32‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.” 33And when the multitudes heard this, they were astonished at His teaching."
God Bless.
-
2
- Show all
Message from Anglican pastor today compared Jesus and Santa. It was aimed at the kids but made an excellent point. "Santa" rewards only good behaviour. Jesus loves us no matter what. I never lied to my children about Santa. I was devastated when I discovered that my parents had deceived me. I would not do that to my kids.