Senate passes same-sex marriage bill with bipartisan support

[ZNP]

All I'm doing is giving numbers and statistics.

You have tied blacks being in poverty to the effects of slavery. Are blacks still suffering from slavery? Perhaps, but not in the way BLM would have you believe. Slavery promoted promiscuity among blacks and it damaged the self respect. Black families that have self respect, dignity, and avoid promiscuity are not suffering from the ill effects of slavery. The issue is not that whites are oppressing them, it is that sin is oppressing them and a root of bitterness. I have been to many gatherings with over 100 blacks. Everyone there has struggled and gone through hardship. Some drank too much, some used drugs in the past, and some were promiscuous. But they repented, they all have jobs, they are responsible to their family, and they are building up a solid community. I attended a "black church" in Queens though in reality it was multicultural. There were over a 1000 members. No one wanted to defund the police. No one felt like they were being oppressed. All of that stuff does not represent the vast majority of blacks in NYC or St. Louis (the two communities I am most familiar with).

Since you seem to have a problem with reading comprehension I'll say it a third time. Around 60% of abortions are due to poverty.

Wow, pretty insulting. I don't have a problem with reading what you are saying, I do have a problem with the simplistic logic.

1. Does abortion alleviate the problems of poverty or promote them? If abortion "helps" the poor then show me what community it has helped.
2. The poor are also more likely to be drug addicts and/or alcoholics. Does selling drugs and alcohol to addicts help them or is that the reason they are poor?
3. 50 years ago we were told that abortion would help the poor climb out of poverty because they wouldn't have to care for the unwanted baby and so could continue with their career. But no one says that anymore. Strange. Instead they use this to explain why the poor are having abortions at a higher rate than the wealthy. The statistics are undeniable, abortion is killing blacks at a rate 5x greater than whites. Abortion is not helping blacks to better themselves or climb out of poverty. Abortion was promoted heavily by a woman who was racist, spoke at the KKK, and focused her attention on black neighborhoods.
4. The people who do have solutions to poverty are churches and houses of worship. Malcolm X had a very effective program for getting people off drugs and out of the sex industry. So this is not exclusively a Christian domain, but it is undeniable that many people have turned their lives around in the church. The same cannot be said of abortion.

African-American women are statistically more likely to have abortions.
So it's not just "planned Parenthood bad" it's a more complicated problem

I realize that and I have provided many factors that this is so.

However, I have not seen any evidence at all to support claims made by pro abortionists. Abortion has not helped the Black community.

 

[ZNP]

I never claimed that abortions are reducing poverty so Captain strawman strikes again. However what I have said multiple times on this forum is that if we could reduce poverty then maybe you might start seeing abortion numbers go down because people who are financially well off usually don't have abortions

We can reduce poverty, try reading my posts. Abortion is not helpful it is harmful, a negative feedback loop.

1. Teenage girl has sex and gets pregnant.

2. She isn't worried because she can get an abortion.

3. The boy does not feel any responsibility because she got an abortion.

4. This leads to irresponsible sex without consequences. The girl likes it at first because she has lots and lots of attention.

5. However, one day the girl realizes she is considered a slut and no one is interested in marrying her. She also realizes that her extra curricular activities distracted her from focusing on her education. Now the best way for her to support herself is welfare and kids. I have known women who wind up with five kids with five different fathers.

6. These kids grow up in a promiscuous house and are trained from a young age that this is what boys and girls do.

 

[ZNP]

I said most people have abortions due to poverty and African-American women are statistically more likely to have abortions.
Can you countered with yeah but there are some wealthy black people. So that's just whataboutism

No I countered that it is really a rich people/poor people issue, not a black and white issue.

Poor people have abortions. So the solution is to reduce poverty.

Black people are more likely to be poor so the solution is to find out why that is.

I am arguing that if you look at why that is you will see that abortion is playing a key role in why people are poor. It is easy to see that addiction to drugs or alcohol leads to poverty. Addiction to sex also leads to poverty.

 

[Cameron143]

No I'm just stating statistics and statistics don't lie.
Facts don't care about your feelings... Facts are. Over 60% of abortions are due to poverty.
Black women are statistically more likely to have abortions.
The average black family has 10 times less wealth than the average white family.
With all my wife is deceased, I still consider my in-laws family but I'm not pretentious enough to act like I can speak for all black people in America

I think it was Mark Twain who said...

There are lies, damnable lies, and then there are statistics.

 

[Dude653]

I think it was Mark Twain who said...

There are lies, damnable lies, and then there are statistics.

What's your point?

 

[Dude653]

No I countered that it is really a rich people/poor people issue, not a black and white issue.

Poor people have abortions. So the solution is to reduce poverty.

Black people are more likely to be poor so the solution is to find out why that is.

I am arguing that if you look at why that is you will see that abortion is playing a key role in why people are poor. It is easy to see that addiction to drugs or alcohol leads to poverty. Addiction to sex also leads to poverty.

Yeah I already said that.
And then I stayed in some of the reasons for poverty in the black community and then you acted like an edge Lord and said
"It's always someone else's fault"

 

[ZNP]

It is disgusting to people who have watched this for the last 50 years. They make claims about how abortion will help the poor and then there is no accountability. We have 50 years of history. We can easily see what has helped the poor and what has not helped the poor.

Get rid of addiction to drugs, alcohol and sex and you will solve 80% of the problem.

There are ways with a concerted effort we could do that.

1. Drug dealers have many weak links. First of all their customers can easily be spotted, picked up, flipped, and turned into confidential informants. Second we can follow the money. The drug trade dries up real fast if you seize the money. According to RICO if you have a conspiracy to commit a crime you can take 5x what you can prove in court they did. Take down a money laundering operation, put the people in prison, seize the money and use it to pay for the investigations taking down the drug trade. Seize their cars and gold chains and use that as well to pay for it. From the money laundering operation they will then ship the money out of the country. Follow the people driving that money. Again, if you seize the money you can seize 5x that, so you get the cars, etc. The people they use driving the money don't have felonies and the cars are clean. Putting felonies on these guys and seizing the cars, the money, and 5x that will put a big crimp on their operation. I wouldn't try to flip them, I'd try and get them 10 years in prison. These guys often will rent the car, so you go to the car rental place and point out that if they continue renting cars over and over again to money laundering operation that you will shut them down. With every single trial you can subpoena them, and audit their records. This will get the car rental companies to cooperate with the police. Car rental companies can track their cars so we don't need to tail them. If the car is going across the nation, say from NY to the Southern border when they stop at a motel you send in a DEA agent to put a tracker on the car in the middle of the night. Once you track it to the border you get the cartel involved and now you can use the NSA to listen to all their communications and tip off the local police. Now you can make it look like they have a mole inside the operation and you start to frame key people so that the mafia begins to "clean house" killing their key people. This makes them highly paranoid and willing to enter the witness protection program.

All it takes is one or two highly placed witnesses to unravel an entire operation.

2. The cost to take care of kids in after school programs is pennies on the dollar compared to dealing with the problem once the kids become addicts or get involved in gangs. Simple solution to remove the customers and pawns in their operation. 2nd make it a crime to recruit kids to a gang. When you find a kid in a gang make it so that the kid is sent to a special detention center that is hundreds of miles from the city and apply pressure on the parents and the kid to find out who recruited the kid. They pick these kids because they are too young to go to prison. Stop pretending this is trivial, detention center till they are 18 and bring the parent/parents up on educational neglect. I could go into great detail over the after school programs that could help raise the kids in a way that they would never want to get involved with gangs or drugs. These programs have to start in 1st grade. You can't wait till HS, you can't even wait till JHS.

Focus the same attention on the sex trade.

 

[ZNP]

What's your point?

His point was obvious to me, how could you have missed it?

 

[Cameron143]

What's your point?

Statistics can be manipulated to say just about anything one likes.

 

[Dude653]

His point was obvious to me, how could you have missed it?

I missed it because there's nothing there. He just posted a vague quote with no context. That's not how a conversation works

 

[kaylagrl]

It is disgusting to people who have watched this for the last 50 years. They make claims about how abortion will help the poor and then there is no accountability. We have 50 years of history. We can easily see what has helped the poor and what has not helped the poor.

Get rid of addiction to drugs, alcohol and sex and you will solve 80% of the problem.

There are ways with a concerted effort we could do that.

1. Drug dealers have many weak links. First of all their customers can easily be spotted, picked up, flipped, and turned into confidential informants. Second we can follow the money. The drug trade dries up real fast if you seize the money. According to RICO if you have a conspiracy to commit a crime you can take 5x what you can prove in court they did. Take down a money laundering operation, put the people in prison, seize the money and use it to pay for the investigations taking down the drug trade. Seize their cars and gold chains and use that as well to pay for it. From the money laundering operation they will then ship the money out of the country. Follow the people driving that money. Again, if you seize the money you can seize 5x that, so you get the cars, etc. The people they use driving the money don't have felonies and the cars are clean. Putting felonies on these guys and seizing the cars, the money, and 5x that will put a big crimp on their operation. I wouldn't try to flip them, I'd try and get them 10 years in prison. These guys often will rent the car, so you go to the car rental place and point out that if they continue renting cars over and over again to money laundering operation that you will shut them down. With every single trial you can subpoena them, and audit their records. This will get the car rental companies to cooperate with the police. Car rental companies can track their cars so we don't need to tail them. If the car is going across the nation, say from NY to the Southern border when they stop at a motel you send in a DEA agent to put a tracker on the car in the middle of the night. Once you track it to the border you get the cartel involved and now you can use the NSA to listen to all their communications and tip off the local police. Now you can make it look like they have a mole inside the operation and you start to frame key people so that the mafia begins to "clean house" killing their key people. This makes them highly paranoid and willing to enter the witness protection program.

All it takes is one or two highly placed witnesses to unravel an entire operation.

2. The cost to take care of kids in after school programs is pennies on the dollar compared to dealing with the problem once the kids become addicts or get involved in gangs. Simple solution to remove the customers and pawns in their operation. 2nd make it a crime to recruit kids to a gang. When you find a kid in a gang make it so that the kid is sent to a special detention center that is hundreds of miles from the city and apply pressure on the parents and the kid to find out who recruited the kid. They pick these kids because they are too young to go to prison. Stop pretending this is trivial, detention center till they are 18 and bring the parent/parents up on educational neglect. I could go into great detail over the after school programs that could help raise the kids in a way that they would never want to get involved with gangs or drugs. These programs have to start in 1st grade. You can't wait till HS, you can't even wait till JHS.

Focus the same attention on the sex trade.

It has been a plan all along of the Dem gov't. In the 50s black fathers were in the home. The gov. got involved and paid mothers to stay single and make babies. Then they encourage abortion. Eugenics has never changed. I cringe every time I see a black woman who speaks for PP and I think, how can she not know their whole agenda is targeted to wiping out blacks and other people they deem undesirable? PP hasn't changed its ideals since it's founding with Sanger, racist eugenicists.

 

[Cameron143]

I missed it because there's nothing there. He just posted a vague quote with no context. That's not how a conversation works

My point is that research is only as reliable as the researcher. Doing so with a colorful allusion was just a bonus.

 

[Dude653]

My point is that research is only as reliable as the researcher. Doing so with a colorful allusion was just a bonus.

Yeah not really. Especially when it comes to scientific research which is peer reviewed.
Statistics don't change no matter who's researching them. Also it's kind of funny how you're quoting an atheist who openly ridiculed religion

 

[Cameron143]

Yeah not really. Especially when it comes to scientific research which is peer reviewed.
Statistics don't change no matter who's researching them. Also it's kind of funny how you're quoting an atheist who openly ridiculed religion

Did I erroneously appropriate atheism? My apologies.

 

[ZNP]

I missed it because there's nothing there. He just posted a vague quote with no context. That's not how a conversation works

Another poster countered the claim that abortion targets black women by saying that most Planned Parenthood locations are in white neighborhoods. It is an irrelevant fact that is designed to distract from the point. How does that counter the claim that black babies are aborted at a rate 5x higher than white babies? It doesn't. Just because Planned Parenthood performs abortions does not mean that this is the only thing they do, and just because a clinic is in a "white neighborhood" doesn't mean a black woman can't go there to get an abortion. Think about it, do you want to go to get an abortion where people who know you will recognize you? Also what does a "white neighborhood mean". Not 100% white. Maybe 80%. So what, Blacks are only 14% of the US population. Also, just because you don't live in a neighborhood doesn't mean you don't work there. It is an idiotic fact that means absolutely nothing.

Now you keep saying how blacks are poorer than whites and making that the reason that they are getting more abortions as though that disputes the idea that abortion is racist.

1. Why are blacks poorer -- regardless of whether or not it is the residual effects of slavery, or what those effects are, the fact is this is racist and came from the South during slavery which then became the KKK which then became Jim Crowe.

2. Abortion is a key component of this. You claim that it is a symptom of being poor. I disagree, I believe it is a cause. If you put a Casino in a community does it help the community get out of poverty? Or does the gambling addiction hurt the community worse than any help from those who are employed there?

The bottom line is promoting addiction is harmful to society and it is always sold as a benefit. The lottery gives money to schools, casinos will bring jobs, tax the alcohol, abortion will help people get out of poverty. These claims are provably false.

 

[Dude653]

Did I erroneously appropriate atheism? My apologies.

No I just thought it was funny how you quoted someone who was atheist who openly ridiculed religion thinking it was a sick burn

 

[Cameron143]

Yeah not really. Especially when it comes to scientific research which is peer reviewed.
Statistics don't change no matter who's researching them. Also it's kind of funny how you're quoting an atheist who openly ridiculed religion

My son is a pharmacist. He is continually reading research papers to be aware of the most recent drugs available. One of his complaints about some researchers is for financial gain unscrupulous researchers will hide unfavorable findings and sometimes encourage others to do the same. Peer review isn't the standard of acceptance but rather the repeatable results.
Research is only as reliable as its source.

 

[Dude653]

Another poster countered the claim that abortion targets black women by saying that most Planned Parenthood locations are in white neighborhoods. It is an irrelevant fact that is designed to distract from the point. How does that counter the claim that black babies are aborted at a rate 5x higher than white babies? It doesn't. Just because Planned Parenthood performs abortions does not mean that this is the only thing they do, and just because a clinic is in a "white neighborhood" doesn't mean a black woman can't go there to get an abortion. Think about it, do you want to go to get an abortion where people who know you will recognize you? Also what does a "white neighborhood mean". Not 100% white. Maybe 80%. So what, Blacks are only 14% of the US population. Also, just because you don't live in a neighborhood doesn't mean you don't work there. It is an idiotic fact that means absolutely nothing.

Now you keep saying how blacks are poorer than whites and making that the reason that they are getting more abortions as though that disputes the idea that abortion is racist.

1. Why are blacks poorer -- regardless of whether or not it is the residual effects of slavery, or what those effects are, the fact is this is racist and came from the South during slavery which then became the KKK which then became Jim Crowe.

Yeah you're right about the casinos and gambling but this part was just word salad

 

[Cameron143]

No I just thought it was funny how you quoted someone who was atheist who openly ridiculed religion thinking it was a sick burn

There are many intelligent people of every persuasion. Their problem isn't their intelligence but its use.
Perhaps you have revealed something about yourself you didn't realize was true. I can differentiate between a person and their actions and find value in all people. Truth is truth regardless of its source. You even get some things right occasionally.

 

[ZNP]

It was word salad because the claims that abortion were sold on have not been true and they have dropped it like a lead balloon.

Abortion does not help the poor. It does the same damage that drug dealers, Casinos and sex workers do.

Dealing with crime and addiction is far more expensive than just having after school programs for every kid. Why is it that poorer countries like Taiwan don't have this problem? Because they gobble up 100% of the kids into public school from morning to night.