Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.
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My brother, I appreciate you sharing, and please understand that I don’t overlook or take lightly Scripture that is used to support calvinism. One thing to remember however about the Scripture you share above, don’t overlook the words, “what if.” Paul is not making a declaration but rather a statement of possibility. On another note, I love your love for the Lord.
It is obvious that Jesus' will is different from the Father's will.
Matt 26: 39 And He went a little further, and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Jesus died for the whole world and wants everyone to get saved, but as explained in Rom 9: 22, the Father wants to show His wrath and consequences for sin on the vessels fitted to destruction as well as His mercy on the vessels of mercy on those He predestined.
Rom 9: 23-24 And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had before prepared unto glory, Even ( that is) us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Eph 1: 3- Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ ( we are in Christ because we are part of His spiritual body and as such receive all the blessings He receives from His life and death), According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy, and without blame before Him, in love Having predestined us unto the adoption of sons by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of His will ( the Father chooses whoever He wants to fill Jesus Christ's spiritual body. ), To the praise of th glory of His grace, through which He hath made us accepted in the Beloved; ( because we are part of Jesus' spiritual body when we trust in His death for the forgiveness of sins and receive His Holy Spirit which was given to Him by the Father when He was glorified and is given to those predestined.) Having made known unto US the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself; ( Not everyone who declares themselves as Christians are going to understand the mystery of His will. Just the ones that receive His Holy Spirit).
Matt 26: 39 And He went a little further, and fell on His face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me; nevertheless, not as I will, but as thou wilt.
Jesus died for the whole world and wants everyone to get saved, but as explained in Rom 9: 22, the Father wants to show His wrath and consequences for sin on the vessels fitted to destruction as well as His mercy on the vessels of mercy on those He predestined.
Rom 9: 23-24 And that He might make known the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He had before prepared unto glory, Even ( that is) us, whom He hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
Eph 1: 3- Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ ( we are in Christ because we are part of His spiritual body and as such receive all the blessings He receives from His life and death), According as He hath chosen us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy, and without blame before Him, in love Having predestined us unto the adoption of sons by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of His will ( the Father chooses whoever He wants to fill Jesus Christ's spiritual body. ), To the praise of th glory of His grace, through which He hath made us accepted in the Beloved; ( because we are part of Jesus' spiritual body when we trust in His death for the forgiveness of sins and receive His Holy Spirit which was given to Him by the Father when He was glorified and is given to those predestined.) Having made known unto US the mystery of His will, according to His good pleasure which He hath purposed in Himself; ( Not everyone who declares themselves as Christians are going to understand the mystery of His will. Just the ones that receive His Holy Spirit).
The question I asked was seeking clarification from Inquistor for what he meant by "Israel".
The 'an' part is out of place.
I've never made a claim in quite that particular way you phrased it above.
The seed promises were never made to an ethnic bloodline, they were made to Christ and those in Christ. Abraham, Jacob/Israel, and Isaac were each directly given the promises, and in each promise Christ is referenced (the seed). There are other promises, references, and prophesies to true "Israel" or "all Israel" which is a subgroup within "of Israel". There were certainly bloodlines pertaining to promise, it's just that not the case that every ethnic bloodline would fall under those promises. Christ Himself is an example of an ethnic Isaac descendant that does qualify for every promise to all Israel.
I think it's important to note that "house of Israel" also appears to be a different reference than "all Israel" or "all of Israel" with unclear overlap.
There are promises made to a spiritual people. The fleshly component and how it related to the flesh is really the focus of the conversation.
I don't agree with this premise, mostly because 'Christian' doesn't mean 'Gentile' and there are still inheritors of the promises that are Isrealite by heritage (such as Paul). The inheritance of the seed promises are largely irrespective of genetic heritage because they are attained through Christ.
I think it would still be the case that you would need to demonstrate that these promises were ever made exclusively to ethnic bloodlines to begin with. The moment "all Israel" is referenced is where that question especially comes into play.
I don't necessarily agree with many of the interpretations of the "times of the Gentiles".
I think that if we are looking at what you are proposing though, you are stating that there is an unrealized ethnic group that will move into the physical land promised to Abraham at the end of what Dispensationalists commonly refer to as a "Church age". And from that, probably something about a 1000 year kingdom ruled by an ethnic group on earth?
The scenario has interesting implications including the question of how would we ever know who is part of that ethnic group or not?
I know that some users have two user names. Are you also Inquisitor?
We can certainly look at what the minimum remnant are.
Let me propose a counter interpretation:
The 144k represent OT saints of the tribes, and the transition of John's vision to see a multitude of those dressed in white represents the change into the NT covenant, and that the 144k have blended into the crowd and become indistinct (also dressed in white/Christ). The multitude do not represent Gentile converts, but all Christians regardless of origin, from all nations and people.
Many Israeli people have high content of Canaanite ancestry, according to at least one study. But this goes back to the dilemma of determining ancestry. There is at least one user on here that proposed the idea that when Paul converted to Christianity that he ceased being part of Israel (invalid to inherit the promises through bloodline).
There are strange aspects of ontology that need to be hashed out to reach any consensus about ancestry.
Even the ontology of what it means to be in Christ needs to be hashed out.
If a promise was made to flesh, and man and wife become one in flesh, do they not then share that same promise? If the Church is the wife and Christ is the bridegroom, do they not share things after marriage that they did not previously share before marriage?
If a promise is made to a body and something is consumed and integrated into the body, does that promise not also then apply to that integrated part?
The 'an' part is out of place.
I've never made a claim in quite that particular way you phrased it above.
The seed promises were never made to an ethnic bloodline, they were made to Christ and those in Christ. Abraham, Jacob/Israel, and Isaac were each directly given the promises, and in each promise Christ is referenced (the seed). There are other promises, references, and prophesies to true "Israel" or "all Israel" which is a subgroup within "of Israel". There were certainly bloodlines pertaining to promise, it's just that not the case that every ethnic bloodline would fall under those promises. Christ Himself is an example of an ethnic Isaac descendant that does qualify for every promise to all Israel.
I think it's important to note that "house of Israel" also appears to be a different reference than "all Israel" or "all of Israel" with unclear overlap.
There are promises made to a spiritual people. The fleshly component and how it related to the flesh is really the focus of the conversation.
I don't agree with this premise, mostly because 'Christian' doesn't mean 'Gentile' and there are still inheritors of the promises that are Isrealite by heritage (such as Paul). The inheritance of the seed promises are largely irrespective of genetic heritage because they are attained through Christ.
I think it would still be the case that you would need to demonstrate that these promises were ever made exclusively to ethnic bloodlines to begin with. The moment "all Israel" is referenced is where that question especially comes into play.
I don't necessarily agree with many of the interpretations of the "times of the Gentiles".
I think that if we are looking at what you are proposing though, you are stating that there is an unrealized ethnic group that will move into the physical land promised to Abraham at the end of what Dispensationalists commonly refer to as a "Church age". And from that, probably something about a 1000 year kingdom ruled by an ethnic group on earth?
The scenario has interesting implications including the question of how would we ever know who is part of that ethnic group or not?
I know that some users have two user names. Are you also Inquisitor?
We can certainly look at what the minimum remnant are.
Let me propose a counter interpretation:
The 144k represent OT saints of the tribes, and the transition of John's vision to see a multitude of those dressed in white represents the change into the NT covenant, and that the 144k have blended into the crowd and become indistinct (also dressed in white/Christ). The multitude do not represent Gentile converts, but all Christians regardless of origin, from all nations and people.
Many Israeli people have high content of Canaanite ancestry, according to at least one study. But this goes back to the dilemma of determining ancestry. There is at least one user on here that proposed the idea that when Paul converted to Christianity that he ceased being part of Israel (invalid to inherit the promises through bloodline).
There are strange aspects of ontology that need to be hashed out to reach any consensus about ancestry.
Even the ontology of what it means to be in Christ needs to be hashed out.
If a promise was made to flesh, and man and wife become one in flesh, do they not then share that same promise? If the Church is the wife and Christ is the bridegroom, do they not share things after marriage that they did not previously share before marriage?
If a promise is made to a body and something is consumed and integrated into the body, does that promise not also then apply to that integrated part?
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I want to be nice here but has anyone actually ignored Google searches and looked directly into the archives themselves concerning John Calvin?
There's literal, not mythical, but 2 separate documentations one by the Government of France and another that affirms it by the Church that indicate Calvin had serious issues.
I won't go into detail but I find it fascinating how many follow the mind of a severe mental madman and believe they're adhereing to sound advice.
There's literal, not mythical, but 2 separate documentations one by the Government of France and another that affirms it by the Church that indicate Calvin had serious issues.
I won't go into detail but I find it fascinating how many follow the mind of a severe mental madman and believe they're adhereing to sound advice.
I agree, but the important point is that not all that someone might think of as being Israel would necessarily be Israel. Saul turning into Paul is an example about how the inheritance was never lost, it was just awaiting the intended timing. But it might be the case that someone like Saul could have had a fervent antiChrist father that was never in Spiritual Israel even though Saul himself was. It could even be the case that someone could have had both parents that were never part of Spiritual Israel despite the child being so.
~~
I'm still thinking on some of your other posts. I haven't forgotten them, I'm just taking my time contemplating them. I'll reply to them when I get a chance.
Cheers
~~
I'm still thinking on some of your other posts. I haven't forgotten them, I'm just taking my time contemplating them. I'll reply to them when I get a chance.
Cheers
Hello Jocund.
There is only one living Inquisitor.
Israel?
The Israel that was defined in the scripture.
Matthew 10:6
But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:24
But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Hebrews 8:8
For in finding fault with the people, He says, “Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, When I will bring about a new covenant With the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel After those days, declares the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, And write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, And they shall be My people.
There is only one living Inquisitor.
Israel?
The Israel that was defined in the scripture.
Matthew 10:6
But rather go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Matthew 15:24
But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Hebrews 8:8
For in finding fault with the people, He says, “Behold, days are coming, says the Lord, When I will bring about a new covenant With the house of Israel and the house of Judah,
Hebrews 8:10
For this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel After those days, declares the Lord: I will put My laws into their minds, And write them on their hearts. And I will be their God, And they shall be My people.
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