Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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why are you looking at chapter 2 for context?
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad:
Greetings.
he did not say to the saved
also he speaks of hearers not doers. and says that those of them who claimed to have faith but had no works had no faith at all. meaning they are not saved.
1 James, a bondservant of God and of the Lord Jesus Christ, To the twelve tribes which are scattered abroad:
Greetings.
he did not say to the saved
also he speaks of hearers not doers. and says that those of them who claimed to have faith but had no works had no faith at all. meaning they are not saved.
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Revelation 3 shows what it means, as Romans 2 says, that "6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:"
It gives us a foretaste of what Divine Judgment will be like.
Revelation 3:
"3 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
It gives us a foretaste of what Divine Judgment will be like.
Revelation 3:
"3 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
6 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;
8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown.
12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.
13 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
14 And unto the angel of the church of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the Amen, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God;
15 I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot.
16 So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.
17 Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:
18 I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19 As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.
20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.
21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.
22 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches.
Being in Adam is about not being resurrected. To be in Adam one has to sin. Also, Jesus Himself died and was resurrected even though He wasn't in Adam.
So let's settle this: when a baby is just born what is their sin according to you?
1 Corinthians 15
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
So let's settle this: when a baby is just born what is their sin according to you?
1 Corinthians 15
20But Christ has indeed been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21For since death came through a man, the resurrection of the dead comes also through a man. 22For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
I believe children have no personal guilt for the sin of Adam, but are deprived of the Holy Spirit and His Indwelling Grace - through no fault of their own - but as a Just Consequence of the Original Sin of Adam. They are born of flesh and so are flesh, until they are born again of water and the Holy Spirit. That's how St. Augustine explains Original Sin, and I agree. With the idea that we became either Totally Depraved or lost Free Will, I don't agree. We still have our natural powers of free will, even before regeneration. And then after receiving the Holy Spirit, we have His Divine Presence in our soul and He enables us to overcome sin just as the Blood of Christ washed it away in the first place. Yes, human nature is fallen, but God redeemed us, and gave us the power and the strength to overcome. Hence Saint Paul says: "I can do all things through Him Who strengthens me" in Philippians 4.
God Bless.
God Bless.
Consider this about John the Baptist:
Luke 1
15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.
And a question for consideration:
If this was true for John the Baptist, why can't it be true for anyone else?
Luke 1
15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even before he is born.
And a question for consideration:
If this was true for John the Baptist, why can't it be true for anyone else?
Yes they were scattered, he called them brethren.
As well there are no chapters, this is a letter and the passage I quoted stands.
They were believers, all the authors of the epistles have believers in mind as they write.
I have already stated quite clearly that the faith James is addressing it not salvific faith but the faith that is part of the Christian walk.
You make Paul and James contradictory and they are not.
The Bible says the HS indwells us and seals us AFTER we believe.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, *after* that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also *after* that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
NO mention of works.
What does the Bible say faith is? Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hopes for, the evidence of things unseen. Substance & evidence are nouns, therefore, faith is a noun, not a verb. Stop backloading works to the Gospel of grace.
As well there are no chapters, this is a letter and the passage I quoted stands.
They were believers, all the authors of the epistles have believers in mind as they write.
I have already stated quite clearly that the faith James is addressing it not salvific faith but the faith that is part of the Christian walk.
You make Paul and James contradictory and they are not.
The Bible says the HS indwells us and seals us AFTER we believe.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, *after* that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also *after* that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
NO mention of works.
What does the Bible say faith is? Heb 11:1 Now faith is the substance of things hopes for, the evidence of things unseen. Substance & evidence are nouns, therefore, faith is a noun, not a verb. Stop backloading works to the Gospel of grace.
Revelation 3:11 is a clear disproof of OSAS.
"11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."
Hi Runningman. Well, if every child was filled with the Holy Spirit, then why would Angel Gabriel specifically say that John about the Baptist? Imo, that was a special privilege for John the Baptist, because of his calling/vocation to be Prophet and the Precursor of the Lord etc. The Lord said, when we are born of flesh, we are born of flesh, until we are born of Spirit, when we become filled with His Spirit imo. God Bless.
"11 Behold, I come quickly: hold that fast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown."
Hi Runningman. Well, if every child was filled with the Holy Spirit, then why would Angel Gabriel specifically say that John about the Baptist? Imo, that was a special privilege for John the Baptist, because of his calling/vocation to be Prophet and the Precursor of the Lord etc. The Lord said, when we are born of flesh, we are born of flesh, until we are born of Spirit, when we become filled with His Spirit imo. God Bless.
In adam is in adam, Adam is the head. so what happened to adam, happened to you. When he sinned, you sinned.
We do not have to sin to be in adam, we are born in adam.
The bible does not tell you to sin so you can be in adam, The only thing the bible tells you to do is to be born again. because we are dea. why? we are in adam..
We do not have to sin to be in adam, we are born in adam.
The bible does not tell you to sin so you can be in adam, The only thing the bible tells you to do is to be born again. because we are dea. why? we are in adam..
In chapter 1 he did not. He wrote to his nation. Not all of them were saved
Does not matter, the context and the people are the first words James spoke. Not a few chapters later.'
Your wrong. He is talking the people who were hears and not doers who had no works. He asked them specifically. CAN THIS FAITH SAVE YOU?? Its about salvation
Wrong. I make them accompliment each other
Paul said we are saved by grace through faith NOT WORKS. but those who are saved WILL WORK the works of God they were created anew to do. Paul was speaking to legalists who wanted to add works to salvation.
On the other hand, James spoke to licentious, belief only people who thought they were saved because they had mere belief (even demons believe....) And he told them to examin themselves, and like abraham (who was saved decades before he offered his son) to prove your true faith by your works.
what is the thing hoped for? Eternal life. eternity in heaven, salvation.
the people james spoke to did not have t6his hope. because they did not repent. they had belief only
true faith produces work.. false faith may or man not.. (legalism vs licentiousness)
Does not matter, the context and the people are the first words James spoke. Not a few chapters later.'
Your wrong. He is talking the people who were hears and not doers who had no works. He asked them specifically. CAN THIS FAITH SAVE YOU?? Its about salvation
Wrong. I make them accompliment each other
Paul said we are saved by grace through faith NOT WORKS. but those who are saved WILL WORK the works of God they were created anew to do. Paul was speaking to legalists who wanted to add works to salvation.
On the other hand, James spoke to licentious, belief only people who thought they were saved because they had mere belief (even demons believe....) And he told them to examin themselves, and like abraham (who was saved decades before he offered his son) to prove your true faith by your works.
what is the thing hoped for? Eternal life. eternity in heaven, salvation.
the people james spoke to did not have t6his hope. because they did not repent. they had belief only
true faith produces work.. false faith may or man not.. (legalism vs licentiousness)
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Nope.
I wasn't born in Adam. Show me a verse that proves otherwise.
Was John the Baptist born in Adam or born already born again? You tell me .
Luke 1
15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He shall never take wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb.
I wasn't born in Adam. Show me a verse that proves otherwise.
Was John the Baptist born in Adam or born already born again? You tell me .
Luke 1
15for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He shall never take wine or strong drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from his mother’s womb.
Your options are called a false dichotomy and it's a logical fallacy because you aren't understanding what you're reading.
Romans 11 plainly contradicts your belief that Israel has been cut off; Paul said that God has not rejected His people. All people, whether Jew or Gentile, regardless of race, ethnicity, or sex can come to be in Christ, cut off, or grafted in again.
This occurs on an individual basis.
Entire nations don't have their path to salvation "cut off." That's completely antithetical to the Bible.
Read Romans 11 a few times. Slowly. Good luck Mr. Everlasting Grace.
Romans 11 plainly contradicts your belief that Israel has been cut off; Paul said that God has not rejected His people. All people, whether Jew or Gentile, regardless of race, ethnicity, or sex can come to be in Christ, cut off, or grafted in again.
This occurs on an individual basis.
Entire nations don't have their path to salvation "cut off." That's completely antithetical to the Bible.
Read Romans 11 a few times. Slowly. Good luck Mr. Everlasting Grace.
Good question Xavier and by the way I love reading your posts. I see that we seem to agree on maybe 99% of everything. Do you mind if I send you a direct message? I have a question about some advice I'm seeking.
To answer your question, I suggest let's look at what state people in general are born in. Are they born depraved and is their evidence for this? What baby is born spouting lies, plotting adulteries, thefts, etc? And didn't Jesus take a child and say that the kingdom of heaven belongs to such people as them?
I would say that all of the verses about the wicked being under God's judgement refer to those who have reached what some theologians call the "age of accountability." That's when someone can become aware of their sin. This is not to say that all babies were born with the Holy Spirit like John the Baptist was, but I don't believe people are born under condemnation.
Anyway, this topic isn't entirely on topic with the thread and it got brought up by someone who isn't participating in this thread anymore. It doesn't really effect the invalidity of the OSAS anyway.
To answer your question, I suggest let's look at what state people in general are born in. Are they born depraved and is their evidence for this? What baby is born spouting lies, plotting adulteries, thefts, etc? And didn't Jesus take a child and say that the kingdom of heaven belongs to such people as them?
I would say that all of the verses about the wicked being under God's judgement refer to those who have reached what some theologians call the "age of accountability." That's when someone can become aware of their sin. This is not to say that all babies were born with the Holy Spirit like John the Baptist was, but I don't believe people are born under condemnation.
Anyway, this topic isn't entirely on topic with the thread and it got brought up by someone who isn't participating in this thread anymore. It doesn't really effect the invalidity of the OSAS anyway.
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lol.. Not it does not. because Israel in the context of romans 11 is not the nation or organization that is preaching Gods word. That job had been given to the gentile church, as was prophesied. But God is not done, they will be saved and restored.
they as a nation do not have to be restored if they are not cut off.
Your reading it to fit your belief. not to make your belief fit the word.
they as a nation do not have to be restored if they are not cut off.
Your reading it to fit your belief. not to make your belief fit the word.
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IF OSAS is true - that once you receive the Holy Spirit, you can never lose Him - then in fact John the Baptist didn't need to do anything to be saved - according to OSAS. According to the other perspective, children need to consciously believe in Jesus Christ when they come of age. Those who believe in infant baptism, as I do, believe babies receive the Holy Spirit when they are baptized, as children, by the faith of their parents, just like the faith of their parents was accepted for circumcision. However, when children come of age, they have to accept Jesus as their personal Savior, and if they refuse to, they lose the Holy Spirit.
Acts 2:38 "Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off—for all whom the Lord our God will call.”
The Gift or Promise of the Holy Spirit through Baptism is for adults and children alike. If no one could ever lose the Holy Spirit after receiving Him -if that were really true - then all the baptized would be saved.
The Gift or Promise of the Holy Spirit through Baptism is for adults and children alike. If no one could ever lose the Holy Spirit after receiving Him -if that were really true - then all the baptized would be saved.