Struggling reading through romans 8 & 9 and Calvinism.

[cv5]

God changed Jacob's name to be no more called Jacob, but to be called Israel (Gen 32:28). Jacob, as Israel represents all of God's elect people (Rom 9:11) from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation (Rev 5:9).

Eze 37:11
Then he said unto me, Son of man, these bones are the whole house of Israel: behold, they say, Our bones are dried, and our hope is lost: we are cut off for our parts.

Eze 37:12
Therefore prophesy and say unto them, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, O my people, I will open your graves, and cause you to come up out of your graves, and bring you into the land of Israel.

Eze 37:13
And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves, O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

Eze 37:14
And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land: then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.

 

[John146]

With all due respect, are you considering that the Greek interpretation of the word "save" means "deliver"? Receiving the word can deliver the born again child of God as he sojourns here in this world.

This is the reason so many of God's, well intended, children, are believing that the scriptures are teaching them that mankind has to do some works to gain eternal deliverance. The scriptures do teach that works are required, for the born again child of God, to walk with God, as he sojourns here on earth, if they rightly divide the salvation (deliverance) scriptures.

Deliver the soul...save the soul...

 

[John146]

These were instructions to children of God, at that particular time.

And Paul's letters are to the church, the body of Christ, mainly Gentiles.

 

[Jocund]

And Paul's letters are to the church, the body of Christ, mainly Gentiles.

The Bible is also an open message to all that hear the calling.

 

[cv5]

BTW.....Israel the Nation has their own guardian angel, an archangel in fact. The only archangel so noted in Scripture...

Dan 10:13
But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Dan 10:21
But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but Michael your prince.

Dan 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.

 

[wattie]

The more I read the more I lean towards Calvinism. I can’t wrap my head around it. Wouldn’t our choice to believe be a work? where does free will come in and what does the Bible say about it?? Any help is appreciated

Belief in Jesus is not a work. Jesus convicts a sinner, draws them first, then the sinner responds by believing Jesus died and rose again, that He is God, and lived sinless. Entrusting their salvation with Him.

Not 'reducing sin in their life' and then they get saved. But Romans 10, John 3:16, 5:24, 3:36 etc etc

Jesus convicting and saving someone as they are. Worts and all.

All the sinner is doing is responding to conviction on their heart. Its not a work.

Calvinism has salvation before belief, which I find no where in scripture.

Predestination is about heaven being the pre set destiny for someone who believes in Jesus. Also it is about the pre set establishment of God's churches for believers to join. These believers in churches also having a preset destiny.

Just because God knows what we will do.. doesn't mean we have no choice to believe.

A dad might know his daughter is going to hurt her fingers learning to sow. Doesn't mean he is controlling the fingers.

 

[Chester]

If you are struggling with Romans 9, one of the best and most direct answers to the Calvinistic questions of this chapter are answered in the book: The Potter's Promise - by Leighton Flowers. The author was a die-hard Calvinistic who left Calvinism from studying this passage (and others).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

You are going to have to argue that the following IS NOT true:

-that had a theocratic law given to the people by God thru Moses that was national in scope
- the Israel was indeed a unique, identifiable Nation under their king David
-who had as their capitol Jerusalem (chosen by God)
-where the Temple was located, the pattern of which was given to David by God Himself
-which was a theocracy predicated on covenants given to Abraham, David and Levi,
which will perpetuate into the future not yet seen
-that Israel the Nation, (including King David himself) had/has massive amounts of prophecy, much of which has yet to be fulfilled

You will need to argue that ALL OF THIS (pertaining to National Israel) is an anomaly, is a work of the flesh, and was/is not actually part of God's overall plan.

Which of course....is utterly absurd.

I only respond to comments that have scripture quotes to back them up.

 

[ForestGreenCook]

All the sinner is doing is responding to conviction on their heart. Its not a work.

God's grace is not free if works are required. Scriptures will not harmonize in agreement with that assumption. (Rom 9:11) (1 Cor 2:14) (Eph 2:1-5). (Eph 2:8-9).(Rom 8:7).

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Calvinism has salvation before belief, which I find no where in scripture.

Eph 2:1-5, Rom 9:11, Rom 8:7,

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Not 'reducing sin in their life' and then they get saved. But Romans 10, John 3:16, 5:24, 3:36 etc etc

Rom 10 - Israel in verse one is not the nation of Israel, but is Jacob, as Israel. God changed Jacob's name to be Israel (Gen 32:28). Jacob/Israel is representative of all of God's elect (Rom 9:11) who are people from every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation (Rev 5:9).

The people that Paul was praying for in Rom 10, were born again, lost sheep of the house of Jacob/Israel, who were going about depending upon the works of the law to save (deliver) them eternally, having a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge of God's righteousness in what his Son accomplished on the cross.

There is a remnant of the house of Israel/Jacob that have been revealed that knowledge, by the revelation of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

 

[smmartin0507]

Jhn 10:26
But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

Both God's election and man's choice are Biblical. That's just the way it is.....

I think I am understanding this way as well. We are still responsible for our choice. There are too many passages that show that, but we can not come to the father unless he draws us. We are dead in our sins and need him to call us to him. It is not easy to understand, but our minds will never be able to fully understand until he returns for us and we get to see him just as he is.

What I do know for sure is that I am 100% undeserving of the grace He gives.. and it's grace upon grace I have been given. He knows we can't do it on our own. "For he knows our frame, he remembers that we are dust. "

 

[wattie]

I think I am understanding this way as well. We are still responsible for our choice. There are too many passages that show that, but we can not come to the father unless he draws us. We are dead in our sins and need him to call us to him. It is not easy to understand, but our minds will never be able to fully understand until he returns for us and we get to see him just as he is.

What I do know for sure is that I am 100% undeserving of the grace He gives.. and it's grace upon grace I have been given. He knows we can't do it on our own. "For he knows our frame, he remembers that we are dust. "

Yeah.. nothing redemptive about just being human.. we aren't 'little gods'.

What was that quote I heard..' a sinner trying to earn their way to heaven is like putting perfume on a corpse'

I think that was from a christian rapper.. but I'm not sure.

 

[smmartin0507]

Yeah.. nothing redemptive about just being human.. we aren't 'little gods'.

What was that quote I heard..' a sinner trying to earn their way to heaven is like putting perfume on a corpse'

I think that was from a christian rapper.. but I'm not sure.

haven't heard that one before -I have heard Steven Lawson say "What can a dead man do, but stink. "

 

[ForestGreenCook]

Just because God knows what we will do.. doesn't mean we have no choice to believe.

God gave mankind the freedom to choose how he wants to live his life here in this world, but eternal deliverance is by God's sovereign grace, without mankind's choice. Mankind choose not to seek God.

The natural man cannot believe in the things of the Spirit, (1 Cor 2:14), until God quickens him to a new spiritual life.(Eph 2:1-5).

 

[Cameron143]

Belief in Jesus is not a work. Jesus convicts a sinner, draws them first, then the sinner responds by believing Jesus died and rose again, that He is God, and lived sinless. Entrusting their salvation with Him.

Not 'reducing sin in their life' and then they get saved. But Romans 10, John 3:16, 5:24, 3:36 etc etc

Jesus convicting and saving someone as they are. Worts and all.

All the sinner is doing is responding to conviction on their heart. Its not a work.

Calvinism has salvation before belief, which I find no where in scripture.

Predestination is about heaven being the pre set destiny for someone who believes in Jesus. Also it is about the pre set establishment of God's churches for believers to join. These believers in churches also having a preset destiny.

Just because God knows what we will do.. doesn't mean we have no choice to believe.

A dad might know his daughter is going to hurt her fingers learning to sow. Doesn't mean he is controlling the fingers.

They actually have regeneration before salvation.
I'm not advocating for or against calvinism, but I'm amazed that so many against Calvinism are errant in their understanding of it.

 

[cv5]

I only respond to comments that have scripture quotes to back them up.

OK.....here you go. Not if, but when.

Act 1:6
When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

 

[MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE]

[God shows mercy to whom He shows mercy.]

God shows mercy to those who repent. Read the entire passage in context and recognize that Paul was quoting scripture from Exodus where God showed mercy to those who didn't bow the knee to the false idol they had made with their own hands (See the full dialog in Exo. 32-34)

Exodus 32:32–33 (NASB95)
32 “But now, if You will, forgive their sin—and if not, please blot me out from Your book which You have written!”
33 The Lord said to Moses, “Whoever has sinned against Me, I will blot him out of My book.

[He takes sides against the devil and legion. God is not indifferent.]

God never takes sides. We are the ones who must take His side at all times for He changes not (Mal. 3:6). I offered scriptures that prove that God does not show partiality to anyone, but you conveniently ignored them. Here is a list of scriptures throughout the Bible where God shows He is not a respecter of persons (Deut 10:17; 2 Chr 19:7; Acts 10:34; Rom 2:11; Gal 2:6; Eph 6:9; Col 3:25; 1 Pet 1:17)

[No. God removed Paraoh's freewill by hardening his heart.

"And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the Lord had said." - Exodus 7:13 KJV]

Your interpretation lacks understanding, God did not remove Pharaoh's free will; He just gave Pharaoh what he wanted all along because Pharaoh had first hardened his own heart against God and willed to say no to Him out of sheer rebellion and pride.

[No. I think you are confused by the nuances of the Euthyphro dilemma. And from there you don't understand how to apply it to the determinism vs. free will dilemma.]

I have no idea what you are talking about. Please adhere to the scriptures only.

[No. Read Romans 7.]

I have read the entire Bible several times, Romans 7 included. It is you who needs to do a search in the NT and search for "sinful nature." IT IS NOT THERE! Romans 7 says nothing about having a sinful nature therefore your entire Calvinistic false beliefs fall apart at the seams.

 

[MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE]

They actually have regeneration before salvation.
I'm not advocating for or against calvinism, but I'm amazed that so many against Calvinism are errant in their understanding of it.

Faith always comes before regeneration. Reformed people (Calvinists) are gravely mistaken. I am advocating against Calvinism because Calvinism is HERESY. 👍

 

[oyster67]

Both God's election and man's choice are Biblical. That's just the way it is.....

...and I'm sure you will agree that they are not contradictory terms. Those who God foreknew to have humble and contrite hearts have been predestined and elected. That is the Church.

1 Peter 1:2
“Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.”