Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Mem]

They don't answer the question in my opinion, but thanks for sharing. I do always enjoy reading the Bible.

So I guess there's nothing about people being born lost? So my original assertion was correct?

A declaration of innocence doesn't necessarily imply purity. Let's look at the evidence...

Though babies see the faces of angels, who knows if they still do not endure the struggle between flesh and spirit.

 

[Mem]

While it is true that Jesus called Judas a devil, being a devil doesn't rule out belief. As the saying goes, "even the devils believe and tremble." So what I think Peter meant was that he and the other 11, Judas included, believe that Jesus is the Son of God. There's no record of Jesus confirming or denying what Peter said, likely because Peter was correct having known Judas personally.

I think there is a distinction between belief in His existence and faith in His character that would apply here.

 

[Runningman]

A declaration of innocence doesn't necessarily imply purity. Let's look at the evidence...

Though babies see the faces of angels, who knows if they still do not endure the struggle between flesh and spirit.

That meme settles everything.

 

[Runningman]

I think there is a distinction between belief in His existence and faith in His character that would apply here.

Agreed, and Judas left everything to follow Jesus around or three years. That's faith in the character of Jesus. Judas could have left at any time like many others did. What motivated Judas wasn't a life of luxury or power, but rather it was being a follower of Jesus... at first! The whole point of this is who Judas started out as and who he became later as the story develops.

The big question is was Judas once saved always saved or did he lose his salvation? Some contend he was never a believer, but scripture shows otherwise.

 

[Mem]

That meme settles everything.

j/s. Though they are faithfully fed every two hours, it seems either they still lack faith they will be provided for in the next hour or they'd demand it be sooner as they'd will.

 

[Runningman]

j/s. Though they are faithfully fed every two hours, it seems either they still lack faith they will be provided for in the next hour or they'd demand it be sooner as they'd will.

I think the longest I went without food on a regular basis was about 5 days at a time. That baby doesn't look like he/she is in poverty though.

 

[Mem]

Agreed, and Judas left everything to follow Jesus around or three years. That's faith in the character of Jesus. Judas could have left at any time like many others did. What motivated Judas wasn't a life of luxury or power, but rather it was being a follower of Jesus... at first! The whole point of this is who Judas started out as and who he became later as the story develops.

The big question is was Judas once saved always saved or did he lose his salvation? Some contend he was never a believer, but scripture shows otherwise.

I'm not completely convinced of that but, at any rate, Judas is an example of worldly sorrow that leads to death while Peter is an example of godly sorrow that leads to repentance.

 

[Runningman]

I'm not completely convinced of that but, at any rate, Judas is an example of worldly sorrow that leads to death while Peter is an example of godly sorrow that leads to repentance.

Okay, then how is Judas' repentance about being instrumental in the crucifixion of Jesus different from others' repentance about being instrumental in the crucifixion of Jesus? You're saying Judas' sorrow led to death, but why did others' sorrow over the same thing lead to life?

Judas repents:
Matthew 27
3When Judas, who had betrayed him, saw that Jesus was condemned, he was seized with remorse and returned the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and the elders. 4“I have sinned,” he said, “for I have betrayed innocent blood.”

These other people repent:
Acts 2
36“Therefore let all Israel be assured of this: God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Messiah.”
37When the people heard this, they were cut to the heart and said to Peter and the other apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?”
38Peter replied, “Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

 

[cv5]

People are born of the natural world and need to be reborn to the spiritual.

But according to Runningman, people are born already saved.

He is so deceived he believes that Scripture teaches this

So what is this that RM is asserting now?

That people are born saved, lose their salvation somewhere along the line, find Jesus, get it back, and then lose it again.....???

And Judas was as saved as anybody ever was, and never lost it, but others do?

 

[Runningman]

So what is this that RM is asserting now?

That people are born saved, lose their salvation somewhere along the line, find Jesus, get it back, and then lose it again.....???

And Judas was as saved as anybody ever was, and never lost it, but others do?

She's being dishonest, to put it lightly. I never said or asserted any such thing. There's no comment to quote about it either.

 

[Mem]

Okay, then how is Judas' repentance about being instrumental in the crucifixion of Jesus different from others' repentance about being instrumental in the crucifixion of Jesus? You're saying Judas' sorrow led to death, but why did others' sorrow over the same thing lead to life?

While others experience guilt that leads to repentance, being Christ focused but Judas' remorse is an experience of shame, which is self-focused. Although the same statement is central, "I have sinned against Him..." the emphasis is the distinction between "I," which generates shame (i.e., I can never forgive myself) and "Him," which generates a remembrance of His character. that He is merciful to forgive.

 

[Runningman]

While others experience guilt that leads to repentance, being Christ focused but Judas' remorse is an experience of shame, which is self-focused. Although the same statement is central, "I have sinned against Him..." the emphasis is the distinction between "I," which generates shame (i.e., I can never forgive myself) and "Him," which generates a remembrance of His character. that He is merciful to forgive.

Both parties betrayed Jesus, but in Acts 2 Paul told them they had literally murdered Jesus via crucifixion and needed to repent. Judas repented for betraying innocent blood via sin confession and retuning the money. That demonstrates a change of heart that leads to actions.

I don't think there is any distinction between between the repentance in Matt 27 and Acts 2. Either both were forgiven because of their repentance of getting Jesus crucified or they weren't. There is no double standard on this.

 

[Mem]

Both parties betrayed Jesus, but in Acts 2 Paul told them they had literally murdered Jesus via crucifixion and needed to repent. Judas repented for betraying innocent blood via sin confession and retuning the money. That demonstrates a change of heart that leads to actions.

I don't think there is any distinction between between the repentance in Matt 27 and Acts 2. Either both were forgiven because of their repentance of getting Jesus crucified or they weren't. There is no double standard on this.

Judas did all that and then killed himself, we can only speculate why, but he despaired of the possibility of restoration. Did he fear God's judgment, for fear hath torment? But he didn't make that connection that Peter did, trusting in Jesus' love and forgiveness to carry on even in the troubles of life.

 

[Runningman]

Judas did all that and then killed himself, we can only speculate why, but he despaired of the possibility of restoration. Did he fear God's judgment, for fear hath torment? But he didn't make that connection that Peter did, trusting in Jesus' love and forgiveness to carry on even in the troubles of life.

Which is why in the end Judas mostly likely lost his salvation. I know people here are still saying Judas was always an unbeliever and never saved, but that's just an opinion. If we remain purely scriptural, that opinion is not supported by scripture. The evidence is Judas had spiritual gifts that only a believer can get and was at one point told they would sit on 12 thrones, one throne per disciple, and inherit eternal life. This debunks OSAS completely, imo.

Of course, we should always defer all judgement to God. I just know what I am seeing in the New Testament and I'm sticking with it unless I see evidence to the contrary. This is scholarly to me. I can and do change my position frequently depending on what I learn.

 

[Mem]

Which is why in the end Judas mostly likely lost his salvation. I know people here are still saying Judas was always an unbeliever and never saved, but that's just an opinion. If we remain purely scriptural, that opinion is not supported by scripture. The evidence is Judas had spiritual gifts that only a believer can get and was at one point told they would sit on 12 thrones, one throne per disciple, and inherit eternal life. This debunks OSAS completely, imo.

Of course, we should always defer all judgement to God. I just know what I am seeing in the New Testament and I'm sticking with it unless I see evidence to the contrary. This is scholarly to me. I can and do change my position frequently depending on what I learn.

I can only say that may be. However, as scripture says of once tasting... it is impossible to bring back to repentance..." I can't see how that, if Judas had ever tasted the heavenly gift, he could have forgotten it's flavor.

 

[Runningman]

I can only say that may be. However, as scripture says of once tasting... it is impossible to bring back to repentance..." I can't see how that, if Judas had ever tasted the heavenly gift, he could have forgotten it's flavor.

I normally interpret that Hebrews 6 passage you're referring to for people who were not present with Jesus (people alive today), but Judas was present so I think it applies differently. If so, it seems that passage talks about Judas loosing his salvation. It doesn't point-blank say that, but it seems implied in verse 9

9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation.

 

[Mem]

I normally interpret that Hebrews 6 passage you're referring to for people who were not present with Jesus (people alive today), but Judas was present so I think it applies differently. If so, it seems that passage talks about Judas loosing his salvation. It doesn't point-blank say that, but it seems implied in verse 9

9Even though we speak like this, dear friends, we are convinced of better things in your case—the things that have to do with salvation.

I've gathered you've read it as so, although you noted Judas' repentance, but I think the crux of the passages hinges on the "IF" which presents the statement in a hypothetical construct rather than any actually possible scenario, and this would be consistent with a contrast that would support a recommendation of salvation. That is, they'd rather speak of the possibilities than the obstacles that, not might but would surely, present themselves endeavoring to impede an individual's faith.

 

[Beckie]

The way I understand Romans 5:8-12 is that sin brought spiritual death for those who sinned. Physical death, a loss of the ability to have immortality, came from losing access to the tree of life. I don’t see how we inherit Adam and Eve’s sin, but we can feel the earthly consequences of their sin.

Perhaps a better question is what sin does someone have when they’re born?

Wow this really makes his point clear. Following this line of thinking could well bring man to the idea we dont need God. Need God for what? just live a nice life. wow how sad for one who in some way is willing to label himself as Christian.

 

[Runningman]

I've gathered you've read it as so, although you noted Judas' repentance, but I think the crux of the passages hinges on the "IF" which presents the statement in a hypothetical construct rather than any actually possible scenario, and this would be consistent with a contrast that would support a recommendation of salvation. That is, they'd rather speak of the possibilities than the obstacles that, not might but would surely, present themselves endeavoring to impede an individual's faith.

Right, so it’s possibly a hypothetical scenario given the broader context about animal sacrifices. Hence why the author says “crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting Him to open shame.” Which is impossible to do because Jesus isn’t crucified again and again, but animals were sacrificed repeatedly. Jesus was sacrificed one time.

 

[Runningman]

Wow this really makes his point clear. Following this line of thinking could well bring man to the idea we dont need God. Need God for what? just live a nice life.

It’s sad that those are your thoughts, not mine.

wow how sad for one who in some way is willing to label himself as Christian.

I am a Christian, but it seems your conclusion is I’m in error for labeling myself as such. Do you propose I no longer be a Christian? If yes, that’s the anti-Christ spirit coming from you.

Next, let’s get down to business. Sins are not inherited. Cain and Abel did not inherit Adam and Eve’s sin nor were guilty of eating from the TOTKOGAE. Meaning, when Cain and Abel were born, they didn’t have their parents’ sin upon them.

Now read this:

Ezekiel 18
20The soul who sins is the one who will die. A son will not bear the iniquity of his father, and a father will not bear the iniquity of his son. The righteousness of the righteous man will fall upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked man will fall upon him.

Now you put scripture down. Show me where someone is born lost.