How many People Think the Jews Could Be Wrong?

cv5 · Nov 13, 2022

Eze 37:26
Moreover I will make a covenant of peace with them; it shall be an everlasting covenant with them: and I will place them, and multiply them, and will set my sanctuary in the midst of them for evermore.

Like multiply them the old-fashioned way. Christians these are NOT. Contrary to the opinions of the replacement theology nutters.

Lanolin · Nov 13, 2022

ok can someone clearly say what will happen...confused now

How many temples and comings and goings are there gonna be...this is getting ridiculous.

Isnt the 144,000 going to be from the tribes of Israel...not JUST the Jewish tribe (from Judah) ..all the 12 tribes are listed. But they wont be gentiles. Gentiles are not from Israel anyway. Obvs. Gentiles are grafted in.

cv5 · Nov 13, 2022

Lanolin said:

-tribulation temple (future but temporary)
-millennial temple (after the trib temple)

-144,000 are definitely Israelites, the ethnic offspring of Jacob

-Church gets raptured BEFORE the 70th week aka tribulation begins.
-there are only UNBELIEVING gentiles and jews remaining on the earth at the point of the rapture.

-gentiles become believers DURING the tribulation (many are killed)....aka tribulation saints (those who die are a different category of the "first resurrection")
-Israelites become believers DURING the tribulation......inherit the land forever.

-some of both gentile believers AND Israelites survive the tribulation. They repopulate the earth during the millennial reign.

-then comes the final rebellion and final war at the end of the millennium. GWT judgement. Then comes the new heaven and new earth.

That is a very compressed sequence.....there is much much more that could be said.

Jocund · Nov 13, 2022

Lanolin said:

It depends if you are looking at Revelation as a collection of metaphor and prophetic dream imagery (such as the book of Daniel and others that it alludes to), or whether you interpret it as a literal account.

There could be a number of interpretations for 'why' it takes place, we just have to make sure our interpretations are consistent with scripture. Some things in revelation were intended to remain a mystery (e.g. seven thunders), it can make sense that we aren't intended to have a definitive answer about how to interpret different aspects of Revelation, including the 1000 year kingdom.

Lanolin said:

The passages attributed to rapture are often just talking about going "in cloud" with the resurrected to Christ on His second coming. It isn't necessarily talking about a rescue from danger up to heaven or anywhere higher than a few feet off the ground. There is a reason that rapture theory only appeared recently in the last few centuries instead of in the early Church.

An earthly temple? From a Christian perspective, none. From a Talmudic perspective (Dispensationalism and Talmudic Judaism), an earthly temple is required to be built prior to the coming of the messiah they look forward to. It's so that Talmudic Jews can enslave the world with unchallenged brutality. The Dispensationalist modification to that religion just includes a nonJewish group that are 'raptured' out of play prior to enslavement.

I agree that Revelation doesn't point to an earthly temple.

"Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God" - Rev 3:12a KJV (the temple is made of people)

"And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them." - Rev 7:14-15 KJV (talking about the 144k and multitude, meaning they are clearly Christian by 'putting on Christ' with the blood of the lamb)

"And the temple of God was opened in heaven" - Rev 11:19a KJV (the temple is in heaven)

"And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven" - Rev 14:17a KJV (the temple is in heaven)

"and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven" - Rev 16:17b KJV

These are just examples but all of the references strongly appear to be talking about a heavenly temple or people that form a temple. There does not appear to be a single Revelation 'temple' reference that discusses an earthly temple.

DavidTree · Nov 13, 2022

Lanolin said:

You said: " But they wont be gentiles."

Why would you believe this???

Revelation is not focused on earthbound Israel( see Galatians chapters 3 &4) but on the Israel of God = which is Born of the Spirit of God.

Please ground your mind so that it RESTS upon YESHUA HaMoshiach and the Truth of the NEW Covenant that was Purchased with HIS Blood.

Revelation is not governed by the OT which has passed away.

Peace

DavidTree · Nov 13, 2022

cv5 said:

-tribulation temple (future but temporary)
-millennial temple (after the trib temple)

-144,000 are definitely Israelites, the ethnic offspring of Jacob

-Church gets raptured BEFORE the 70th week aka tribulation begins.
-there are only UNBELIEVING gentiles and jews remaining on the earth at the point of the rapture.

-gentiles become believers DURING the tribulation (many are killed)....aka tribulation saints (those who die are a different category of the "first resurrection")
-Israelites become believers DURING the tribulation......inherit the land forever.

-some of both gentile believers AND Israelites survive the tribulation. They repopulate the earth during the millennial reign.

-then comes the final rebellion and final war at the end of the millennium. GWT judgement. Then comes the new heaven and new earth.

That is a very compressed sequence.....there is much much more that could be said.

SEE Post #125 for the Truth

Lanolin · Nov 13, 2022

DavidTree said:

er...maybe becasue because Revelation actually says they wont be! Gentiles from every tongue, tribe in a nation are not part of the 144,000, they are the ones the elders say 'who are these'? lol

as far as I know. gentiles arent part of Israels twelves tribes...asher, gad, Simeon, napthali, judah, Levi, etc etc they are grafted in and besides, there are too many of them! Like millions or even billions of souls.

Lanolin · Nov 13, 2022

also scripture clearly states that 144,000 would just be men...so?!

Besides, many arent living in Israel (the land itself) and it would be way too small to fit everyone.

cv5 · Nov 13, 2022

Lanolin said:

Good call. The fact is: whenever individual Israelite tribes are specified, it ALWAYS refers to the ethnic sons of Jacob aka Israelites.

This without exception. A biblical rule that is NEVER violated. For obvious reasons. Like infallible prophetic clarity for example.

VCO · Nov 13, 2022

Locoponydirtman said:

You are missing the Point.

Romans 9:6 (GW)
6 Now it is not as though God's word has failed. Clearly, not everyone descended from Israel is part of Israel

Genesis 45:7 (HCSB)
7 God sent me ahead of you to establish you as a remnant within the land and to keep you alive by a great deliverance.

Not these:

John 8:44-45 (ESV)
44 You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks out of his own character, for he is a liar and the father of lies.
45 But because I tell the truth, you do not believe me.

Not even these Mortals that GOD has chosen for a different Purpose, (probably to repopulate ISRAEL, in the Millennium.)

Revelation 7:2-8 (ESV)
2 Then I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, with the seal of the living God, and he called with a loud voice to the four angels who had been given power to harm earth and sea,
3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.”
4 And I heard the number of the sealed, 144,000, sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel:
5 12,000 from the tribe of Judah were sealed, 12,000 from the tribe of Reuben, 12,000 from the tribe of Gad,
6 12,000 from the tribe of Asher, 12,000 from the tribe of Naphtali, 12,000 from the tribe of Manasseh,
7 12,000 from the tribe of Simeon, 12,000 from the tribe of Levi, 12,000 from the tribe of Issachar,
8 12,000 from the tribe of Zebulun, 12,000 from the tribe of Joseph, 12,000 from the tribe of Benjamin were sealed.

Matthew 16:18 (YLT) {Notice the Young's did not change it from ASSEMBLY, when in about 300, everyone else used Church.}
18 `And I also say to thee, that thou art a rock, and upon this rock I will build my assembly, and gates of Hades shall not prevail against it;

John 10:16 (NRSV)
16 I have other sheep that do not belong to this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd. {At the Rapture, Notice, HOW DO I KNOW? Simple!}

1 Thessalonians 4:16-18 (HCSB)
16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. {O.T. Saints rise first, because genuine believing Messiah Would Come, - Counts.}
17 Then we who are still alive will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air and so we will always be with the Lord.
18 Therefore encourage one another with these words.

Here is the Sum Total of the Church the Other FOLD, including the O.T. Saints. Church was not used when the Bible was Written, HE called us the ASSEMBY, that is N.T. Saints, the SAME THING HE CALLED O.T. Saints. The Rapture gathers us all UP to Heaven. I don't know for sure, but it is likely, we will not be called Church in Heaven, we will be called the ASSEMBLY.

Revelation 7:9-15 (HCSB)
9 After this I looked, and there was a vast multitude from every nation, tribe, people, and language, which no one could number, standing before the throne and before the Lamb. They were robed in white with palm branches in their hands.
10 And they cried out in a loud voice: Salvation belongs to our God, who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!
11 All the angels stood around the throne, the elders, and the four living creatures, and they fell facedown before the throne and worshiped God,
12 saying: Amen! Blessing and glory and wisdom and thanksgiving and honor and power and strength be to our God forever and ever. Amen.
13 Then one of the elders asked me, “Who are these people robed in white, and where did they come from?”
14 I said to him, “Sir, you know.” Then he told me: These are the ones coming out of the great tribulation. They washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
15 For this reason they are before the throne of God, and they serve Him day and night in His sanctuary. The One seated on the throne will shelter them:

rem·nant

NOUN

a small remaining quantity of something.

Pilgrimshope · Nov 13, 2022

pottersclay said:

“Israel is not Israel without a temple.”

Israel isn’t israel without accepting Jesus actually , who is the temple of God and the only way to worship him. It doesn’t require anyone to build a building and make a temple so they can speak with and have a relationship with God

you don’t have to go to Jerusalem to meet with God or belong to him or you don’t have to be born of Israeli flesh d blood to belong to God and be his chosen you have to accept the gospel whether you are isreali blood or gentile blood

You make a great point Without a temple Jerusalem is left desolate without the means of worshipping who reject thier messiah the temple was thier connection to God in the old testsment the place where he met them was in the center of the temple upon the mercy seat it was where the performed every priestly function and was necassary for them to have a relationship with God we don’t need any of that whether we have Israeli blood or gentile blood either way there is no temple service in the New Testament only if you look at this will you see the temple of God now where we worship him

“Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭3:16-17‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the temple was a temporary earthly pattern so God could have a relationship until Christ came and gave us his spirit to dwell in us this fulfills the purpose of the temple Godnis we to come meet the mediator there now he meets us here

“What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? For ye are bought with a price: therefore glorify God in your body, and in your spirit, which are God's.”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭6:19-20‬ ‭

you won’t find that doctrine given in the ot , nor will you find any temple services given in the new terrement to be performed in a man made temple we serve God now because he lives in us and is always ever present with us no matter what building we stand in or what city we live in we don’t need a temple we have become in Christ the temple of the living God that’s what the church is brother

we can’t keep looking at the old things to y we’re only a pattern in Christ is where we find all the reality and eternal things of God

this is israel the elect of God and the hiers of Abraham’s promises

“For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.”
‭‭Galatians‬ ‭3:26-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the Old Testament was a pattern of the true eternal gospel Jesus fulfilled all those needs now we just have to start with Jesus and e gospel we don’t find any building of any temple for God except this building of his true temple

“Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;

and are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; in whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord: in whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭2:19-22‬ ‭KJV‬‬

If you just notice how the Old Testament requires a temple and all those priestly services like animal blood sacrofoced on an altar you can just think ok it must have been a pattern of Jesus shedding his blood upon the altar in heaven before Gods throne

this is the same for the whole Old Testament it’s a pattern even the land of Israel is a pattern of the true promised land

Most would say Israel's land is on this earth Abraham’s inheritance faith tells a different story

“These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭11:13-14, 16‬ ‭KJV‬‬

That city is here it’s not yet in earth

“And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭21:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The earthly isn’t permanent the heavenly is

Jocund · Nov 13, 2022

Lanolin said:

How would you know that the multitude would be entirely composed of 'Gentiles'? (Where is the tribe of Dan?) How are you defining 'Gentile' in this case? Is Timothy a 'Gentile' or a 'Jew'?

If this part of John's vision is symbolic, the "after this I beheld" doesn't necessarily mean that the 144k are standing beside the multitude. The 144k could have transformed into part of the multitude dressed in white. And became indistinguishable from the others ("there is neither Jew nor Gentile").

The 144k would then represent the pre-crucifixion saints, and the multitude would represent the post-crucifixion saints, all of them now having put Christ on.

Lanolin said:

Is a proselyte a 'Jew' or a 'Gentile'?

Lanolin said:

Where does it say that?

Lanolin said:

Who said that part of John the Revelator's vision was taking place on earth?

DavidTree · Nov 13, 2022

Lanolin said:

You said: "Revelation actually says they wont be! Gentiles from every tongue, tribe in a nation are not part of the 144,000,"

Revelation does not say this nor imply this.

"I testify to everyone who hears the words of prophecy in this book: If anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book. And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and the holy city, which are described in this book." - Revelation 22:18

It is ULTRA IMPORTANT that everyone fears the LORD and is 100% committed to obeying His Commandment.

Revelation never separates Jew from Gentile in YESHUA HaMoshiach = never = not once.

Separation of Jew from Gentile in the ONE Body of CHRIST is heresy.

PLEASE read. review and remind yourself of our LORD'S Gospel = the Gospel of John, Acts, Ephesians, Romans and Galatians

Jocund · Nov 13, 2022

VCO said:

Church means assembly. It's the same thing. I don't understand why your kind always try to inject this false meaning that "Church" somehow would only mean an assembly of people of nonJewish heritage. The Christ's 'Church' means all people in Christ irrespective of genetic legacy.

"Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad." - John 8:56 KJV

This includes OT saints such as Abraham that saw Jesus' day and accepted Him.

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." - Mat 16:18 KJV

"Church vs Assembly" What a ridiculous thing to try to split hairs over just to shoehorn a "Jew vs. Gentile" dynamic that is not present in Christian scripture.

PennEd · Nov 13, 2022

cv5 said:

Possibly. But they don’t have to, and prophecy will still coming true with Satan seating himself in the temple which are human beings.

There is no question that will happen.

DavidTree · Nov 13, 2022

Jocund said:

You said: "Church means assembly. It's the same thing"

Dear Brother you bring tears of Holy Spirit JOY to my heart n eyes as few can SEE this from Scripture as religion has cast a covering over this Truth.

AMEN to TRUTH = "Thy Word is TRUTH" - John ch17

arthurfleminger · Nov 13, 2022

Bob-Carabbio said:

In fact, the Jews of Jesus' time couldn't even recognize, in fact they vehemently denied, the presence of God, Jesus, in their midst. They still do to this day, 2,000 years down the road. They view Jesus as being evil, a charlatan, and a liar. Sad commentary but true. And BTW, I don't hate Jews.

cv5 · Nov 13, 2022

PennEd said:

Yes....they have to. There is a literal person (man of sin) who will take residence in a literal building.

Paul is NOT using these terms as a rhetorical device or spiritual teaching. There is nothing to suggest anything less than a literal interpretation.

2Th 2:3
Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

2Th 2:4
Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.

Dan 9:27
And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

And this real living person has a revealed fate. So you would need to sweep massive quantities of the Bible under the rug as a nonsensical figment of addled imaginations. Not only that, you open the door to amillenialism and replacement theology.

Rev 19:20
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Rev 20:10
And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

cv5 · Nov 13, 2022

arthurfleminger said:

There were many many converted Jews post-resurrection. Including many priests and Levites. And there are Jewish converts to this present day.

Branding Israel with perpetual condemnation is folly. And betrays a wrong heart. God loves Israel with an eternal love. In fact Israel will be finally redeemed as a nation at the end of the 70th week.

arthurfleminger · Nov 13, 2022

VCO said:

I will keep this short. It seems to me a LOT of Christians think the JEWS in 1212, could not be wrong about Where the TEMPLE MOUNT should be, and where the Mt. Zion has to be ? ? ? Keep in mind, the were exiled by the ROMANS for over 1000 years.

Here is a drawing that kind of says it all, that I stitched together a lot of it from different other drawings, and added what is obvious in errors due to lack of reading all Historical Documents from Josephus, and combined what with my corrections, in their Drawings, to make it as near to the Truth as I could get it. I did an over four years study on this subject, and know Scripture, and Josephus, and searching the Internet on the history of the ROMAN X Legion, to come up with this conclusion. The JEWS GOT THE TEMPLE MOUNT WRONG ON LOCATION. AND MT. ZION WAS A DIFFERENT MOUTAIN ALL TO GETTER. THE OPHEL IS MT. ZION.

View attachment 245176

See the Covered Walkway above, called a Cloister, on the left end is where Josephus was when he made this notation:

DID YOU NOTICE THAT ON THIS FACT SHEET FROM JOSEPHUS:

QUOTE:
But if we go the other way westward, it began at the same place; and extended through a place called Bethso, to the gate of the Essenes: and after that it went southward: having its bending above the fountain Siloam; where it also bends again towards the east at Solomon’s pool, and reaches as far as a certain place which they called Ophlas [what they called the OPHEL at that time], where it was joined to the eastern cloister of the temple. The second wall took its beginning from that gate which they called Gennath, which belonged to the first wall. It only encompassed the northern quarter of the city, and reached as far as the tower Antonia. - Josephus The Jewish War Book V chapter 4
:END QUOTE.

Josephus, was born 37 AD to Died at 100 AD. He did most of his writing shortly before 70 AD. I consider him to be about the only Eye-Witness we have. After Josephus became a Christian, the Jews called him an EXAGGERATOR.

I see that you are quoting the famed historian Josephus. But, I use caution when quoting from Josephus. He was once a Jewish fighter, against the Romans. Later he became a turncoat and a toadie for the Romans, fully giving his allegiance to them. His writings were written only with the approval of the Romans.

Furthermore, someone posted in this thread that Josepheus converted to Christianity. Not so!!!!!!!!!!! That never happened.

How many People Think the Jews Could Be Wrong?

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