Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Runningman]

So what does this mean for OSAS? It means there’s the possibility of not being OSAS. Many people are trying to show this. Don’t turn a blind eye to this please.

 

[cv5]

Then I’ll just keep stacking up the proof.

Judas did some of the works Jesus had been doing like casting out demons and healing people. Jesus said those kind of works are for those who believe in Him.

John 14
12Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.

1 Corinthians 12
7Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by the same Spirit,9to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,10to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in various tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues. 11All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, who apportions them to each one as He determines.

Jesus knew Judas was not one of His sheep. On the contrary........

Jhn 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Jhn 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

In other words......NOT chosen for salvation from before the foundation of the world.

 

[Runningman]

Jesus knew Judas was not one of His sheep. On the contrary........

Jhn 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Jhn 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

In other words......NOT chosen for salvation from before the foundation of the world.

Seems pretty clear that Judas lost his salvation after having weighed much of the evidences and proofs; Judas was lost. Can't be lost, like a lost sheep, or prodigal son, unless at one point they were not lost.

 

[cv5]

Seems pretty clear that Judas lost his salvation after having weighed much of the evidences and proofs; Judas was lost. Can't be lost, like a lost sheep, or prodigal son, unless at one point they were not lost.

People are born lost bro. Maybe you don't understand this......

 

[Runningman]

People are born lost bro. Maybe you don't understand this......

No bro.

Judas was Jesus' at first. The verse you posted proves that Judas belonged to Jesus but then was lost. This isn't about the birth of Judas, but rather his spiritual status changing to lost.

Jhn 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

 

[cv5]

No bro.

Judas was Jesus' at first. The verse you posted proves that Judas belonged to Jesus but then was lost. This isn't about the birth of Judas, but rather his spiritual status changing to lost.

Jhn 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

There is not one statement by any person in all the Bible that states that Judas was ever saved. At any point. Prophetically he was ALREADY damned. Doomed to be damned in other words.

Pretty sobering stuff really.

 

[Runningman]

There is not one statement by any person in all the Bible that states that Judas was ever saved. At any point. Prophetically he was ALREADY damned. Doomed to be damned in other words.

Pretty sobering stuff really.

Judas was told he will inherit eternal life at one point.

Matthew 19:25-30
25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
27Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”
28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

 

[cv5]

Judas was told he will inherit eternal life at one point.

Matthew 19:25-30
25When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
26Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
27Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”
28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel. 29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life. 30But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.

Eternal life cannot be lost. By definition.

You either have it, and have it forever, or you never had it to begin with.

In fact we have the same eternal life as the risen Christ.

 

[Runningman]

Eternal life cannot be lost. By definition.

You either have it, and have it forever, or you never had it to begin with.

In fact we have the same eternal life as the risen Christ.

Judas didn't have eternal life right then and there, none of the disciples did. Jesus said they will "inherit" eternal life.

Luke 18:29-30 is a parallel of Matthew 19:25-30 and Luke added a bit more information about this inheritance of eternal life:

Luke 18:29-30
29“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

 

[cv5]

Judas didn't have eternal life right then and there, none of the disciples did.

Except the son of perdition. Whom Jesus singled out again and again as a devil, a fraud, a thief and a liar. And so did every writer afterward.

 

[Runningman]

Except the son of perdition. Whom Jesus singled out again and again as a devil, a fraud, a thief and a liar. And so did every writer afterward.

Judas was called a betrayer, a thief, and a devil but he wasn't even called an unbeliever. I proved only believers can get spiritual gifts, but in the end Judas was lost even though he belonged to Jesus at first. He was "The son of perdition."

 

[cv5]

I proved only believers can get spiritual gifts

No you did not. I proved exousia can be GRANTED (by God no less) to any person good or evil, saved or unsaved.

 

[Runningman]

No you did not. I proved exousia can be GRANTED (by God no less) to any person good or evil, saved or unsaved.

The kind of exousia power and/or authority required to drive out demons and heal the sick via the laying on of hands requires belief in Christ as the Messiah. This power is through the Holy Spirit. I’ve proved that. See Matthew 10:1, Mark 16:17,18, and 1 Corinthians 12:7-11.

The kind of exousia power to exercise authority in secular government and judgment in a court of law doesn’t require belief in Christ, such as is the case of Pilate, but God permitted it. The 12 disciples were not given that kind of authority, not yet anyway.

Again, Judas was a believer, at least temporarily, that much is clear.

The point you can’t escape is that Judas had spiritual gifts, unbelievers can’t get those.

 

[Beckie]

Why do some folks believe their personal actions are their salvation? How does giving one's self credit for their salvation glorify God? As if God is not sovereign, or needs our help?

 

[Beckie]

The kind of exousia power and/or authority required to drive out demons and heal the sick via the laying on of hands requires belief in Christ as the Messiah. This power is through the Holy Spirit. I’ve proved that. See Matthew 10:1, Mark 16:17,18, and 1 Corinthians 12:7-11.

The kind of exousia power to exercise authority in secular government and judgment in a court of law doesn’t require belief in Christ, such as is the case of Pilate, but God permitted it. The 12 disciples were not given that kind of authority, not yet anyway.

Again, Judas was a believer, at least temporarily, that much is

On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? ' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness'” (Matthew 7:21-23).

 

[Runningman]

On that day many will say to me, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name? ' And then will I declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness'” (Matthew 7:21-23).

Key phrase “I never knew you…” Jesus knew Judas.

 

[mailmandan]

Jesus knew Judas was not one of His sheep. On the contrary........

Jhn 6:70
Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?

Jhn 17:12
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

In other words......NOT chosen for salvation from before the foundation of the world.

Amen! John 18:9 - that the saying might be fulfilled which He spoke, "Of those whom You gave Me I have lost none." Jesus did not lose Judas. Judas was already lost and Judas was an unbelieving, unclean devil who betrayed Jesus. (John 6:64-71; 13:10-11)

Syllogism

1. All given by the Father to Jesus are kept.
2. Judas was not kept.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father

Or, this way.

1. None of those given to Jesus by the Father will be lost by Jesus.
2. Judas is lost.
3. Judas was not given to Jesus by the Father.

 

[PennEd]

Key phrase “I never knew you…” Jesus knew Judas.

The word “knew” or “know” is the same word used here:

Luke 1:34
New King James Version
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

Mary is using “know” in the sense she never intimately had relations with a man, which is NECESSARY to produce a new life.

Jesus is saying In Matthew 7 that He never made these people that relied on their works, into a new life, or new creation.
How silly to say that the God of the Universe didn’t know (have knowledge about), EVERYTHING about EVERYBODY.

 

[Evmur]

Judas was called a betrayer, a thief, and a devil but he wasn't even called an unbeliever. I proved only believers can get spiritual gifts, but in the end Judas was lost even though he belonged to Jesus at first. He was "The son of perdition."

it's true

there is no evidence Judas ever cast out demons or performed miracles ... that's why they were sent out by twos.

 

[mailmandan]

The word “knew” or “know” is the same word used here:

Luke 1:34
New King James Version
34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”

Mary is using “know” in the sense she never intimately had relations with a man, which is NECESSARY to produce a new life.

Jesus is saying In Matthew 7 that He never made these people that relied on their works, into a new life, or new creation.
How silly to say that the God of the Universe didn’t know (have knowledge about), EVERYTHING about EVERYBODY.

Amen! John 17:3 - And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent (which is an intimate, experiential knowledge, found only in a relationship). The term "know" implies intimate, experiential knowledge, through a relationship with Him and not merely theoretical knowledge.