And the SMOKE of their torment...No eternal damnation for anyone, except the Devil

[MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE]

Well said and thank you for citing the source for that commentary.

When I first started reading the Bible, I was told all unsaved people go to hell eternally so I naively accepted that. So I viewed the Bible through a kind of lens where my assumptions sought confirmation.

I took a break from reading the Bible around 10 years or so, but eventually came back with a fresh pair of eyes and realized a lot of what I thought I knew before was false.

At first I couldn’t believe everything I was seeing, thinking “Wait a minute. John 3:16 actually says that the only ones who get eternal life are those who believe in Jesus and all others perish. That means those in hell don’t have eternal life and therefore aren’t there eternally.”

Like most people seem to do, I rejected what I had just realized and retreated back into my comfort zone. At some point I realized I need to be honest with myself and honest with God about everything I’m finally understanding.

Now that’s how I view the Bible. I really do don’t have a horse in the race about what it says.

The Bible is God’s book and whatever it says should be represented fairly, truthfully, whether people like it or not, even if I’m standing alone, and I often am. None of that phases me and I’ve been blessed tremendously for it.

Yes, LOST PEOPLE are lost forever, and wind up in hell. I don't know who is lying to you, but the truth is that God will execute justice on those who have rejected His Son and His cross that He died to redeem. To believe anything else is to deny that the good news of the gospel, the cross and the justice of God.

John 3:16 is clear my friend. I don't know what part for it you don't get.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

The Greek word apollumi means to destroy, to ruin eternally.

New Testament Usage
The verb apollumi occurs about 90 times in the New Testament, while the cognate noun apōleia (677), “destruction, ruin,” occurs 20 times. These words, together with olethros (3502), are in large measure responsible for conveying the New Testament’s teaching on eternal destruction and ruin. This idea is more fully discussed under the noun apōleia

Thoralf Gilbrant, “Ἀπόλλυμι,” in The New Testament Greek-English Dictionary, The Complete Biblical Library (WORDsearch, 1991).

As a student of God's word for nearly 40 years, I will be happy to respond to any questions you have about this topic. 🤠

 

[MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE]

Your candour is really appreciated.

I'm speaking as a former atheist when I say that when I first opened the Bible looking for 'loopholes' i.e. mistakes/errors to justify my position and conduct which was hedonistic I slammed the book SHUT! on reading about the outcome for drinkers and women chasers. SHUT! Closed Book.........but even atheists have a conscience.....and IF there's NO God....just how on Planet Earth do we humans come to have a conscience? Huh?

So, long story short: after much research into the 'science' which supposedly underpins Darwinian evolution; honest self-examination; and diligent research into the claims for the veracity of the Bible and which of necessity - and very much so in my case - involved the pain of condemnation from the Holy Spirit about my guilt ...the only place I could run to was the Cross and Jesus Christ for mercy and forgiveness and the free gifts of faith, justification, and the slow process of sanctification.

One of my favourite lines is from Charles Haddon Spurgeon - it was reading his sermons and the work of the Holy Spirit that regenerated me is - "it is better to be in the abyss of the Truth than on the summit of falsehood {and foolishness].

Another one from Spurgeon is something to the effect: "That the Most High would sink so low as to become the lowest of the low and despised by men and to die on their behalf could not possibly come from the pen of the most creative poet or imaginative writer and could come only from the Divine Mind."

I will suggest that the way to discern the Truth of the matter is to firstly recognize that whatever view we have on this issue may possibly be due to what we were first ‘taught’ to believe.

Secondly, we may have to consider that that view is possibly incorrect.

Thirdly, we need to recognize that each of us have the tendency to continue to believe what we have first been ‘taught’ on this …and other matters and that even when we examine our belief we tend to look for confirmation of our view.

So, we need to pray in faith to God to give enlightenment. And He will give us wisdom if we pray in faith and His means of providing enlightenment and wisdom is through His Word.

The following article which I have referenced and provided an extract is worth considering in its entirety before making a decision.
https://www.jeremyandchristine.com/articles/eternal.php

CONCLUSION

Support can be found through the Holy Scriptures to back up the case for eternal torture as well as the case for annihilation in Hell. In coming to a conclusion, therefore, one must take this to heart and study all of God's Word to find which model fits best with the overall thrust of Scripture. From my study of the Bible, it seems to say much more about the death of the wicked than about their torture.

Numerous verses use the terminology of life and immortality only when depicting Heaven while reserving words such as death, perishing, and destruction to describe Hell. Furthermore, there is not even one verse in the entire Bible that teaches the supposed "immortality of the soul" doctrine so prevalent in most Christian theology. Instead, it is made very clear that only God has eternal life, and He bestows immortality only to those whom He chooses—not to everyone. In reading the Bible for its plain meaning, there is no reason to feel obligated to believe that human beings will be kept alive in a never-ending, torturous Hell.

I don't know what you mean by eternal torture, God does not torture anybody. As far as the doctrine of annihilation is concerned, I tell you that it is a demonic deception that accuses God of having made the mistake of creating eternal beings that somehow didn't meet His standards and thus He made them "disappear." False.

 

[Runningman]

Yes, LOST PEOPLE are lost forever, and wind up in hell. I don't know who is lying to you, but the truth is that God will execute justice on those who have rejected His Son and His cross that He died to redeem. To believe anything else is to deny that the good news of the gospel, the cross and the justice of God.

John 3:16 is clear my friend. I don't know what part for it you don't get.

John 3:16 “For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life."

The Greek word apollumi means to destroy, to ruin eternally.

New Testament Usage
The verb apollumi occurs about 90 times in the New Testament, while the cognate noun apōleia (677), “destruction, ruin,” occurs 20 times. These words, together with olethros (3502), are in large measure responsible for conveying the New Testament’s teaching on eternal destruction and ruin. This idea is more fully discussed under the noun apōleia

Thoralf Gilbrant, “Ἀπόλλυμι,” in The New Testament Greek-English Dictionary, The Complete Biblical Library (WORDsearch, 1991).

As a student of God's word for nearly 40 years, I will be happy to respond to any questions you have about this topic. 🤠

Thanks, but I have already exhaustively studied eternal conscious torment versus conditional immortality and discussed it for something like 107 pages now. I am not open to changing my belief on this and I don’t see the value in debating it if your pretense is that I’m the one who is deceived.

I’m open to helping you see what the Bible says, but I suspect you aren’t interested in anything other than your firmly-held perspective. 40 years of being in error about anything isn’t easily remedied other than by the one who has an open mind and open heart.

 

[MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE]

Thanks, but I have already exhaustively studied eternal conscious torment versus conditional immortality and discussed it for something like 107 pages now. I am not open to changing my belief on this and I don’t see the value in debating it if your pretense is that I’m the one who is deceived.

I’m open to helping you see what the Bible says, but I suspect you aren’t interested in anything other than your firmly-held perspective. 40 years of being in error about anything isn’t easily remedied other than by the one who has an open mind and open heart.

Thanks, but I have already exhaustively studied eternal conscious torment versus conditional immortality and discussed it for something like 107 pages now. I am not open to changing my belief on this and I don’t see the value in debating it if your pretense is that I’m the one who is deceived.

I’m open to helping you see what the Bible says, but I suspect you aren’t interested in anything other than your firmly-held perspective. 40 years of being in error about anything isn’t easily remedied other than by the one who has an open mind and open heart.

You are not in any position to help me. You are the one who needs help here, not me, therefore just let me tell yu that right off the bat, you have a fundamental problem. I don't need your help because I don't have a screwed-up understanding of God's word, you do. Your problem is that you try to understand God's word and revelation out of your fallen intellect. Having a mere intellect of God's word will take you right out to hell at the end of your life. It is not our brains that need to be saved first, but our souls. The smartest people in the world continue to try to find solutions to the problems that are choking, yet they never get there because they are not looking in the right place: Jesus Christ is the key to life eternal that begins the moment we are born again.

Don't waste your time friend, let God's love envelope you through faith in Christ. The truth will begin to trickle in once you get the mind of Christ (1Cor. 2:16).



You need to discover God's love, God's grace, and God's redemptive power through Jesus Christ.

 

[soberxp]

I think all you have to do is focus on what you know about Jesus. As for whether unbelievers can be saved or not, that's a matter for God to consider. If they are saved, it doesn't matter if you believe in Jesus Christ or not, it doesn't matter if it's unfair.But you need to consider whether God's mercy is honest.

 

[Runningman]

You are not in any position to help me. You are the one who needs help here, not me, therefore just let me tell yu that right off the bat, you have a fundamental problem. I don't need your help because I don't have a screwed-up understanding of God's word, you do. Your problem is that you try to understand God's word and revelation out of your fallen intellect. Having a mere intellect of God's word will take you right out to hell at the end of your life. It is not our brains that need to be saved first, but our souls. The smartest people in the world continue to try to find solutions to the problems that are choking, yet they never get there because they are not looking in the right place: Jesus Christ is the key to life eternal that begins the moment we are born again.

Don't waste your time friend, let God's love envelope you through faith in Christ. The truth will begin to trickle in once you get the mind of Christ (1Cor. 2:16).



You need to discover God's love, God's grace, and God's redemptive power through Jesus Christ.

You seemed to have wasted a comment assigning problems to me that I don’t have. How arrogant. I am a Christian and I already have great faith in Christ.

However, as I suspected, you aren’t open to seeing a different perspective. Also, you have made the error that those who disagree with you are unsaved and going to hell. By that standard of judgement, you’ll need to be 100% perfect. I pity whoever relies on that metric of salvation as you seem to. You need more of my help than you’re capable of admitting right now.

So if you want to discuss the Bible beginning at John 3:16 then I’m game. I’m all for it. Those who don’t believe in God’s Son don’t have eternal life, i.e., they aren’t alive in hell eternally; they perish just like the verse says. Do you agree?

 

[Evmur]

How many times have we heard 'those who are not saved' will suffer ETERNAL TORMENT in the lake of fire? Would you believe that is NOT WRITTEN anywhere? I remember the first time I found out, I WAS angry, upset, incensed. Even people who know NOTHING else, seem to all know that. I was about to learn yet ANOTHER lesson...that 'meat' is so hard to chew sometimes especially when all you know is milk.


Rev 20:10 tells us

And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Hopefully all can agree what we read here is

The Devil has been cast into the lake of fire and brimstone

the lake of fire and brimstone is where the false prophet and the beast were cast.

AND THE DEVIL shall be tormented forever,


Do we know anything else from what is written here? I don't, do you?


When we began to learn the words of God we learned,

Psalm 37:20 But the wicked shall perish, and the enemies of the LORD shall be as the fat of lambs: they shall consume; into smoke shall they consume away.

the wicked PERISH, by being consumed, turned into smoke, ascend up and away

No mention of eternal suffering in the lake of fire.

SO WHERE did it come from?

It didn't come from here
Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,

Revelation 14:10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:

IN the presence of the Lamb and the holy angels, WOULD REQUIRE THEY BE WATCHED FOREVER, if indeed they were to NOT BE CONSUMED but again

Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.


WE know from the PSALM that the wicked perish BY BEING consumed into smoke. Here AGAIN, we are told THE SMOKE of their torment goes up for ever and ever.

Is there ANY CONSCIOUSNESS IN SMOKE? No.


Revelation 20:7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.


So we see SPECIFICALLY who 'for ever and ever, day and night' is referring to. If we go past this and APPLY it to souls, IS THAT GODS TRUTH or our own?

I believe it would be our own because when you combine that information with

Revelation 21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.



Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.

Revelation 21:6 And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

Revelation 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.


I can't find a single verse that states souls themselves will be tormented, just the smoke left from the consuming of them, which ascends up forever.

Have I missed any important SCRIPTURES, anything WRITTEN that changes any of this THAT isn't just conjecture or assumption?

s'no good getting angry, just keep plugging away at what you perceive to be a better gospel than the brimstone and hell fire message.

The gospel is the power of God unto salvation to everyone who believes.

Because I believe in a much, much wider mercy than is generally believed in among Evangelicals I have no problem in preaching that the wicked will be turned into hell ... why should they not? if anyone would object to that warning then let them stop being wicked.

Who is to judge who are the wicked? there can only be one Judge.

I will never point to anyone and say "you are going to hell" never never never.

 

[MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE]

You seemed to have wasted a comment assigning problems to me that I don’t have. How arrogant. I am a Christian and I already have great faith in Christ.

However, as I suspected, you aren’t open to seeing a different perspective. Also, you have made the error that those who disagree with you are unsaved and going to hell. By that standard of judgement, you’ll need to be 100% perfect. I pity whoever relies on that metric of salvation as you seem to. You need more of my help than you’re capable of admitting right now.

So if you want to discuss the Bible beginning at John 3:16 then I’m game. I’m all for it. Those who don’t believe in God’s Son don’t have eternal life, i.e., they aren’t alive in hell eternally; they perish just like the verse says. Do you agree?

I've told you what the word "perish" in the Greek language means. If you deny it's original meaning, I can't help you. Remember that Eph. 2:1-2 where Paul calls people that were breathing and moving as DEAD. They were dead on the inside, therefore when they died without Christ, they were dead twice. The second death is eternal.

Ephesians 2:1-2 (LSB) "And you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience."

Revelation 2:10-11 (MEV) "Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Look, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tried, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death."

Have a nice evening my friend. 🤠

 

[MISSION-IMPOSSIBLE]

I think all you have to do is focus on what you know about Jesus. As for whether unbelievers can be saved or not, that's a matter for God to consider. If they are saved, it doesn't matter if you believe in Jesus Christ or not, it doesn't matter if it's unfair.But you need to consider whether God's mercy is honest.

Unbelievers cannot be saved. Take that to the bank. Jesus did not pay the ultimate price on the cross, so that those who crucified Him and died without repenting, may get an eternal free ride in heaven. 😁

 

[VARob]

I've told you what the word "perish" in the Greek language means. If you deny it's original meaning, I can't help you. Remember that Eph. 2:1-2 where Paul calls people that were breathing and moving as DEAD. They were dead on the inside, therefore when they died without Christ, they were dead twice.

No. The unsaved will all be raised from the dead at the white throne judgment, and THEN they will be thrown into the lake of fire and die the second death.

The second death is eternal.

That's right. There will be no coming back from the second death.

Ephesians 2:1-2 (LSB) "And you were dead in your transgressions and sins, 2 in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the ruler of the power of the air, the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience."

People are born dead in sins, they are not born physically dead. The unsaved will physically die twice.

Revelation 2:10-11 (MEV) "Do not fear any of those things which you are about to suffer. Look, the devil is about to throw some of you into prison, that you may be tried, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful unto death, and I will give you the crown of life.
11 “He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes shall not be hurt by the second death."

The second death is future for ALL the unsaved.

 

[JTB]

I am not open to changing my belief on this .

Truth is only available to those who are willing to question what they think they believe

 

[soberxp]

No. The unsaved will all be raised from the dead at the white throne judgment, and THEN they will be thrown into the lake of fire and die the second death.


That's right. There will be no coming back from the second death.



People are born dead in sins, they are not born physically dead. The unsaved will physically die twice.


The second death is future for ALL the unsaved.

If people don't believe it, the first death is enough, so why the second death?

 

[VARob]

If people don't believe it, the first death is enough, so why the second death?

Everyone will be resurrected. Every knee will bow before Christ (Rom 14:11; Phil 2:10). Unbelievers will know God is real.

Rev 20:
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

 

[soberxp]

Everyone will be resurrected. Every knee will bow before Christ (Rom 14:11; Phil 2:10). Unbelievers will know God is real.

Rev 20:
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

I don't feel unfair or uncomfortable just because unbelievers can be saved. After all, the meaning of life trumps everything else.

Do you not want to believe in Jesus Christ because unbelievers can be saved?

 

[VARob]

I don't feel unfair or uncomfortable just because unbelievers can be saved. After all, the meaning of life trumps everything else.

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean.

Do you not want to believe in Jesus Christ because unbelievers can be saved?

Unbelievers can be saved. They need to decide to believe the gospel for themselves.

 

[soberxp]

Sorry, I'm not sure what you mean.


Unbelievers can be saved. They need to decide to believe the gospel for themselves.

Romans 11
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!


We just need to focus on Jesus Christ and believe in Him.

 

[VARob]

Romans 11
31 Even so have these also now not believed, that through your mercy they also may obtain mercy.
32 For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable are his judgments, and his ways past finding out!

We just need to focus on Jesus Christ and believe in Him.

I hope you're not suggesting that everyone will be saved.

 

[soberxp]

I hope you're not suggesting that everyone will be saved.

The meaning of life for anyone is greater than anything else.
I only know part of it, I don't know all of it.
All I know is that God can indeed save an unbeliever, but I don't know what God's bottom line is, or Does this apply to all people

 

[VARob]

The meaning of life for anyone is greater than anything else.
I only know part of it, I don't know all of it.
All I know is that God can indeed save an unbeliever, but I don't know what God's bottom line is, or Does this apply to all people

God saves unbelievers when they become believers.

 

[soberxp]

God saves unbelievers when they become believers.

When God saves unbelievers and they will become believers.