Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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Judas was with Jesus for about 3 years or so based on estimates. Jesus gave him the best possible teachings about God and the way of righteousness. Jesus washed Judas’ feet, ate with him, lived with him, gave him the power and authority to heal, even told him he’d have eternal life at one point. Judas was acquainted with Jesus in the most possible intimate way, and on top of all of that, Judas was almost certainly a believer. The Bible shows that.
Mark 16:17,18 says that only those who believe can do miracles. I’m not aware of any passage that describes an unbeliever being given gifts of the Holy Spirit. Paul’s writing in 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 corroborates what Jesus said.
To me it looks like Judas possibly lost his salvation, though that isn’t directly said. OSAS adherents have to accept this.
Mark 16:17,18 says that only those who believe can do miracles. I’m not aware of any passage that describes an unbeliever being given gifts of the Holy Spirit. Paul’s writing in 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 corroborates what Jesus said.
To me it looks like Judas possibly lost his salvation, though that isn’t directly said. OSAS adherents have to accept this.
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Healing power is a gift of the Holy Spirit. Paul listed them in 1 Corinthians 12. Judas and the other disciples had the power and authority to heal prior to His death.
God’s Holy Spirit manifests in different ways and different reasons. After His resurrection, on the day of Pentecost, God’s Holy Spirit came upon those people in the upper room and they were filled with the Holy Spirit. There are many examples of a continual or repeated filling of the Holy Spirit. The upper room event was another one of those fillings of the Holy Spirit. Too many to list here and a different topic.
God’s Holy Spirit manifests in different ways and different reasons. After His resurrection, on the day of Pentecost, God’s Holy Spirit came upon those people in the upper room and they were filled with the Holy Spirit. There are many examples of a continual or repeated filling of the Holy Spirit. The upper room event was another one of those fillings of the Holy Spirit. Too many to list here and a different topic.
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Yes, he was, and for those sins of robbery/theft, lying etc, he is probably now in hell. And as for son of perdition, yes, that means the same thing, that he was foreseen by God to go to Hell. But for God to foresee something doesn't mean He causes it. Judas alone caused it by freely choosing his own evil actions, just like all who sadly choose to go to Hell also do so.
Judas imo typifies all the reprobate. Hearing God's Word, but not wanting to believe in and love Christ, to persevere and repent. Easy and simple and full of God's blessings and the Spirit's consolation are the basic things God has asked of us.
If we believe and do them, as the holy Apostles did, we will be saved and gain our Crowns in Heaven. If we do not, but play with our souls and our Salvation like Judas did, by loving money, stealing from the poor etc, then that is very bad imo.
God Bless.
Judas imo typifies all the reprobate. Hearing God's Word, but not wanting to believe in and love Christ, to persevere and repent. Easy and simple and full of God's blessings and the Spirit's consolation are the basic things God has asked of us.
If we believe and do them, as the holy Apostles did, we will be saved and gain our Crowns in Heaven. If we do not, but play with our souls and our Salvation like Judas did, by loving money, stealing from the poor etc, then that is very bad imo.
God Bless.
John 6:64 (KJV)
The words of Jesus should carry a little extra weight, don’t you think?
[64] But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:70-71 (KJV)
[70] Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
[71] He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
The words of Jesus should carry a little extra weight, don’t you think?
[64] But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who should betray him.
John 6:70-71 (KJV)
[70] Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil?
[71] He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
The ones who did not believe were the ones who left Jesus:
John 6
66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
John wrote, by the infallible inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that Peter’s words about Judas were that Judas was among those who believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
John
69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
That means Judas wasn’t called an unbeliever. He was called a betrayer.
A betrayer isn’t necessarily as unbeliever. Peter betrayed Jesus three times through denial.
John 6
66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him.
John wrote, by the infallible inspiration of the Holy Spirit, that Peter’s words about Judas were that Judas was among those who believe Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God.
John
69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.
That means Judas wasn’t called an unbeliever. He was called a betrayer.
A betrayer isn’t necessarily as unbeliever. Peter betrayed Jesus three times through denial.
Jesus gave His disciples spiritual gifts before His crucifixion.
Luke 9:1,2,6,49
1When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
6So they set out and went from village to village, proclaiming the good news and healing people everywhere.
49“Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
Luke 10:1,9
1After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
9Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’
Spiritual gifts are for believers only:
Mark 16
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
That means Judas was a believer, at least at the beginning. Toward the end only God knows. But the point of all of this is what does it mean for OSAS?
Luke 9:1,2,6,49
1When Jesus had called the Twelve together, he gave them power and authority to drive out all demons and to cure diseases, 2and he sent them out to proclaim the kingdom of God and to heal the sick.
6So they set out and went from village to village, proclaiming the good news and healing people everywhere.
49“Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”
Luke 10:1,9
1After this the Lord appointed seventy-two others and sent them two by two ahead of him to every town and place where he was about to go.
9Heal the sick who are there and tell them, ‘The kingdom of God has come near to you.’
Spiritual gifts are for believers only:
Mark 16
17And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues; 18they will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”
That means Judas was a believer, at least at the beginning. Toward the end only God knows. But the point of all of this is what does it mean for OSAS?
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Are you going to answer this question,
Runningman
Who was Jesus speaking of in this verse?
Joh_17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Runningman
Who was Jesus speaking of in this verse?
Joh_17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
Back to generic OSAS passages per the OP:
John 15:
"15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Notice the Lord Jesus says:
(1) He/the Father/cuts off every branch in Christ that bears no fruit, as arguably happened to Judas.
(2) But the branches that do bear fruit, like the rest of the holy Apostles, were pruned to become more fruitful.
(3) They were already clean, i.e. Justified Christians. But they still needed to remain in Him to bear abiding fruit.
Second paragraph.
(4) He is the Vine, they are the branches. If they abide/remain in Him, they will bear much fruit.
(5) If they do not abide, they are like branches thrown away, picked up and burned in the fire.
(6) When they remain in Him, their Prayers will be Powerful, and He will grant what they wish.
(7) This is how we Glorify the Father in our lives, by bearing much fruit for Love of Jesus Christ.
God Bless.
John 15:
"15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.
Notice the Lord Jesus says:
(1) He/the Father/cuts off every branch in Christ that bears no fruit, as arguably happened to Judas.
(2) But the branches that do bear fruit, like the rest of the holy Apostles, were pruned to become more fruitful.
(3) They were already clean, i.e. Justified Christians. But they still needed to remain in Him to bear abiding fruit.
Second paragraph.
(4) He is the Vine, they are the branches. If they abide/remain in Him, they will bear much fruit.
(5) If they do not abide, they are like branches thrown away, picked up and burned in the fire.
(6) When they remain in Him, their Prayers will be Powerful, and He will grant what they wish.
(7) This is how we Glorify the Father in our lives, by bearing much fruit for Love of Jesus Christ.
God Bless.
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It’s talking about Judas. Jesus said He lost him. So you believe Judas lost his salvation after having been told he would inherit eternal life?
Matthew 19
27Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”
28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
Matthew 19
27Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”
28Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.29And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or wife or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
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I don't believer he ever was a believer. I don't believe the Scriptures teach he was. I don't think God would cause a believer to sin unto damnation. I believe judas was chosen from the begining because he was not a believer.
Working to force Scripture to your beliefs is or should be scary. Working the Scripture to force your personal view of osas on anyone, shows you are willing to torment the Word .
Working to force Scripture to your beliefs is or should be scary. Working the Scripture to force your personal view of osas on anyone, shows you are willing to torment the Word .
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