Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Runningman]

so the bad guy who say yup i killed her is fine? I have not looked into that , i will, a life time of assuming asking was just part of repenting...

Of course you can ask for forgiveness. Nothing wrong with that at all. I think a conversation with God, asking questions, and getting answers is a normal part of our relationship. I’m just saying that in the Bible there isn’t any example of being required to ask as long as the confession and repentance is genuine, such as is the case with Judas when he repented.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

1 Jn 1:9 says confessing sins is required to be forgiven: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Similar passages in the Old Testament. E.G. Prov 28:13: "Whoever conceals their sins does not prosper, but the one who confesses and renounces them finds mercy."

Judas arguably should have confessed at the Last Supper what he was planning to do, i.e. betray and murder Christ.

But if not, then at least after that, he should have confessed his sin to the Lord, and asked Him for His Mercy. God Bless.

 

[Runningman]

Judas was also a thief.

Judas might not be the man of faith that your claiming.

Judas was a sinner like everyone else. Does that mean no one can lay claim to being a man or woman of faith?

 

[Runningman]

1 Jn 1:9 says confessing sins is required to be forgiven: "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Similar passages in the Old Testament. E.G. Prov 28:13: "Whoever conceals their sins does not prosper, but the one who confesses and renounces them finds mercy."

Judas arguably should have confessed at the Last Supper what he was planning to do, i.e. betray and murder Christ.

But if not, then at least after that, he should have confessed his sin to the Lord, and asked Him for His Mercy. God Bless.

Paul said the Lord’s supper is about discerning the body of Christ, not sin confession. Christ hadn’t been crucified yet. I believe Jesus was instituting the pattern to follow. He said to do it in remembrance of Him. A memorial service is for those who have died.

1 Corinthians 11:27-29
27So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

Luke 22:19
19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

 

[Inquisitor]

Judas was a sinner like everyone else. Does that mean no one can lay claim to being a man or woman of faith?

Interesting that Judas even though he was a sinner, just like everyone else. He is painted as an evil person in the scripture. Judas lost his place among the twelve apostles. Jesus also predicted that he would be betrayed by one of the twelve apostles.

I would have trouble identifying Judas as a man of faith. Not a trustworthy person.

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

Paul said the Lord’s supper is about discerning the body of Christ, not sin confession. Christ hadn’t been crucified yet. I believe Jesus was instituting the pattern to follow. He said to do it in remembrance of Him. A memorial service is for those who have died.

1 Corinthians 11:27-29
27So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord. 28Everyone ought to examine themselves before they eat of the bread and drink from the cup. 29For those who eat and drink without discerning the body of Christ eat and drink judgment on themselves.

Luke 22:19
19And he took bread, gave thanks and broke it, and gave it to them, saying, “This is my body given for you; do this in remembrance of me.”

Well, the Early Christians used to Confess their Sins before partaking of the Lord's Supper, as the Didache records: "
But every Lord's day gather yourselves together, and break bread, and give thanksgiving after having confessed your transgressions, that your sacrifice may be pure. But let no one that is at variance with his fellow come together with you, until they be reconciled, that your sacrifice may not be profaned. For this is that which was spoken by the Lord: In every place and time offer to me a pure sacrifice; for I am a great King, says the Lord, and my name is wonderful among the nations." Taken from: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/0714.htmThe Scriptural reference in the latter part is to Mal 1:11.

But the issue is, when taking holy Communion, we should do it with faith in and love for Christ, right? Those people you mentioned in 1 Cor 11:27-29 did not do that, and thus ate and drank judgment upon themselves, and arguably same happened to Judas. Especially because the Gospel says: "As soon as Judas took the bread, Satan entered into him." (Jn 13:27a)

The other disciples received the Lord's body and blood, but Judas received Satan. Imo, that is because, the other Apostles, though they were weak, loved the Lord. But Judas probably hated Him. Can you explain why someone would deliberately and knowingly hand over Christ to His enemies to be killed? What kind of thoughts must be going on in the heart of one doing that? The Word of God says: "15Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him." (1 Jn 3:15). Wasn't Judas a murderer by killing Jesus just like Cain who killed his brother Abel?

Imo, he was. In theory, either he, or Hitler, or Stalin, or Margaret Sanger, or Ruth Ginsberg etc, could have said sorry to the Lord and tried to love Him again, but in practice, it is very rare, and hardly ever happens imo, if one hardens one's heart so as to deliberately kill. Hence, the Word of God says murderers do not have Eternal Life in them, giving the e.g. of Cain etc.

God Bless.

 

[Sipsey]

Acts 2:37,38 describes an after the fact kind of repentance, the same kind that Judas had. People repent after they are informed about their sins. That’s the whole point of telling people about their sins so they can realize their need to repent. It’s a normal and valid form of repentance. I think you’re splitting hairs a bit over semantics.

Acts 2:37,38
37 Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

So, you’re going ignore the fact that a different Greek word is used in the text that describes feelings of remorse, rather than true repentance. Many Christians want to substitute feelings and emotions for spirituality, when the Bible states they are not the litmus test.

Look, many people can justify a pet view by assembling a group of verses that “seem” to point to a conclusion, when actualy their underlying text and context say otherwise. You are ignoring the plain thrust of Scripture to try and make it harmonize with your personal view, thats called eisegesis.

 

[Beckie]

Of course you can ask for forgiveness. Nothing wrong with that at all. I think a conversation with God, asking questions, and getting answers is a normal part of our relationship. I’m just saying that in the Bible there isn’t any example of being required to ask as long as the confession and repentance is genuine, such as is the case with Judas when he repented.

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Strongs for the word lost
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
Total KJV occurrences: 92

 

[Runningman]

So, you’re going ignore the fact that a different Greek word is used in the text that describes feelings of remorse, rather than true repentance. Many Christians want to substitute feelings and emotions for spirituality, when the Bible states they are not the litmus test.

Look, many people can justify a pet view by assembling a group of verses that “seem” to point to a conclusion, when actualy their underlying text and context say otherwise. You are ignoring the plain thrust of Scripture to try and make it harmonize with your personal view, thats called eisegesis.

The point you seem to be making is that because a different word for repentance was used to describe Judas that it isn’t a valid repentance because it occurred after he had realized he had did something wrong. Am I following you correctly?

Then in Acts 2:37,38 the same kind of repentance is described, yet a different word for repent is used after the audience Peter was speaking to realized they were instrumental in the crucifixion of Jesus. After they realized that, they were pricked in their heart. After Judas realized he betrayed innocent blood, he regretted it. He also took actions to try to repent by returning the silver.

I still think there isn’t any discernible difference.

 

[Runningman]

Joh 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

Strongs for the word lost
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
Total KJV occurrences: 92

So Judas lost his salvation and got destroyed?

 

[Beckie]

So Judas lost his salvation and got destroyed?

John 17:12 is what Jesus said .

Reading this Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Tells me Judas "condemned already" to my understanding he never had salvation.

 

[Runningman]

John 17:12 is what Jesus said .

Reading this Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Tells me Judas "condemned already" to my understanding he never had salvation.

That applies to unbelievers.

Judas was a believer and I’ll try to concisely show that again just pointing to verses:

1. Jesus, speaking to His 12 disciples, said they will inherit eternal life in Matthew 19:29
2. Judas received power and authority to exercise at least one gift of the Holy Spirit, such as healing, from Jesus in Luke 9:1-10
3. Being a believer is required to receive spiritual gifts in Mark 16:17,18 and John 14:12

So the conclusion is Judas had power and authority to do miracles because he was a believer. There’s no other Biblical way to get that kind of power from God.

At one point Judas was told he will inherit eternal life. Yet he was called a betrayer, a devil, the son of perdition, was said about him it would be better had he never been born, and ultimately he took his own life.

So despite all of this here are the options I see to consider:

1. Judas was an unbeliever who exercised one or more gifts of the Holy Spirit
2. Judas was a believer who exercised one or more gifts of the Holy Spirit
3. Judas was saved and went to heaven
4. Judas was not saved and did not go to heaven
5. Judas was saved then lost his salvation

 

[Beckie]

That applies to unbelievers.

Judas was a believer and I’ll try to concisely show that again just pointing to verses:

1. Jesus, speaking to His 12 disciples, said they will inherit eternal life in Matthew 19:29
2. Judas received power and authority to exercise at least one gift of the Holy Spirit, such as healing, from Jesus in Luke 9:1-10
3. Being a believer is required to receive spiritual gifts in Mark 16:17,18 and John 14:12

So the conclusion is Judas had power and authority to do miracles because he was a believer. There’s no other Biblical way to get that kind of power from God.

At one point Judas was told he will inherit eternal life. Yet he was called a betrayer, a devil, the son of perdition, was said about him it would be better had he never been born, and ultimately he took his own life.

So despite all of this here are the options I see to consider:

1. Judas was an unbeliever who exercised one or more gifts of the Holy Spirit
2. Judas was a believer who exercised gifts of the Holy Spirit
3. Judas was saved and went to heaven
4. Judas was not saved and did not go to heaven
5. Judas was saved then lost his salvation

The Holy Spirit came after the Cross, after Judas killed himself how could he have exercised a gift that had not come?

Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

 

[Runningman]

The Holy Spirit came after the Cross, after Judas killed himself how could he have exercised a gift that had not come?

Healing, prophecy, etc are gifts of the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:7-11)

The Holy Spirit had already come and was active in the Old Testament and was active in the ministry of Jesus. Jesus used miracles, He gave His 12 disciples the power to do them, too. Point is, Judas was given the power and authority to heal. Very interesting that only a believer can get that.

 

[Cameron143]

Healing, prophecy, etc are gifts of the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:7-11)

The Holy Spirit had already come and was active in the Old Testament and was active in the ministry of Jesus. Jesus used miracles, He gave His 12 disciples the power to do them, too. Point is, Judas was given the power and authority to heal. Very interesting that only a believer can get that.

Actually only the believer can have the indwelling of the Spirit.
See Matt 7:21-23 for miracles done in Jesus name apart from salvation.
There are other examples too.

 

[Runningman]

Actually only the believer can have the indwelling of the Spirit.
See Matt 7:21-23 for miracles done in Jesus name apart from salvation.
There are other examples too.

Matthew 7:21-23 says it’s about who Jesus never knew. Jesus knew Judas personally.

The point I made a bit earlier is that Judas couldn’t have did the miracles he did unless he was a believer.

I’m interested to see anyone’s answer to any one of these possibilities. I’ll post them again if you want to answer:

1. Judas was an unbeliever who exercised one or more gifts of the Holy Spirit
2. Judas was a believer who exercised one or more gifts of the Holy Spirit
3. Judas was saved and went to heaven
4. Judas was not saved and did not go to heaven
5. Judas was saved then lost his salvation

 

[Beckie]

Healing, prophecy, etc are gifts of the Holy Spirit. (1 Corinthians 12:7-11)

The Holy Spirit had already come and was active in the Old Testament and was active in the ministry of Jesus. Jesus used miracles, He gave His 12 disciples the power to do them, too. Point is, Judas was given the power and authority to heal. Very interesting that only a believer can get that.

Jesus had to go so the Comforter could come
Joh 16:7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.
Who do you believe Jesus was speaking of here in verse John16:7
I agree the Holy Spirit was active in the OT

If i am mistaken some one show me ... I believe the gifts of the Holy Spirit came after His Death. I believe there was/is always our Triune God

 

[Beckie]

I can not find examples of, specifically, Judas praying or doing miracles

 

[XavierJesusLovesIndia]

I agree Judas probably was a believer. He did work miracles in Jesus' Name along with the other 11 Apostles, which does strongly suggest he was, even if perhaps it is not 100% conclusive. I suppose someone could say he was just faking or feigning it or something, though that seems unlikely. But in the end, almost certainly he was not saved, as he didn't persevere in faith in Christ and love for Him. In Him, the first part of what the Lord says in Mat 24:12-13 came to pass. In fact, now that I think about it, many of the passages in the Gospels seem to have been said by Our Lord Jesus Christ specifically aimed and targeted at Judas, and with the intention of trying to save him. Nobody is predestined to damnation; foreseen/foreknown by Almighty God, yes, but not predestined. There is Predestination to Heaven, because Predestination means God is the Author and Cause of our Salvation. But there is no Predestination to Hell, because Man alone is the Author and Cause of his own Damnation, if by his own free-willed choice he deliberately and freely choses to die in impenitence. God loved Judas and tried to save him; that's why He washed his feet etc.

The passage: "And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved." Because Judas loved money, he committed iniquity, and because he did, he lost his soul imo. Also, the other Apostles faced all the difficulties and trials of the Apostolate; travelling from place to place, not having a settled home, having to flee persecution, often living in poverty, having but little etc, yet by the Power of the Spirit they freely chose that they wanted to love and serve Christ and God helped all of them (except St. John) die as Martyrs for Christ and be saved. As for Saint John the Apostle, Church History records he was burned in boiling oil, but later died a peaceful death in old age.

God Bless.

 

[Cameron143]

Matthew 7:21-23 says it’s about who Jesus never knew. Jesus knew Judas personally.

The point I made a bit earlier is that Judas couldn’t have did the miracles he did unless he was a believer.

I’m interested to see anyone’s answer to any one of these possibilities. I’ll post them again if you want to answer:

1. Judas was an unbeliever who exercised one or more gifts of the Holy Spirit
2. Judas was a believer who exercised one or more gifts of the Holy Spirit
3. Judas was saved and went to heaven
4. Judas was not saved and did not go to heaven
5. Judas was saved then lost his salvation

Knowing Jesus doesn't mean being acquainted with Him. It means to have an intimate, supernatural relationship with Him...John 17:3.
And where does it say only believers can perform miracles? Or that God can't perform miracles through unbelievers? I grant you that God has used such to authenticate the ministry of many it is usually stated in scripture.