The killer flaw in pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

oyster67 · Nov 3, 2022

The Bible states that we go up before we come down...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Revelation 19:14
“And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.”

Jude 1:14
“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”

bluto said:

2 Timothy 2
16But shun profane and vain babblings: for they will increase unto more ungodliness. 17And their word will eat as doth a canker: of whom is Hymenaeus and Philetus; 18Who concerning the truth have erred, saying that the resurrection is past already; and overthrow the faith of some. 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 3, 2022

studentoftheword said:

What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19).

The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9).

The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18).

The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire

You still have not provided ANY verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. None.

And I have shown from multiple verses that there will be ONLY ONE resurrection for the saved, and that means ALL of the saved, at the same time. 1 Cor 15:23 tells us when that will be: "when He comes". And every reference to Jesus "coming" is a reference to the Second Advent, since the OT prophesied of two Advents or comings.

Here is another verse that plainly SAYS Jesus comes at the second advent:

2 Thess 2:1 - Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters,

FreeGrace2 · Nov 3, 2022

oyster67 said:

The Bible states that we go up before we come down...

1 Thessalonians 4:17
“Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.”

Revelation 19:14
“And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.”

Jude 1:14
“And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,”

But none of these verses shows Jesus taking resurrected/glorified believers to heaven.

oyster67 · Nov 3, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

It says they go up. The verse uses the word "up". Heaven is up. The Marriage is up in Heaven (and I realize that poses a problem for post-trib rappers.)
Second Coming = "down". We return with Him at the Second Coming.

studentoftheword · Nov 3, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

ya ---ya same old --same old -----stuff you have been saying -----on and on you go ----round the mulberry bush ---LOL ----

FreeGrace2 · Nov 4, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
But none of these verses shows Jesus taking resurrected/glorified believers to heaven.

oyster67 said:

Right. And so you PRESUME "up" means "all the way to heaven". 1 Thess 4 is very clear that those who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will meet Jesus AND all the dead saints "in the air". That's UP.

No verse says "up to heaven". That's just an assumption, or worse, a presumption.

A lot of things are "up". Ceilings, clouds, birds flying, planes flying, smoke. Take your pick. But, "up" without further description does NOT mean "heaven".

[QOUTE]The Marriage is up in Heaven (and I realize that poses a problem for post-trib rappers.)[/QUOTE]
Again, there are no verses that show this. In fact, Rev 19 shows the dead saints in heaven PREPARING for the wedding, and then the scene immediately changes to all of the accompanying Christ as King of kings back to earth.

No. If you are alive and remain "when He comes" per 1 Cor 15:23, you ain't "returning". You will be meeting THEM in the air when THEY return with him.

Every reference to "the coming of Jesus" in the NT refers to the Second Advent, since the OT prophesied about just TWO advents of the Messiah; first advent He came as a baby to become the Suffering Servant and died on a cross for mankind. Second advent He comes back as King of kings.

1 Thess 4:17 mentions the coming of Jesus = second advent. 2 Thess 2:1 mentions the coming of Jesus = second advent. 1 Cor 15:23 mentions the coming of Jesus = second advent.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 4, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:
You still have not provided ANY verse that shows Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven. None.

studentoftheword said:

When you are finished LYHO, would you kindly find any verse that DOES show Jesus taking resurrected/glorified believers to heaven?

Thanks.

Lucy-Pevensie · Nov 4, 2022

oyster67 said:

Clouds are up but they are not the throne room of heaven.

Exodus 19
18 Mount Sinai was covered with smoke, because the Lord descended on it in fire. The smoke billowed up from it like smoke from a furnace, and the whole mountain trembled violently. 19 As the sound of the trumpet grew louder and louder, Moses spoke and the
voice of God answered him. 20 The Lord descended to the top of Mount Sinai and called Moses to the top of the mountain. So Moses went up .

oyster67 said:

It poses a problem because in prophecy the wedding is described on Earth. It's isn't described in heaven anywhere in scripture.
I'm not a post -tribber. I'm a 2nd coming resurrectionist.

bluto · Nov 4, 2022

oyster67 said:

Here's your problem with your answer. All you did was quote some verses, (which anybody can do) but you did not explain how these verses prove the pre-tribulation rapture of the church. The topic is "WHEN" will the church be raptured , before or after the tribulation. Also, I addressed 1 Thessalonians 4:17 in detail at my post #24.

You have to account for the words of Jesus Himself at Matthew 24:3 where the disciples ask Him when is the "last" day or the end of the world. How can the rapture occur before the last day? There is only one last day. Even Martha at John 11:24 stated, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection ON THE LAST DAY." She was referring to her brother Lazarus. Also at Revelation 20:5, "This is the first resurrection." I can provide more verses if you want. Have to run.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

studentoftheword · Nov 4, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Well here is where your understanding is wrong ----if your talking alive people ------To be resurrected you have to be dead and brought back -----So the Dead will rise First ------and the dead will be taken to heaven in their Glorified Bodies -------

The living who are going to be caught up in the air with Jesus their bodies are changed --transformed not resurrected to their Glorified Body -------

Jesus on the Mountain was Changed ---he was transfigured -----he was not resurrected to His glorified body ---His human body was transformed ---changed -----and that was done to show us how we would look in our transfigured glorified body -and to show He was the divine Son Of God -----Elijah and Moses both appeared in their Glorified bodies with Jesus on the mountain ------Elijah was Raptured ---Moses died-and was resurrected ----

Was Jesus Raptured -after His resurrection --Caught up to heaven on a cloud with His Resurrected glorified body -------yes He was ====

The Apostle Paul is talking about the Rapture here -----verses 51 --52 ---

1 Corinthians 15:50-54

Amplified Bible, Classic Edition

50 But I tell you this, brethren, flesh and blood cannot [become partakers of eternal salvation and] inherit or share in the kingdom of God; nor does the perishable (that which is decaying) inherit or share in the imperishable (the immortal).

51 Take notice! I tell you a mystery (a secret truth, an event decreed by the hidden purpose or counsel of God). We shall not all fall asleep [in death], but we shall all be changed (transformed)

52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the [sound of the] last trumpet call. For a trumpet will sound, and the dead [in Christ] will be raised imperishable (free and immune from decay), and we shall be changed (transformed).

53 For this perishable [part of us] must put on the imperishable [nature], and this mortal [part of us, this nature that is capable of dying] must put on immortality (freedom from death).

54 And when this perishable puts on the imperishable and this that was capable of dying puts on freedom from death, then shall be fulfilled the Scripture that says, Death is swallowed up (utterly vanquished [a]forever) in and unto victory.

----so at the Rapture of the alive Saints their human body will be changed to a glorified Spiritual body -so they can enter heaven ----

Enoch and Elijah were both caught up and escaped death --------common sense tells you that their flesh which is corrupt never went to heaven ---Heaven is a holy place and nothing unholy can enter it ----so their human bodies were transformed ---changed -----

--------------------------------------------------------------------
So now here is what I am going to get back from you -----this same statement ------

FreeGrace2 said:

oyster67 · Nov 4, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Up does not mean down, as in returning to Earth with Jesus at the second Coming. These are two separate events.

Lucy-Pevensie · Nov 4, 2022

oyster67 said:

If we use this as a proof scripture for a secret escape to heaven there are 2 big problems with it.

1 Why are we cherry-picking ? 3: 10 is addressing the church at Philadelphia. One church from seven.

Is the entire church at the time of The Great Tribulation represented by the Philadelphian church alone? Not by the others?
If so we need to be told by pretrib teachers why we may cherry pick the line that sounds most pleasing from all of Jesus' messages.

Rev 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

2 Can God keep his followers from temptation ONLY by removing them from Earth entirely?
A question believers need to ask their pretrib teachers. Who has decided that God cannot protect believers on Earth?

If God was able to protect Israel by the blood of the Passover Lamb in Egypt, why would he be obliged to remove all believers
from Earth during tribulation? We are marked by the blood of The Lamb, Jesus.

oyster67 · Nov 4, 2022

Lucy-Pevensie said:

Please show me this prophecy.

oyster67 · Nov 4, 2022

bluto said:

The "Last Day" means the end of the age. There will be no end for the Church. "The Last Days" is a commonly employed term that refers to all events at the end of the Church Age.

Jocund · Nov 4, 2022

oyster67 said:

I like your observation here.

There seem to be saints coming down, so it makes sense that they must have gone up first.

I think the difference in interpretation between the rapture models and non-rapture models revolves entirely around whether these saints were taken up (bodily) while alive, or whether their spirit was taken up to God after death.

If we look at RCC, they interpret patron saints to ascend to heaven, but only after their bodily death.

I'm becoming drawn to the idea that there's a deeper conversation at play with the whole rapture vs. non-rapture bit.

If "rapture" would include spiritual bodies being drawn into heaven, we could interpret Rev 4:1-2 to be a type of rapture enacted on John the Revelator.

"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne." - Rev 4:1-2 KJV

So if we follow a broader definition of "rapture" I think we are all basically on the same page that some kind of "rapture" would be indicated in scripture.

But most Rapture models aren't using a broad definition. Most Rapture models advocate for a living, earthly body removal. It can be confusing for anyone that hasn't previously encountered the concept because scripture points to the idea that we are all destined to die, and those in Christ to be resurrected unto eternal life.

When do these raptured people die?

"And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:" - Heb 9:27 KJV

Have the raptured people already experienced death? Just like the two witnesses?

oyster67 · Nov 4, 2022

Lucy-Pevensie said:

If we use this as a proof scripture for a secret escape to heaven there are 2 big problems with it.

1 Why are we cherry-picking ? 3: 10 is addressing the church at Philadelphia. One church from seven.

Is the entire church at the time of The Great Tribulation represented by the Philadelphian church alone? Not by the others?
If so we need to be told by pretrib teachers why we may cherry pick the line that sounds most pleasing from all of Jesus' messages.

Rev 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you life as your victor’s crown.

2 Can God keep his followers from temptation ONLY by removing them from Earth entirely?
A question believers need to ask their pretrib teachers. Who has decided that God cannot protect believers on Earth?

If God was able to protect Israel by the blood of the Passover Lamb in Egypt, why would he be obliged to remove all believers
from Earth during tribulation? We are marked by the blood of The Lamb, Jesus.

Please come to Philadelphia and fellowship with Oyster.

oyster67 · Nov 4, 2022

Jocund said:

They have experienced death to sin. Most have experienced death of the physical body as well. (But not all.)

Jocund said:

I think that the message of this verse is a warning: There will come a point when the time for making your decision is past.

Lucy-Pevensie · Nov 4, 2022

oyster67 said:

Who is this coming up from the wilderness,
leaning on the one she loves? SOS 8:5

Psalm 45 is a royal wedding Maskil (song) If I post it all I'll take up the whole page.

9 Kings’ daughters are among your honored women;
the queen, adorned with gold from Ophir,
stands at your right hand.
10 Listen, daughter, pay attention and consider:
Forget your people and your father’s house,
11 and the king will desire your beauty.
Bow down to him, for he is your lord.
12 The daughter of Tyre, the wealthy people,
will seek your favor with gifts.
13 In her chamber, the royal daughter is all glorious,
her clothing embroidered with gold.
14 In colorful garments she is led to the king;
after her, the virgins, her companions, are brought to you.
15 They are led in with gladness and rejoicing;
they enter the king’s palace.

Isaiah 62

4 You will no longer be called Deserted,
and your land will not be called Desolate;
instead, you will be called My Delight Is in Her, [ Hephzibah ]
and your land Married; [Beulah ]
for the Lord delights in you,
and your land will be married.
5 For as a young man marries a young woman,
so your sons will marry you;
and as a groom rejoices over his bride,
so your God will rejoice over you.

Isaiah 25

6 On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare
a feast of rich food for all peoples,
a banquet of aged wine—
the best of meats and the finest of wines.
7 On this mountain he will destroy
the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
the sheet that covers all nations;
8 he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove his people’s disgrace
from all the earth.
The Lord has spoken.

9 In that day they will say,

“Surely this is our God;
we trusted in him, and he saved us.
This is the Lord, we trusted in him;

let us rejoice and be glad in his salvation.”

8 ↑ is the verse quoted by Paul in 1 Cor 15

Also Psalm 68 records the processional return of the King.

oyster67 · Nov 4, 2022

Lucy-Pevensie said:

Who is this coming up from the wilderness,
leaning on the one she loves? SOS 8:5

Psalm 45 is a royal wedding Maskil (song) If I post it all I'll take up the whole page.

9 Kings’ daughters are among your honored women;
the queen, adorned with gold from Ophir,
stands at your right hand.
10 Listen, daughter, pay attention and consider:
Forget your people and your father’s house,
11 and the king will desire your beauty.
Bow down to him, for he is your lord.
12 The daughter of Tyre, the wealthy people,
will seek your favor with gifts.
13 In her chamber, the royal daughter is all glorious,
her clothing embroidered with gold.
14 In colorful garments she is led to the king;
after her, the virgins, her companions, are brought to you.
15 They are led in with gladness and rejoicing;
they enter the king’s palace.

Isaiah 62

4 You will no longer be called Deserted,
and your land will not be called Desolate;
instead, you will be called My Delight Is in Her, [ Hephzibah ]
and your land Married; [Beulah ]
for the Lord delights in you,
and your land will be married.
5 For as a young man marries a young woman,
so your sons will marry you;
and as a groom rejoices over his bride,
so your God will rejoice over you.

Isaiah 25

6 On this mountain the Lord Almighty will prepare
a feast of rich food for all peoples,
a banquet of aged wine—
the best of meats and the finest of wines.
7 On this mountain he will destroy
the shroud that enfolds all peoples,
the sheet that covers all nations;
8 he will swallow up death forever.
The Sovereign Lord will wipe away the tears
from all faces;
he will remove his people’s disgrace
from all the earth.
The Lord has spoken.

9 In that day they will say,

“Surely this is our God;
we trusted in him, and he saved us.
This is the Lord, we trusted in him;

let us rejoice and be glad in his salvation.”

8 ↑ is the verse quoted by Paul in 1 Cor 15

Also Psalm 68 records the processional return of the King.

The King is coming! PTL!

That is something we can agree on.

GRACE_ambassador · Nov 4, 2022

oyster67 said:

Of course, with "Further Description," Rightly Dividing God's
Word Of Truth, there is another Scriptural possibility:

we "go up and STAY up" - ie:

our (The Body Of Christ) position is ETERNAL, in the heavens,
Correct?:

2Co 5:1

"For we know that if our earthly house of this

tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building

Of God, an house not made with hands,

eternal in the heavens."

When is this experienced? At our change, which Paul says Is
A Mystery:

"Behold, I shew you A Mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we
shall all be changed, In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye,
at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead
shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal
must put on immortality. So when this corruptible shall have
put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immort-
ality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written,

Death is swallowed up in Victory." (1Co 15:51-54)

Praise God, Must be pre-TOJT Departure To Glory, and:

Thanks for reviewing; More Scriptural Evidence found here:

Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure I
+
Pre-Trib Great GRACE Departure II

Grace, Peace, And JOY In The LORD JESUS CHRIST,
And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).

The killer flaw in pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

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