The killer flaw in pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

studentoftheword · Nov 3, 2022

Both charts are WRONG ???????---actually this is the THIRD Chart that I posted that confirms Pre--Trib Rapture----

and---- you people who don't believe in the PRE_TRIB are all Right in your understanding ????????-----

So show the evidence in a graph that says ---the Rapture is not pre Trib -------where is the evidence that proves your point ------cause Scripture goes against your theory -------

Lucy-Pevensie · Nov 3, 2022

oyster67 said:

There isn't a case for pretribulation raputure in this verse.

13 We do not want you to be uninformed, brothers and sisters, concerning those who are asleep,
so that you will not grieve like the rest, who have no hope.

Comfort one another about this ↑ Your deceased loved ones.

Why? Because your deceased loved ones will be resurrected before you! You don't need to grieve.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, in the same way, through Jesus, God will bring
with him those who have fallen asleep.

Then very he clearly he describes when this happens. At the second coming.

16 For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the archangel’s voice, and
with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.

Comfort one another that your dead will rise again when they come with Jesus at his return.
You don't have to grieve about death in way the unsaved do.
Its a beautiful passage about the resurrection at the 2nd coming.

studentoftheword · Nov 3, 2022

Lucy-Pevensie said:

I say -------Says --who---- you ???????-----that is just your thinking that is what it says ----you haven't given any proof here in that scripture that denies the Pre--Tri Rapture ----- your posting what you think it says ------

So again show some proof that denies the Pre--Trib Rapture ------I have given 3 charts ---all confirm the pre-trib Rapture -----as do the Scriptures ------

bluto · Nov 3, 2022

studentoftheword said:

You said the following: "
The Church Age is the period of time from Pentecost
(Acts 2) to the rapture (foretold in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18).

1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 is "NOT" teaching the rapture of the church before the tribulation. If you would read the next chapter 5 the Apostle Paul at vs 1 states, "Now as to the times and the epochs, brethren, you have no need of anything to be written to you." Vs2, "FOR" or (because) you yourselves know full well that the DAY of the Lord , will come just like a thief in the night.

The point Paul is making especially at vs 9 is the fact that God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ. If this verse means we are raptured then there would be no reason (in the rest of the chapter) for us to follow the instructions of vs14. "And we urge you, brethren, to admonish the unruly, encourage the fainthearted, help the weak, be patient with all men."

Notice also at vs 11. "Therefore encourage one another, and build up one another just as you also are doing." Why say all this if were already raptured? John 11:21-27 makes an interesting point. Jesus is talking with Martha about her brother who had died. At vs22 Jesus says, "Your brother shall rise again." At vs 23 Martha says, "I know that he will rise again in the RESURRECTION ON THE LAST DAY." And at Revelation 20:5, "The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed, THIS IS THE FIRST RESURRECTION."

Again, there is only one resurrection and Hebrews 9:28, "so Christ also, having been offered ONCE to bear the sins of many shall appear a second time for salvation/deliverance without reference to sin, to those who eagerly await Him." No one in their right mind want's to go through the tribulation but this how God laid out the finalization of His plan at the last day or at the end of the world. Please, read the context.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

FreeGrace2 · Nov 3, 2022

studentoftheword said:

The truth of Scripture is that there will be A resurrection of the saved and A resurrection of the unsaved.

Dan 12:2 - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Blue words refer to the resurrection of the saved.
Red wowrds refer to the resurrection of the unsaved.

John 5-
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
Same color code

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Same color code.

These 3 verses are clear about only one resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Blue words refer to the fact that Jesus is the FIRST to receive a glorified resurrection body.
Red words refer to the Second Advent. EVERY verse in the NT that mentions the "coming of Jesus" is ALWAYS about the Second Advent, because the OT prophesied about only TWO advents or "comings" of Jesus.

First Advent - Jesus came as a baby to become the Suffering Servant to die for the sins of the human race.
Second Advent - Jesus comes back as King of kings.

So 1 Cor 15:23 very clearly states WHEN the resurrection of the saved will occur: WHEN He comes = Second Advent

The Bible tells us that the two resurrections are 1,000 years apart as well.

Rev 20:4-6
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Blue words refer to martyrs from the Tribulation. Red words refer to the resurrection of the saved.
Orange words refer to the resurrection of the unsaved.

I think you forgot to actually read ALL of Revelation. Compare these 2 passages:

1:1-3
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Following this prologue, John delivers letters to 7 CHURCHES, through ch 3.

Then, this:

Rev 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

So, what is "for the churches"? The ENTIRE book of Revelation.

Wrong. The ENTIRE book is for the churches.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 3, 2022

I forgot one thing. The actual flaw in the pre-trib doctrine is that there are NO verses showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

That is the proof they MUST HAVE to prove their doctrine, and there isn't any evidence for it.

Plus the single resurrection of the saved, which occurs at the Second Advent. Can't argue against that.

Lucy-Pevensie · Nov 3, 2022

studentoftheword said:

The scripture confirms itself. Just read it.
If you want insert and extra word (pretribulation) into it, you are free to do so.

1 Thess 4 (KJV)

13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.

Pilgrimshope · Nov 3, 2022

“For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭4:16-18‬ ‭KJV‬‬

when Christ returns the first thing will be the rising of the dead in Christ for jidgement that coincides here at the end of the world

“And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. ( the present heaven and earth are destroyed here see 2 Peter 3:7)

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:11-15‬ ‭

that’s this day when the dead are raised up and judged when Jesus shouts at his return

“Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, and shall come forth;( the dead in Christ raised forst ) they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:28-29‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this same day

“and to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels, in flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ: who shall be punished with everlasting destruction ( lake of fire ) from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;”
‭‭2 Thessalonians‬ ‭1:7-9‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“but the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men.”
‭‭2 Peter‬ ‭3:7‬ ‭KJV‬‬

this moment of all Mans judgement before his throne

“For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad. Knowing therefore the terror of the Lord, we persuade men; but we are made manifest unto God; and I trust also are made manifest in your consciences.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:10-11‬ ‭KJV‬‬

the doctrine all speaks to one event one moment when suddenly as people think it’s just another normal day

“But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.”
‭‭1 Thessalonians‬ ‭5:1-3‬ ‭

could be today jesusnis going to return t that moment the dead will rise up for judgement the living in Christ will be raised up into the air with them and Jesus and then the dead will be judged according to thier works and earth and heaven will be destroyed along with them with the fires of judgement

it’s just a moment a day a shout trump and our reality is going to disappear and we will see in truth that day

Edify · Nov 3, 2022

I hope for a pre-tribulation rapture, but I can't confirm it yet.
One of the things we're taught is "hope for the best, prepare for the worst. That's what I'm doing.
What none of us know are the details of events before & during the tribulation.
For instance will the time of sorrows include a massive population reduction like the 1% wants? Covid has done one thing, & that's opened our eyes to the possibilities.
Now that Bill Gates has "prophesied" that another pandemic is coming, that certainly has me to thinking.
I obviously don't know, but one thing I've already determined NOT to do is take a vaccine for it.
Who knows how close we are to the time of sorrows?
I DO know the elitists are behind the scenes, therefore they are a part of what's to come.
I DO know the stage is being set for the Antichrist to appear already, & the elitists are setting it.

What am I going to do? Do what I've always done, & trust the Lord with it.

NAS
Proverbs 3:1My son, do not forget my [a]teaching,
But have your heart comply with my commandments;
2For length of days and years of life
And peace they will add to you.
3Do not let kindness and truth leave you;
Bind them around your neck,
Write them on the tablet of your heart.
4So you will find favor and a good reputation
In the sight of God and man.
5Trust in the LORD with all your heart
And do not lean on your own understanding.
6In all your ways acknowledge Him,
And He will make your paths straight.

FreeGrace2 · Nov 3, 2022

Edify said:

The Bible is clear about the resurrection, which pre-tribbers focus as "the rapture".

The only problem is that the Bible says nothing about Jesus taking resurrected/glorified believers to heaven. Zip.

Also, the Bible speaks of only 1 resurrection of the saved, which will be when Jesus comes back at the Second Advent.

John did a pretty good job of giving us a summary of events.

In the seal judgments, the 4th horseman of the apocalypse (pale green horse) (6:8) is given power over a fourth of the earth to KILL by sword, famine, and plague. It could mean 1/4 of geography, or 1/4 of the population. Most scholars seem to believe it is 1/4 of the population.

Then, in 6:15, it says 4 angels were released to "KILL a third of mankind".

This all seems to be related to the Tribulation.

studentoftheword · Nov 3, 2022

Lucy-Pevensie said:

No the scripture does not confirm it ---that is you confirming it -------cause you just want to be right and will grasp at any scripture to say your right -----

So now prove there is no pre=trib Rapture -----I have given you plenty of evidence to prove there is a pre--trib Rapture ----you have given nothing to prove otherwise -----

here is more proof with the scripture ----Where Is The Rapture ---before the tribulation --enough said

FreeGrace2 · Nov 3, 2022

studentoftheword said:

From post#25

The truth of Scripture is that there will be A resurrection of the saved and A resurrection of the unsaved.

Dan 12:2 - Multitudes who sleep in the dust of the earth will awake: some to everlasting life, others to shame and everlasting contempt.
Blue words refer to the resurrection of the saved.
Red wowrds refer to the resurrection of the unsaved.

John 5-
28 “Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice
29 and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned.
Same color code

Acts 24:15 - and I have the same hope in God as these men themselves have, that there will be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.
Same color code.

These 3 verses are clear about only one resurrection for the saved and one for the unsaved.

1 Cor 15:23 - But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
Blue words refer to the fact that Jesus is the FIRST to receive a glorified resurrection body.
Red words refer to the Second Advent. EVERY verse in the NT that mentions the "coming of Jesus" is ALWAYS about the Second Advent, because the OT prophesied about only TWO advents or "comings" of Jesus.

First Advent - Jesus came as a baby to become the Suffering Servant to die for the sins of the human race.
Second Advent - Jesus comes back as King of kings.

So 1 Cor 15:23 very clearly states WHEN the resurrection of the saved will occur: WHEN He comes = Second Advent

The Bible tells us that the two resurrections are 1,000 years apart as well.

Rev 20:4-6
4 I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheadedbecause of their testimony about Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 (The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first resurrection. The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

Blue words refer to martyrs from the Tribulation. Red words refer to the resurrection of the saved.
Orange words refer to the resurrection of the unsaved.

Also if you read Revelation -----you will see that the Church is never mentioned again after Chapter 3 ----this says something as you would think God in trying to save the unsaved would have instructions for His Church to follow to help His cause ---but His Church is never mentioned from Revelation 4 onward --Why because His church was already Raptured -----and is with Him in Heaven -----
I think you forgot to actually read ALL of Revelation. Compare these 2 passages:

1:1-3
1 The revelation from Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place. He made it known by sending his angel to his servant John,
2 who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.

Following this prologue, John delivers letters to 7 CHURCHES, through ch 3.

Then, this:

Rev 22:16 - “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.”

So, what is "for the churches"? The ENTIRE book of Revelation.

Finally, there are NO verses that show Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

Rather, all those verses simply speculate on a rapture. You have NO verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

See above

oyster67 · Nov 3, 2022

studentoftheword said:

Thank you so much for your charts. I anticipate pre-trib rapture also.

I do believe that the Marriage Supper happens in Heaven and before the Second Coming, though. It is the supper of the Birds that happens after Armageddon.

studentoftheword · Nov 3, 2022

FreeGrace2 said:

Rather, all those verses simply speculate on a rapture. You have NO verse showing Jesus taking glorified believers to heaven.

All you do is post streams of scripture giving no evidence to refute the pre--trib Rapture -----your just grasping at straws ------your wishing in one hand and giving no evidence to disprove anything in the other ---

https://www.gotquestions.org/difference-Rapture-Second-Coming.html
What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19).

The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9).

The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18).

The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire

bluto · Nov 3, 2022

oyster67 said:

I can't help it, but do you really think (logically) that the church will be in heaven according to the pre-tribulation rapture attending the Lamb's supper while all hell is breaking loose on earth? This never did make sense to me especially if your enjoying this supper and then we come down to earth via the second coming on a full stomach? It's illogical and God is never illogical.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

oyster67 · Nov 3, 2022

studentoftheword said:

What is the difference between the Rapture and the Second Coming?

The important differences between the rapture and second coming are as follows:

1) At the rapture, believers meet the Lord in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At the second coming, believers return with the Lord to the earth (Revelation 19:14).

2) The second coming occurs after the great and terrible tribulation (Revelation chapters 6–19).

The rapture occurs before the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

3) The rapture is the removal of believers from the earth as an act of deliverance (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17, 5:9).

The second coming includes the removal of unbelievers as an act of judgment (Matthew 24:40-41).

4) The rapture will be secret and instant (1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

The second coming will be visible to all (Revelation 1:7; Matthew 24:29-30).

5) The second coming of Christ will not occur until after certain other end-times events take place (2 Thessalonians 2:4; Matthew 24:15-30; Revelation chapters 6–18).

The rapture is imminent; it could take place at any moment (Titus 2:13; 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18; 1 Corinthians 15:50-54).

Why is it important to keep the rapture and the second coming distinct?

1) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, believers will have to go through the tribulation (1 Thessalonians 5:9; Revelation 3:10).

2) If the rapture and the second coming are the same event, the return of Christ is not imminent—there are many things which must occur before He can return (Matthew 24:4-30).

3) In describing the tribulation period, Revelation chapters 6–19 nowhere mentions the church. During the tribulation—also called “the time of trouble for Jacob” (Jeremiah 30:7)—God will again turn His primary attention to Israel (Romans 11:17-31).

The rapture and second coming are similar but separate events. Both involve Jesus returning. Both are end-times events. However, it is crucially important to recognize the differences. In summary, the rapture is the return of Christ in the clouds to remove all believers from the earth before the time of God’s wrath. The second coming is the return of Christ to the earth to bring the tribulation to an end and to defeat the Antichrist and his evil world empire

Yes and Amen!

oyster67 · Nov 3, 2022

bluto said:

That is exactly what will happen. Your understanding is complete except for thinking anything about it is illogical. Perhaps you need to check your logic if and when it does not line up with Biblical facts.

Locoponydirtman · Nov 3, 2022

You mean besides the fact that it is so far from biblical that i dont even know where it came from?

bluto · Nov 3, 2022

oyster67 said:

And you know this how? Show me the verse or verses (or as you said that line up with the Biblical facts) that a rapture will take place before the great tribulation? I don't see it. In fact I use to believe in the rapture as described by Hal Lindsey and others even before Hal wrote his book, "The Late Great Planet Earth" in 1970. I changed my position because it just did not line up with Scripture. You might want to read what the Apostle Paul said at 2 Timothy 2:16-19.

IN GOD THE SON,
bluto

Inquisitor · Nov 3, 2022

Evmur said:

You stated something that does not appear to be correct.

Paul states that the Anti-Christ will be destroyed when Jesus returns, not before He returns.

2 Thessalonians 2:8
Then that lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will eliminate with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming.

The killer flaw in pre-tribulation rapture doctrine

Well-known member

Senior Member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Banned

Banned

Senior Member

Well-known member

Well-known member

Banned

Well-known member

Banned

Senior Member

Well-known member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Senior Member

Locoponydirtman

Guest

Senior Member

Well-known member