Christians Are Not Sinners

[Runningman]

I explained what the 2 phrases mean in the Greek.


In order for that to be true, then the Bible would teach that you yourself hold your salvation in your own hands. But John 10:28,29 both say that the believer is in God's hands, and NO ONE can snatch them out. So your understanding of "hold firmly" is flawed, as I already showed. It means to possess. But it doesn't mean to literally hold onto it.


Then quote any verse that plainly says that. So far, you haven't.


You have no verse that plainly says what you believe.

otoh, I DO have verses that plainly say that those given eternal life, which is WHEN they become believers, shall never perish.

That's so clear, how can you ignore it?


I recommend that you simply believe the clear words of John 5:24 and 10:28 regarding eternal security.

The believer is eternally secure from the moment he/she becomes a believer. If you don't believe that, you just don't believe what Jesus said.

And you have no excuse.

God's promise of salvation is conditional upon "holding firmly" to the gospel in belief. If one does not hold firmly to believing in the gospel then they have believed in vain. Believing in vain means to have believed "without a cause, purpose; purposelessly, in vain, for nothing." This is talking about true, sincere, genuine belief with the end result being for nothing. That's different than what you're saying.

You seem to be saying that one doesn't have to continue to believe. Paul disagrees in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2.

I do believe the clear words of John 5:24 and John 10:28, but I actually understand them.

In John 5:24, the believing required is an active belief. This verse is only valid as long as the belief remains active or is firmly held onto. If belief becomes inactive then it isn't believing. No one inactively believes anything.

John 10:28 is about eternal life being in God's hands. Once again, I completely agree. No one can wrest control of something out of the hands of God. Jesus gives eternal life to His sheep through their continued belief. This is just a single verse and more context is required.

I would recommend you study when someone gets eternal life. Do you get eternal life right now or do you get eternal life later? Luke 18:30 should get you started on the when eternal life is received.

What happens if a sheep wanders astray?

Consider the below passage and let it sink in for a moment. The very sheep that cannot be "snatched" out of God's hands can wander astray. God will pursue this sheep, of course, but there is a condition once again. If the sheep is found and brought back there is rejoicing. Otherwise, the end of that sheep is that they perish, i.e., not have eternal life.

Matthew 18:10-14
10“Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. 11For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.
12“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

 

[Runningman]

Salvation is irrevocable.

Live your ideal faith.
To save us both time nothing in scripture rightly understood tells us Salvation is revocable.

God's gifts are irrevocable and eternal life is a gift. Have you received the gift of eternal life right now? If yes, please show me a verse that says you posses eternal life as of right now.

I've found there are people who like to insist Christians are not secure eternally in Christ.

I'm not saying any such thing. I am just explaining that what the Bible says. These aren't my words.

Those in Christ are not affected by falsehood.

Those who remain in Christ, yes. Are you aware Jesus what Jesus explained about being the true vine? If one doesn't abide "in Christ" they wither up and are tossed into a fire.

John 15:1-6
1“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Hebrews 3:12-14
12See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

 

[Runningman]

it seems runningman believes Jesus saves us, but thereafter we are saving ourself by remaining saved....in plain words, he is mixed up and I am not bothering anymore because of his belligerent attitude to...it seems....everyone who does not follow his 'teaching'

That's not accurate about what I believe. I believe that salvation is a gift of God, but that our faith is from us. I just follow what the Bible says and I'm always open to showing people what the Bible says if they are open to it too. I am also open to others telling me what the Bible says. I'm always interested in learning different perspectives and opinions and sometimes I will adopt new theologies as my own.

he, among others, do not understand that we cannot save ourselves...but these folks will you that they believe that but then go on to tell you how they do save themselves AFTER Christ has initially saved them

we are told that God will complete the good work He has begun in us.....we began with Him and we are kept by Him and we end with Him...yet others want to assume that burden themself even though it is an impossible task

The verse you mentioned is Philippians 1:6, but the context isn't about salvation. Let's look at it together.

Philippians 1:3-6
3I thank my God every time I remember you. 4In all my prayers for all of you, I always pray with joy 5because of your partnership in the gospel from the first day until now, 6being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus.

This verse actually says the opposite of what you seem to be saying. As you can see, because of their partnership in the gospel "from the first day until now" the good work that Paul says God has begun is referring to their partnership in the gospel. Their continued partnership in the gospel "from the first day until now" is the good work that God begun. It isn't an eternal security or eternal life verse.

and then there are those who insist on calling themself a sinner...shrugs at this point...as they say they are, so shall they remain unless God intervenes uninvited

Paul called himself a sinner after salvation.

when blindness occurs, it seems to do so with anger and obstinate insistance

Let's be clear, those are your words. Out of the abundance of one's heart the mouth speaks.

I am not going to post anymore on this thread. I really think it is a waste of time to go further as it has reached the point of redundancy and insults...no offense to you at all

threads do run out after time especially when someone hijacks them and attacks everyone who does not agree they are some spectacular Bible scholar

these same people usually do this in every thread they are found in

God bless. See you around.

 

[Runningman]

No I sult inferred.😊💞

I've noticed that same pattern as well.

Fruits.

Or none at all. I don't think anyone adamantly displaying opposition to the Gospel, not singling out Running an, rather this blankets all who display the behavior, are in Christ.

I think if they are individuals or individuals with many profiles, they're disruptors. They enjoy sewing discord for lack of anything better to do.

I so hope there's WiFi in Hell. Then they can keep on keeping on and never know the difference.👨‍💻 👩‍💻

Literally nothing you said in this post, which you included my username in, is true about me.

1. I am not opposing the gospel. I think you understand what the gospel is, but the point you're missing is that you don't understand faith is required in the gospel. That's clear.

2. I don't have many profiles. I have a single profile. I think the only way you would believe I'm a "disruptor" and "sewing discord" is if something you're saying is not accurate. You'll forgive me if I am not afraid to kick in the door of a stronghold of heresy and dispel all falsehoods.

3. Wi-Fi in hell? What are you on about here? "They can keep on posting." Kinda sickening you would suggest such a thing about me. I encourage you to represent Christianity better before posting such things. Simply ask yourself, "What would Jesus do?" Praying for you and you're getting a profile follow from me. God bless.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God's promise of salvation is conditional upon "holding firmly" to the gospel in belief.

Please don't make me believe that you are so dense as to NOT GET THIS!! The Greek means to POSSESS. So please stop this nonsense.

How does one "possess the gospel"? By believing in the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.

If one does not hold firmly to believing in the gospel then they have believed in vain.

I told you what "in vain" means in the Greek. It means "without reason".

What does that mean? It means the believing doesn't have an object and purpose, or either. That isn't difficult to grasp.

Believing in vain means to have believed "without a cause, purpose; purposelessly, in vain, for nothing." This is talking about true, sincere, genuine belief with the end result being for nothing. That's different than what you're saying.

Wrong. What is the purpose in trusting in the work of Christ on your behalf? To be saved. That's the purpose of believing in Christ.

You simply remain confused.

You seem to be saying that one doesn't have to continue to believe. Paul disagrees in 1 Corinthians 15:1,2.

When you "hold firmly" to the gospel, which really means to possess the gospel, do YOU have the power to give it back or to someone else?

iow, how much power do you have over something God gave to you? Can you negate what He did for you? Seriously.

I do believe the clear words of John 5:24 and John 10:28, but I actually understand them.

Since we are so far apart on these 2 verses, please tell me what each verse teaches and HOW neither of them conclude that salvation is eternally guaranteed.

In John 5:24, the believing required is an active belief.

Of course.

This verse is only valid as long as the belief remains active or is firmly held onto.

You need to prove your opinion, for that is all it is. And when combined with Jn 10:28, we KNOW that those given eternal life shall never perish. Which destroys your opinion, huh.

If belief becomes inactive then it isn't believing. No one inactively believes anything.

This proves that you do NOT believe John 10:28, for Jesus said those He gives eternal life shall never perish. I can't even imagine how you will twist that verse.

If your opinion was correct, Jesus would have had to include THAT condition in v.28, but He didn't.

John 10:28 is about eternal life being in God's hands. Once again, I completely agree. No one can wrest control of something out of the hands of God. Jesus gives eternal life to His sheep through their continued belief. This is just a single verse and more context is required.

Why are you IGNORING the "shall never perish" part, just after Jesus said "I give them eternal life"??????????? What are you dodging for?

I would recommend you study when someone gets eternal life.

Do you really not understand that John 5:24 IS that verse? Believers possess eternal life. That means they possess eternal life WHEN they become believers.

Or prove me wrong on that.

Do you get eternal life right now or do you get eternal life later?

Jesus answered that question in John 5:24, which you clearly seem to not understand.
And yet you claim you believe that verse. Heck, you don't even understand it. So how can you possibly believe it?

Luke 18:30 should get you started on the when eternal life is received.

Given your very shaky understanding of John 5:24 and 10:28, why should I think you can properly understand ANY verse?

What happens if a sheep wanders astray?

Sheep are idiot animals. Ask any shepherd. Completely senseless. The sheperd goes after them.

However, as Jesus pointed out in John 10, sheep DO KNOW their shepherd.
4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice.
5 But they will never follow a stranger; in fact, they will run away from him because they do not recognize a stranger’s voice.”
14 “I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me—

That's about the only thing sheep aren't stupid about.

Consider this, my friend. When one of the shepherd's stupid sheep wanders off, who's sheep does it become while lost? Is it still the shepherd's, or what?

Consider the below passage and let it sink in for a moment. The very sheep that cannot be "snatched" out of God's hands can wander astray. God will pursue this sheep, of course, but there is a condition once again. If the sheep is found and brought back there is rejoicing. Otherwise, the end of that sheep is that they perish, i.e., not have eternal life.

What you are doing here is very hishonest, or just failure to really understand what Jesus said.

You keep missing the "and shall never perish" part, which occurs just after Jesus said "I give them eternal life".

I suspect you are intentionally ignoring or skipping that part ON PURPOSE, because you KNOW that it proves eternal security and you don't believe what Jesus said. So you ignore it.

Matthew 18:10-14
10“Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. 11For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.
12“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

This has nothing to do with losing salvation. Zero.

You need to do a deep soul search to figure out WHY you won't even acknowledge Jesus' words, "and shall never perish", which immediately follows "I give them eternal life".

Those words prove that from the moment that Jesus gives them eternal life, which Jn 5:24 proves is when they become a believer, the one who has believed is secure forever.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God's gifts are irrevocable and eternal life is a gift. Have you received the gift of eternal life right now? If yes, please show me a verse that says you posses eternal life as of right now.

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

1. whoever believes HAS (possesses-in the present tense) eternal life
2. whoever believes WILL NOT BE judged
3. whoever believes HAS CROSSED OVER from (spiritual) death to life (eternal)

If you don't see eternal security in this verse, it is only because you don't want to. I know you have the IQ to grasp this; I've discussed many things with over over many threads. So you can't hide behind lack of smarts.

The ONLY OTHER explanation is that you don't want to face the truth of eternal security. You are allowing verses that you don't understand to dictate what you will accept, so you have to ignore what Jesus said is such plain and clear language.

 

[EDENgate]

They're not dense. They're purposeful.

 

[Runningman]

John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.

1. whoever believes HAS (possesses-in the present tense) eternal life
2. whoever believes WILL NOT BE judged
3. whoever believes HAS CROSSED OVER from (spiritual) death to life (eternal)

If you don't see eternal security in this verse, it is only because you don't want to. I know you have the IQ to grasp this; I've discussed many things with over over many threads. So you can't hide behind lack of smarts.

The ONLY OTHER explanation is that you don't want to face the truth of eternal security. You are allowing verses that you don't understand to dictate what you will accept, so you have to ignore what Jesus said is such plain and clear language.

You're misunderstanding the application of that verse. I see you aren't going to take what it says at face value or what I am trying to enlighten you with, but perhaps if you did a word study on John 5:24 about what it means then you would see that the kind of believing that Jesus is referring to is an ongoing belief.

Additionally, you aren't understanding the context because you have a bad habit of isolating single verses and using them to support your preferred doctrines. So let me put it here for you.

Jesus is speaking about the future resurrection and judgement. He isn't talking about right here, right now, this very moment they have received eternal life.

Since he's speaking of a future resurrection to life, Jesus is saying that those who believe in Him now, and continue to believe in Him, will have eternal life as a guarantee, a foregone conclusion, at a future resurrection.

John 5:24-30
24“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Now that this has been made clear to you, let's wrap up how the Bible harmonizes.

Luke 18:29,30
29“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”

In a sense, as a guarantee, eternal life begins now, but the gift isn't technically in your hand yet. We'll die one day and some of us will be raised to the eternal life gift and others won't.

This is the Biblical narrative, please try to drop your denominational indoctrinations for a bit and just receive what the Bible is trying to tell you:

Titus 1:2
2in the hope of eternal life, which God, who does not lie, promised before the beginning of time,

Titus 3:7
7so that, having been justified by his grace, we might become heirs having the hope of eternal life.

John 6:54
54Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.

 

[EDENgate]

God's gifts are irrevocable and eternal life is a gift. Have you received the gift of eternal life right now?

Right now?
No.
Many years ago. And that continues eternally. Which includes, right now.💞

If yes, please show me a verse that says you posses eternal life as of right now.

That's the Gospel.

I'm not saying any such thing. I am just explaining that what the Bible says.

No. You don't know what God's word teaches us.
As you insist time and again.

These aren't my words.

They are your words and your thoughts alone.

Those who remain in Christ, yes. Are you aware Jesus what Jesus explained about being the true vine? If one doesn't abide "in Christ" they wither up and are tossed into a fire.

Contextual language.
Eternal Salvation is the seal that insures Christians eternally remain in Christ.

John 15:1-6
1“I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even more fruitful. 3You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.
5“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Context. The full chapter helps with that.
Jesus is speaking of Israel and their bringing forth wild fruit when they delved into paganism .

[7] For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant:

Hebrews 3:12-14
12See to it, brothers and sisters, that none of you has a sinful, unbelieving heart that turns away from the living God. 13But encourage one another daily, as long as it is called “Today,” so that none of you may be hardened by sin’s deceitfulness. 14We have come to share in Christ, if indeed we hold our original conviction firmly to the very end.

That does not deny eternal Salvation,security , in Christ. Paul teaches ES in Hebrews 8 and does not contradict himself.

Just as God cannot deny Himself.

 

[Runningman]

Context. The full chapter helps with that.
Jesus is speaking of Israel and their bringing forth wild fruit when they delved into paganism .

[7] For the vineyard of the LORD of hosts is the house of Israel, and the men of Judah his pleasant plant:

I don’t have time to address each of your points, but the main one I feel led to talk about in regards John 15 is that the Gentiles are grafted into Israel. You would have a very difficult selling the “John 15 only applies to Jews” narrative considering what Paul said.

Romans 11
11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

 

[Runningman]

A bit more time time. I should post the rest of Paul’s talking points from Romans 11.

22Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!

 

[Angela53510]

Someone mentioned this earlier. The Bible speaks of 3 stages of being a Christian. (Catholics get this order mixed up, which contributes to their heresy!)

1. Justification - Roman's 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

This is the first stage. It is monergistic. Meaning, it is totally from God. Dead people (see Eph 2) do not make decisions about whether to come to Christ. But Christ justifies, or makes us righteous. In Koine Greek, justified and righteous have the same root word.

Δικαιωθέντες or dikaiothentes, means "justified"

δικαιος or dikaios means "righteous" "just."

So, we are made righteous or justified by Christ, when he saves us!

2. Sanctified - 1 Cor 1:2 "To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people..." This is an on going process and is synergistic. It means we must cooperate with the work the Holy Spirit. (In Romans 12:2, the word "transformed" is metamorphosis, μεταμορφοῦσθε, which is in the Imperative passive. Imperative is a command, but passive means it is being done to us! So, we are commanded to cooperate with God as he allows the Holy Spirit to change us closer to the image of Christ!)

This stage in our Christian walk lasts from the day we are saved (right after we are justified!) till we die. It is glorious to realize that God is changing us through-out our lives to be more like him. But that does not mean perfect! We still are in these bodies of flesh.

3. Glorified Roman's 8:30 "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified"

This is the final, or last stage. It happens when we die, or if Jesus returns before we die. Right now, this refers mostly to Jesus. But at the Second Coming, all those Jesus justified, (sanctified) will be glorified.

Why is this important to know? Because God justifies us. He made us righteous in Christ! So, are we sinners after we are justified? Positionally, we are saints. We are washed clean, by the blood of the Lamb. We are not sinners, in our spirits.

But we still sin because of flesh. And this is where sanctification becomes so important. The Holy Spirit lives within our temple. We cooperate with God, in the process of transformation. That includes disciplines like reading the Bible, praying, fellowshiping with the Body of Christ. But it also involves suffering and sinning. (See Romans 5:3-5 for suffering!)

Sinning is something we do that is disobedient to God! There are obvious moral codes we can break, but walking away from a time with God, if God scheduled it, is another sort of disobedience. Or putting the world first!

But God, who works all things together for good for those who love Christ (Romans 8:28) while he hates sin, can use our sin to help us learn to overcome sin and wrestle against temptation. We can learn perseverance, as well as deep repentance for habitual sins!

I know when God saved me, I was a wretched sinner. I won't specify here, but suffice it to say, I had been a professional musician, playing in bars and pubs for years, and all that came along with that lifestyle. I had been drinking a lot, but God took that away from me instantly and I have never wanted to drink again, in 42 years. God cleaned up my language quickly. I started reading my Bible & praying daily. I went to three church meetings a week, too! Other things go were very slow to change. It took God 30 years to deal with my temper. But the real point, is that God, through the work of the Holy Spirit, took me from a wild, self-willed person, to a mature Christian. Still imperfect, but keeping my eyes on Jesus, the author & finisher of my faith! (Hebrews 12:2)

So, we really are saints. Romans 1:7 says "And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes on behalf of the saints according to God’s will."

There are many references in the NT to people who believe in Christ being called "saints." But, we are not yet, perfect, even as we cooperate with God to be transformed!

Romans 12:2 "Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind..."

Be sanctified- saved saints growing closer to Christ and becoming more like him!

 

[EDENgate]

I don’t have time to address each of your points, but the main one I feel led to talk about in regards John 15 is that the Gentiles are grafted into Israel. You would have a very difficult selling the “John 15 only applies to Jews” narrative considering what Paul said.

Romans 11
11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
13I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19You will say then, “Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in.” 20Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.

Context.

 

[EDENgate]

Someone mentioned this earlier. The Bible speaks of 3 stages of being a Christian. (Catholics get this order mixed up, which contributes to their heresy!)

1. Justification - Roman's 5:1 "Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ,"

This is the first stage. It is monergistic. Meaning, it is totally from God. Dead people (see Eph 2) do not make decisions about whether to come to Christ. But Christ justifies, or makes us righteous. In Koine Greek, justified and righteous have the same root word.

Δικαιωθέντες or dikaiothentes, means "justified"

δικαιος or dikaios means "righteous" "just."

So, we are made righteous or justified by Christ, when he saves us!

2. Sanctified - 1 Cor 1:2 "To the church of God in Corinth, to those sanctified in Christ Jesus and called to be his holy people..." This is an on going process and is synergistic. It means we must cooperate with the work the Holy Spirit. (In Romans 12:2, the word "transformed" is metamorphosis, μεταμορφοῦσθε, which is in the Imperative passive. Imperative is a command, but passive means it is being done to us! So, we are commanded to cooperate with God as he allows the Holy Spirit to change us closer to the image of Christ!)

This stage in our Christian walk lasts from the day we are saved (right after we are justified!) till we die. It is glorious to realize that God is changing us through-out our lives to be more like him. But that does not mean perfect! We still are in these bodies of flesh.

3. Glorified Roman's 8:30 "And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified"

This is the final, or last stage. It happens when we die, or if Jesus returns before we die. Right now, this refers mostly to Jesus. But at the Second Coming, all those Jesus justified, (sanctified) will be glorified.

Why is this important to know? Because God justifies us. He made us righteous in Christ! So, are we sinners after we are justified? Positionally, we are saints. We are washed clean, by the blood of the Lamb. We are not sinners, in our spirits.

But we still sin because of flesh. And this is where sanctification becomes so important. The Holy Spirit lives within our temple. We cooperate with God, in the process of transformation. That includes disciplines like reading the Bible, praying, fellowshiping with the Body of Christ. But it also involves suffering and sinning. (See Romans 5:3-5 for suffering!)

Sinning is something we do that is disobedient to God! There are obvious moral codes we can break, but walking away from a time with God, if God scheduled it, is another sort of disobedience. Or putting the world first!

But God, who works all things together for good for those who love Christ (Romans 8:28) while he hates sin, can use our sin to help us learn to overcome sin and wrestle against temptation. We can learn perseverance, as well as deep repentance for habitual sins!

I know when God saved me, I was a wretched sinner. I won't specify here, but suffice it to say, I had been a professional musician, playing in bars and pubs for years, and all that came along with that lifestyle. I had been drinking a lot, but God took that away from me instantly and I have never wanted to drink again, in 42 years. God cleaned up my language quickly. I started reading my Bible & praying daily. I went to three church meetings a week, too! Other things go were very slow to change. It took God 30 years to deal with my temper. But the real point, is that God, through the work of the Holy Spirit, took me from a wild, self-willed person, to a mature Christian. Still imperfect, but keeping my eyes on Jesus, the author & finisher of my faith! (Hebrews 12:2)

So, we really are saints. Romans 1:7 says "And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes on behalf of the saints according to God’s will."

There are many references in the NT to people who believe in Christ being called "saints." But, we are not yet, perfect, even as we cooperate with God to be transformed!

Romans 12:2 "Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind..."

Be sanctified- saved saints growing closer to Christ and becoming more like him!

We need a happy dance ''like''. 😉

 

[FreeGrace2]

You're misunderstanding the application of that verse.

Ha. Both Jn 5:24 and 10:28 are too clear to be "misapplied". You are only kidding yourself.

I see you aren't going to take what it says at face value or what I am trying to enlighten you with

Here is the deal: it is YOU who refuses to take Jesus' words at face value.

And I'll prove right here.

John 5:24 teaches that "whoever believes HAS eternal life". The believing and having are in the present tense.

Prove my statement wrong.

John 10:28 teaches that those given eternal life by Jesus SHALL NEVER PERISH. Jesus tells us the result of being given eternal life.

Prove my statement wrong.

but perhaps if you did a word study on John 5:24 about what it means then you would see that the kind of believing that Jesus is referring to is an ongoing belief.

I've already refuted the wrong belief that present tense requires on-going action in order for ongoing results. The eternal life is given WHEN the person BECOMES a believer. At that MOMENT. And Jn 10:28 tells us the result of being given eternal life WHEN a person becomes a believer: they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Prove my statement wrong.

Additionally, you aren't understanding the context because you have a bad habit of isolating single verses and using them to support your preferred doctrines. So let me put it here for you.

Ha. These "single verses" refute your claims.

Jesus is speaking about the future resurrection and judgement.

Then prove that from the context.

He isn't talking about right here, right now, this very moment they have received eternal life.

Of course He was, but you are in total denial about it. He said very clearly that whoever believes HAS (possesses) eternal life. Why in the world are you denying the clear words of Jesus?

Since he's speaking of a future resurrection to life

That didn't come until v.25, so you have no case.

Jesus is saying that those who believe in Him now, and continue to believe in Him, will have eternal life as a guarantee, a foregone conclusion, at a future resurrection.

I am questioning your comprehension skills at this point. Jesus said those who believe possess eternal life, all in the present tense, and they shall never perish.

John 5:24-30
24“Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man.
28“Do not be amazed at this, for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice 29and come out—those who have done what is good will rise to live, and those who have done what is evil will rise to be condemned. 30By myself I can do nothing; I judge only as I hear, and my judgment is just, for I seek not to please myself but him who sent me.

Now that this has been made clear to you, let's wrap up how the Bible harmonizes.

You haven't harmonized anything. All you've done is prove how poorly you comprehend what Jesus said.

 

[EDENgate]

Ha. Both Jn 5:24 and 10:28 are too clear to be "misapplied". You are only kidding yourself.


Here is the deal: it is YOU who refuses to take Jesus' words at face value.

And I'll prove right here.

John 5:24 teaches that "whoever believes HAS eternal life". The believing and having are in the present tense.

Prove my statement wrong.

John 10:28 teaches that those given eternal life by Jesus SHALL NEVER PERISH. Jesus tells us the result of being given eternal life.

Prove my statement wrong.


I've already refuted the wrong belief that present tense requires on-going action in order for ongoing results. The eternal life is given WHEN the person BECOMES a believer. At that MOMENT. And Jn 10:28 tells us the result of being given eternal life WHEN a person becomes a believer: they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Prove my statement wrong.


Ha. These "single verses" refute your claims.


Then prove that from the context.


Of course He was, but you are in total denial about it. He said very clearly that whoever believes HAS (possesses) eternal life. Why in the world are you denying the clear words of Jesus?


That didn't come until v.25, so you have no case.


I am questioning your comprehension skills at this point. Jesus said those who believe possess eternal life, all in the present tense, and they shall never perish.


You haven't harmonized anything. All you've done is prove how poorly you comprehend what Jesus said.

I read ForestGreenCook often say, harmonize the scriptures.

However, someone insisting adverse doctrine bears harmony in the words of God and they're trying to enlighten you to their consistently wrong boldly adverse perspective, are following the wrong light.

Run away. Run away.🐎🐎😉💞🕊️

 

[FreeGrace2]

I read ForestGreenCook often say, harmonize the scriptures.

However, someone insisting adverse doctrine bears harmony in the words of God and they're trying to enlighten you to their consistently wrong boldly adverse perspective, are following the wrong light.

Exactly! And Runningman proved that he is in the wrong light in a previous post when he "explained" John 10:28 but completely left out the phrase "and they shall never perish". Ignored it completely.

Run away. Run away.🐎🐎😉💞🕊️

Not me. I fight for the truth. It's Runningman who ran away from the truth of what Jesus said.

I guess he just couldn't face it.

 

[EDENgate]

Exactly! And Runningman proved that he is in the wrong light in a previous post when he "explained" John 10:28 but completely left out the phrase "and they shall never perish". Ignored it completely.


Not me. I fight for the truth. It's Runningman who ran away from the truth of what Jesus said.

I guess he just couldn't face it.

Sometimes we have to accept what someone is telling us time and again.

They're not Christian. They're lying.

 

[VARob]

Sometimes we have to accept what someone is telling us time and again.

They're not Christian. They're lying.

Who are you accusing of not being a Christian and lying?

Just because someone disagrees with you does not mean they are not a Christian, and lying.

 

[Runningman]

Ha. Both Jn 5:24 and 10:28 are too clear to be "misapplied". You are only kidding yourself.


Here is the deal: it is YOU who refuses to take Jesus' words at face value.

And I'll prove right here.

John 5:24 teaches that "whoever believes HAS eternal life". The believing and having are in the present tense.

Prove my statement wrong.

John 10:28 teaches that those given eternal life by Jesus SHALL NEVER PERISH. Jesus tells us the result of being given eternal life.

Prove my statement wrong.


I've already refuted the wrong belief that present tense requires on-going action in order for ongoing results. The eternal life is given WHEN the person BECOMES a believer. At that MOMENT. And Jn 10:28 tells us the result of being given eternal life WHEN a person becomes a believer: they SHALL NEVER PERISH.

Prove my statement wrong.


Ha. These "single verses" refute your claims.


Then prove that from the context.


Of course He was, but you are in total denial about it. He said very clearly that whoever believes HAS (possesses) eternal life. Why in the world are you denying the clear words of Jesus?


That didn't come until v.25, so you have no case.


I am questioning your comprehension skills at this point. Jesus said those who believe possess eternal life, all in the present tense, and they shall never perish.


You haven't harmonized anything. All you've done is prove how poorly you comprehend what Jesus said.

Jesus said the promise is for the one who believes. The one who stop believing is not someone who believes.