Christians Are Not Sinners

[Runningman]

I'm saying you misunderstand the Gospel.

Salvation is not conditional. We do nothing to attain it. And we can do nothing to lose it. Else,God,who called us to him and knew us before creation, didn't know enough to realize we'd one day do something to prove him wrong and that we are unworthy of his grace so as to have him need cancel and reverse all that he did in redeeming us.

I don’t like to assign to others what they understand and don’t understand, but clearly 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 shows that holding firmly to the gospel is required to be saved. Not holding firmly to the gospel is believing in vain. I’ve firmly grasped that.

Let’s be clear. Paul said it’s possible to believe in the gospel in vain. Let that sink in for a moment.

So let me ask you, then. How does one believe in the gospel, but it produces no result or is useless?

 

[Runningman]

You are misreading or misunderstanding the verses.

The English words "in vain" in the Greek means "without reason". iow, all believing has an object and purpose. If one's object of faith or purpose of that faith is anything other than the Lord Jesus Christ (object) and the purpose is eternal salvation, they ARE believing in vain, or without reason.

The “in vain” means this:

G1500 eiké (BibleHub Link)
Strong's Concordance

​

eiké: without cause or reason, vainly
Original Word: εἰκῇ
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: eiké
Phonetic Spelling: (i-kay')
Definition: without cause or reason, vainly
Usage: without a cause, purpose; purposelessly, in vain, for nothing.

The bottom line is that Paul said it’s possible to believe in vain if they don’t hold firmly to the word preached which is the gospel. In other words, if they stop holding firmly to the gospel then it was all for nothing. It was vain. I’m understanding it correctly.

 

[FreeGrace2]

I don’t like to assign to others what they understand and don’t understand, but clearly 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 shows that holding firmly to the gospel is required to be saved. Not holding firmly to the gospel is believing in vain. I’ve firmly grasped that.

Actually, your firm grasp is in vain. As I explained in another thread.

Let’s be clear. Paul said it’s possible to believe in the gospel in vain. Let that sink in for a moment.

Let me help you let it sink in for that moment.

The Greek means "without reason". So, the question is; how does one believe "without reason", or "in vain"?

Easy. They believe things OTHER THAN saving faith.

For example, they can believe that Jesus was a human being and lived in Palestine 2,000 years ago and was a good teacher. believing that isn't saving faith. Anyone who thinks that believing this will save them is thinking in vain.

Faith requires two things.

An object which to believe in.
A purpose for putting your faith in that object.

If the object of one's faith is the Lord (Deity) Jesus (humanity) Christ (Savior), and the purpose of one's faith is eternal salvation, THEN and ONLY THEN do they have saving faith. And they POSSESS (hold firmly) the gospel.

So let me ask you, then. How does one believe in the gospel, but it produces no result or is useless?

Easy again. The believer either isn't discipled properly by being taught all that Jesus taught His disciples, so the person isn't able to grow up spiritually, OR, they, like Simon the sorcerer, are arrogant and carnal, and have other agendas.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The “in vain” means this:

G1500 eiké (BibleHub Link)
Strong's Concordance

​

eiké: without cause or reason, vainly
Original Word: εἰκῇ
Part of Speech: Adverb
Transliteration: eiké
Phonetic Spelling: (i-kay')
Definition: without cause or reason, vainly
Usage: without a cause, purpose; purposelessly, in vain, for nothing.

The bottom line is that Paul said it’s possible to believe in vain if they don’t hold firmly to the word preached which is the gospel. In other words, if they stop holding firmly to the gospel then it was all for nothing. It was vain. I’m understanding it correctly.

Thank you for agreeing with my explanation of what "in vain" means in the Greek. I appreciate that.

But you still don't understand. To "hold firmly" means to possess. When one believes the gospel, they POSSESS the gospel.

Paul did NOT say that one can "dis-possess" the gospel, if that's what you think.

You guys seem to want to go to any lengths to dismiss the clear words of Jesus. Why is that?

John 5:24 whoever believes POSSESSES eternal life. That means from the moment one becomes a believer
John 10:28 those given eternal life (Jn 5:24) shall never perish.

It can't get any more clear.

EVERYONE who believes the gospel receives eternal life at that moment. And Jesus was clear: they shall never perish.

You are disagreeing with the Lord Jesus. What on earth would possess any believer to do that?

 

[Polar]

Never said that. Again that's not thinking spiritually. If Jesus has delivered me from sin and stays with me if I fail.. I would want to love Him back. Not that I HAVE to.. but that I WANT to out of freedom back to the freedom giver.

You cannot earn a place in heaven. Completely impossible.

Believer sin all the time.. if not in deed in mind. That's just a fact.

We can sin less.. but never be sinless until in heaven.

But.. to stop going on this round about where neither of us are gonna change our positions.. I am going to agree to disagree with you and leave it.

did someone say we earn a place in heaven? at least that is correct

no one said we stop sinning...that is a red herring that was introduced at the beginning of the op and it persists either because people have poor reading skills/comprehension, or, they actually somehow are making excuses...you don't have to make excuses. God knows all about lives and while we will never be perfect on this earth, our sins have been cleansed by the blood of Christ and God does not call us sinners

people are free to call themself a sinner, but that is not what scripture says about us. Salvation is not a revolving door. We do not loose salvation when we sin. We know that sin harms our relationship with God because of our conscience but we can go to God the moment we do sin or any time thereafter and ask for forgiveness and strength. God gives both

I am saddened that you seem to believe that those in Christ sin all the time. Perhaps so some research on the word 'sanctification'

This is what you said:

There is entrance to heaven and extra rewards in heaven for faithful believers. Entrance requires belief in Jesus initially for eternal salvation. Rewards requires continual faithfulness.

Do you not understand that it is God who keeps us? perhaps do some research on that as well. We are not conditionally saved but you seem to think we are. This, is not a biblical concept, but rather a works based understanding of salvation.

I am fine with just not responding further. You are free to believe what you wish, and then there is biblical belief.

Go ahead and choose which one you wish to follow for your life.

 

[Polar]

wattie said:
There is entrance to heaven and extra rewards in heaven for faithful believers. Entrance requires belief in Jesus initially for eternal salvation. Rewards requires continual faithfulness.

Go ahead and give it a try, and see what God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11) feels like. Then get back to us.

Why some believers think mocking biblical teaching is OK is beyond me.

The whole point that Paul was making in Romans 6 is that believers CAN do these horrible things, but SHOULDN'T. Or did you seem to miss that?

Read Eph 5:1-5. Same point. Believers are NOT TO commit immorality, impurity, or greed. He even says why they shouldn't. "It isn't proper for God's holy people".

He certainly didn't say that believers aren't able to do these things, but that they shouldn't do them.

Stop mocking the Bible. It won't bode well for you.

you are barking up the wrong tree

so typical of you to create an ad hominin approach full of misunderstanding and downright untruths

Why some believers think mocking biblical teaching is OK is beyond me.

well then stop it

take your own warning to heart because it might do you some good ....maybe....perhaps....well....

 

[FreeGrace2]

you are barking up the wrong tree

so typical of you to create an ad hominin approach full of misunderstanding and downright untruths

well then stop it

take your own warning to heart because it might do you some good ....maybe....perhaps....well....

Are you really that disconnected from these discussions?

Sad. Show me my ad hominem approach, and my "downright untruths". Please.

 

[Runningman]

Thank you for agreeing with my explanation of what "in vain" means in the Greek. I appreciate that.

But you still don't understand. To "hold firmly" means to possess. When one believes the gospel, they POSSESS the gospel.

Paul did NOT say that one can "dis-possess" the gospel, if that's what you think.

You guys seem to want to go to any lengths to dismiss the clear words of Jesus. Why is that?

John 5:24 whoever believes POSSESSES eternal life. That means from the moment one becomes a believer
John 10:28 those given eternal life (Jn 5:24) shall never perish.

It can't get any more clear.

EVERYONE who believes the gospel receives eternal life at that moment. And Jesus was clear: they shall never perish.

You are disagreeing with the Lord Jesus. What on earth would possess any believer to do that?

Paul equated believing in vain to not holding firmly to the gospel. It means if you stop believing then you aren’t holding firmly to the gospel and therefore the gospel can’t save you. Endurance and continued faith in the gospel are required. If you believe Jesus and Paul are in harmony on this point, like I do, then there’s no other possible conclusion than failing to believe and continue in the faith results in a loss of salvation.

I recommend you start with Matthew and read up to the end of John with this fact in mind.

 

[wattie]

did someone say we earn a place in heaven? at least that is correct

no one said we stop sinning...that is a red herring that was introduced at the beginning of the op and it persists either because people have poor reading skills/comprehension, or, they actually somehow are making excuses...you don't have to make excuses. God knows all about lives and while we will never be perfect on this earth, our sins have been cleansed by the blood of Christ and God does not call us sinners

people are free to call themself a sinner, but that is not what scripture says about us. Salvation is not a revolving door. We do not loose salvation when we sin. We know that sin harms our relationship with God because of our conscience but we can go to God the moment we do sin or any time thereafter and ask for forgiveness and strength. God gives both

I am saddened that you seem to believe that those in Christ sin all the time. Perhaps so some research on the word 'sanctification'

This is what you said:



Do you not understand that it is God who keeps us? perhaps do some research on that as well. We are not conditionally saved but you seem to think we are. This, is not a biblical concept, but rather a works based understanding of salvation.

I am fine with just not responding further. You are free to believe what you wish, and then there is biblical belief.

Go ahead and choose which one you wish to follow for your life.

Oh just to clarify.. there is no condition on salvation .. only initially believing in Jesus.

There is condition on having extra rewards in heaven for the faithful. But if a believer isn't faithful they still have entrance because they believed in Jesus.

So it's still underlying unconditional.

 

[Runningman]

Easy again. The believer either isn't discipled properly by being taught all that Jesus taught His disciples, so the person isn't able to grow up spiritually, OR, they, like Simon the sorcerer, are arrogant and carnal, and have other agendas.

Paul said nothing of the sort.

Paul’s subject is salvation, at the beginning of 1 Cor. 15, via belief in the gospel and his supporting narrative is that if it isn’t held onto firmly then it’s believing in vain. The believing in vain is related directly to salvation. This is how the English language works.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Paul equated believing in vain to not holding firmly to the gospel.

I explained what the 2 phrases mean in the Greek.

It means if you stop believing then you aren’t holding firmly to the gospel and therefore the gospel can’t save you.

In order for that to be true, then the Bible would teach that you yourself hold your salvation in your own hands. But John 10:28,29 both say that the believer is in God's hands, and NO ONE can snatch them out. So your understanding of "hold firmly" is flawed, as I already showed. It means to possess. But it doesn't mean to literally hold onto it.

Endurance and continued faith in the gospel are required.

Then quote any verse that plainly says that. So far, you haven't.

If you believe Jesus and Paul are in harmony on this point, like I do, then there’s no other possible conclusion than failing to believe and continue in the faith results in a loss of salvation.

You have no verse that plainly says what you believe.

otoh, I DO have verses that plainly say that those given eternal life, which is WHEN they become believers, shall never perish.

That's so clear, how can you ignore it?

I recommend you start with Matthew and read up to the end of John with this fact in mind.

I recommend that you simply believe the clear words of John 5:24 and 10:28 regarding eternal security.

The believer is eternally secure from the moment he/she becomes a believer. If you don't believe that, you just don't believe what Jesus said.

And you have no excuse.

 

[EDENgate]

I don’t like to assign to others what they understand and don’t understand, but clearly 1 Corinthians 15:1,2 shows that holding firmly to the gospel is required to be saved. Not holding firmly to the gospel is believing in vain. I’ve firmly grasped that.

Let’s be clear. Paul said it’s possible to believe in the gospel in vain. Let that sink in for a moment.

So let me ask you, then. How does one believe in the gospel, but it produces no result or is useless?

This forum examples people assigning to others what others believe someone does or does not understand.

There is even an option to assign an emoji accord to those opinions, ''likes''.

Salvation is irrevocable.

Live your ideal faith.
To save us both time nothing in scripture rightly understood tells us Salvation is revocable.

I've found there are people who like to insist Christians are not secure eternally in Christ.
May they live to their last breath assured in their own ideology.

Those in Christ are not affected by falsehood.

It is Eternal Irrevocable Salvation.
Jesus died and sealed us for the last day . And no thing nor anyone overcomes him or that fact.

Have a great weekend.

 

[Polar]

Oh just to clarify.. there is no condition on salvation .. only initially believing in Jesus.

There is condition on having extra rewards in heaven for the faithful. But if a believer isn't faithful they still have entrance because they believed in Jesus.

So it's still underlying unconditional.

again, do yourself a favor and look up sanctification.

a person who volunteers that they are a believer and yet do not live in accordance with that belief is not only not going to get all these rewards you keep mentioning, but they are also not saved

and I am not talking about 'works' even though the Bible does, but not to earn salvation

 

[Polar]

Are you really that disconnected from these discussions?

Sad. Show me my ad hominem approach, and my "downright untruths". Please.

another ad hominin post towards me

I'm not surprised that you seem to be void of understanding on that as well as you keep doing it

this thread is not about you even though you would like it to be so

you should go for a walk, maybe do some good deeds for people while out...like helping old ladies cross the street...you know...be nice to people as a Christian

you certainly have not shown the ability to do that here

and by the way, since you are so aggressive and constantly misrepresent what people say, you are best just left to your own devices

 

[Polar]

This forum examples people assigning to others what others believe someone does or does not understand.

There is even an option to assign an emoji accord to those opinions, ''likes''.

Salvation is irrevocable.

Live your ideal faith.
To save us both time nothing in scripture rightly understood tells us Salvation is revocable.

I've found there are people who like to insist Christians are not secure eternally in Christ.
May they live to their last breath assured in their own ideology.

Those in Christ are not affected by falsehood.

It is Eternal Irrevocable Salvation.
Jesus died and sealed us for the last day . And no thing nor anyone overcomes him or that fact.

Have a great weekend.

it seems runningman believes Jesus saves us, but thereafter we are saving ourself by remaining saved....in plain words, he is mixed up and I am not bothering anymore because of his belligerent attitude to...it seems....everyone who does not follow his 'teaching'

he, among others, do not understand that we cannot save ourselves...but these folks will you that they believe that but then go on to tell you how they do save themselves AFTER Christ has initially saved them

we are told that God will complete the good work He has begun in us.....we began with Him and we are kept by Him and we end with Him...yet others want to assume that burden themself even though it is an impossible task

and then there are those who insist on calling themself a sinner...shrugs at this point...as they say they are, so shall they remain unless God intervenes uninvited

when blindness occurs, it seems to do so with anger and obstinate insistance

I am not going to post anymore on this thread. I really think it is a waste of time to go further as it has reached the point of redundancy and insults...no offense to you at all

threads do run out after time especially when someone hijacks them and attacks everyone who does not agree they are some spectacular Bible scholar

these same people usually do this in every thread they are found in

 

[wattie]

again, do yourself a favor and look up sanctification.

a person who volunteers that they are a believer and yet do not live in accordance with that belief is not only not going to get all these rewards you keep mentioning, but they are also not saved

and I am not talking about 'works' even though the Bible does, but not to earn salvation

All right then.. I will disagree and leave it now.

 

[EDENgate]

it seems runningman believes Jesus saves us, but thereafter we are saving ourself by remaining saved....in plain words, he is mixed up and I am not bothering anymore because of his belligerent attitude to...it seems....everyone who does not follow his 'teaching'

he, among others, do not understand that we cannot save ourselves...but these folks will you that they believe that but then go on to tell you how they do save themselves AFTER Christ has initially saved them

we are told that God will complete the good work He has begun in us.....we began with Him and we are kept by Him and we end with Him...yet others want to assume that burden themself even though it is an impossible task

and then there are those who insist on calling themself a sinner...shrugs at this point...as they say they are, so shall they remain unless God intervenes uninvited

when blindness occurs, it seems to do so with anger and obstinate insistance

I am not going to post anymore on this thread. I really think it is a waste of time to go further as it has reached the point of redundancy and insults...no offense to you at all

threads do run out after time especially when someone hijacks them and attacks everyone who does not agree they are some spectacular Bible scholar

these same people usually do this in every thread they are found in

No I sult inferred.

I've noticed that same pattern as well.

Fruits.

Or none at all. I don't think anyone adamantly displaying opposition to the Gospel,not singling out Running an, rather this blankets all who display the behavior, are in Christ.

I think if they are individuals or individuals with many profiles, they're disruptors. They enjoy sewing discord for lack of anything better to do.

I so hope there's WiFi in Hell. Then they can keep on keeping on and never know the difference.

 

[Polar]

I so hope there's WiFi in Hell. Then they can keep on keeping on and never know the difference.

there's no water though

I'm not sure whether to laugh or give one of these faces :

I am sure that I do not have all understanding, but the Bible is plain that at some point, you need to walk away.

walking......

 

[EDENgate]

there's no water though

I'm not sure whether to laugh or give one of these faces :

I am sure that I do not have all understanding, but the Bible is plain that at some point, you need to walk away.

walking......

No,no water but I'm sure Satan can make it work.

Before,reading certain posts, my reaction was .

Then, when it became obvious no manner of correction, not even caring to seek the Bible passages and read in context for right understanding,was being done, I resort to wry humor.

Because the Bible is always true.
We may not want anyone to perish in their ignorance but God knows who shall.

And when there is a concerted effort to that end demonstrated it tells me that is a message to pay attention to in itself. I.E , they're happy to do so because they clearly don't believe any of the Bible is true.
They , intended as being an impersonal reference.

And the truth of and within scripture tells us what we're seeing. Natural minds proving what God warned of them.

I hope this thread continues with good posts and Christian community and sharing above and beyond the opposers to God's Good News.

Blessed Be to you and yours. And thank you for sharing your wisdom with us.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Are you really that disconnected from these discussions?

Sad. Show me my ad hominem approach, and my "downright untruths". Please.

another ad hominin post towards me

No, you need to look up the meaning of "ad hominem". I ASKED you to show me what you think is an ad hominem in my post.

All you did is to re-make that claim again.

I'm not surprised that you seem to be void of understanding on that as well as you keep doing it

Well, now. That's an ad hominem. So you DO know what it is. But you refuse to show me where I made one toward you.

this thread is not about you even though you would like it to be so

Another stupid ad hominem.

you should go for a walk, maybe do some good deeds for people while out...like helping old ladies cross the street...you know...be nice to people as a Christian

This is more like nasty snark than ad hominem. But it is clear that you can do both.

you certainly have not shown the ability to do that here

OK. Now we're back to good ol' ad hominem.

and by the way, since you are so aggressive and constantly misrepresent what people say, you are best just left to your own devices

Another challenge to the ad hominem champ. Prove your claim if you can.