Christians Are Not Sinners

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
However, the key here is how he described himself as the worst of sinners in the present tense. Not past tense from a past life.

You can play word tense games all day,

These aren't "word games".

but it is clear that He is referring to what He did in the past.

All of Romans 7 is in the present tense.

Do you know the story of Saul before he became Paul (a new person in Christ)?

Of course I do. His extreme legalism and arrogance as a Pharisee saw himself as a much better than most people.

I believe that legalism and arrogance are much worse sins than simple immorality, but I'm aware that for most believers, they are more offended by immorality than legalism/arrogance.

I guess one reason is that legalism is common across evangelicalism.

 

[Locoponydirtman]

FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said:
Paul called himself the "worst of sinners", and in the present tense. You don't have an argument.

You are not a mind reader, so you have no idea what he actually was thinking about. However, the key here is how he described himself as the worst of sinners in the present tense. Not past tense from a past lif

Because he was. He didn't turn in his membership card.

This is what happens when you bother to read the scriptures. Folks will gnash their teeth at ya.
The fact is we are both sinner and saint. Sinner because we live in this flesh that is trying to drag us to the grave, saint because Jesus covers us with his righteousness.

 

[FreeGrace2]

This is what happens when you bother to read the scriptures. Folks will gnash their teeth at ya.
The fact is we are both sinner and saint. Sinner because we live in this flesh that is trying to drag us to the grave, saint because Jesus covers us with his righteousness.

Very well said!! Thanks.

 

[oyster67]

That is why entrance to heaven isn't about continual faithfulness.

Romans 2
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

We are not saved by our works, but we must abide in the Vine. When we do, the fruit will be evident.

 

[Runningman]

Does that mean we labor to get God to keep his word?

That question mischaracterizes what is happening. God’s promises in the Bible are always conditional. If you do this then God will do that, if you don’t do this then God won’t do that, if you stop doing this then God will stop doing that. That’s the narrative from Genesis to Revelation.

 

[oyster67]

That question mischaracterizes what is happening. God’s promises in the Bible are always conditional. If you do this then God will do that, if you don’t do this then God won’t do that, if you stop doing this then God will stop doing that. That’s the narrative from Genesis to Revelation.

God will not be mocked or taken advantage of.

 

[Polar]

OK so I guess you are meaning God drives a person to be faithful once they have been converted. I agree with that.

But continued faithfulness not a work? Not so sure about that.

No one can keep up a mouse wheel of effort for salvation because if they don't fail in the deeds, they do in their minds. Because they are human. Not God.. not 'little gods'.

That is why entrance to heaven isn't about continual faithfulness.

End

gross misapprehension here

smh

 

[Polar]

There is entrance to heaven and extra rewards in heaven for faithful believers. Entrance requires belief in Jesus initially for eternal salvation. Rewards requires continual faithfulness.

riiiight

so you can sin like a boatload of pagan sailors on shore leave for the first time in three years in-between

 

[oyster67]

Hebrews 12:14

“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:”

 

[wattie]

riiiight

so you can sin like a boatload of pagan sailors on shore leave for the first time in three years in-between

Never said that. Again that's not thinking spiritually. If Jesus has delivered me from sin and stays with me if I fail.. I would want to love Him back. Not that I HAVE to.. but that I WANT to out of freedom back to the freedom giver.

You cannot earn a place in heaven. Completely impossible.

Believer sin all the time.. if not in deed in mind. That's just a fact.

We can sin less.. but never be sinless until in heaven.

But.. to stop going on this round about where neither of us are gonna change our positions.. I am going to agree to disagree with you and leave it.

 

[EDENgate]

That question mischaracterizes what is happening. God’s promises in the Bible are always conditional. If you do this then God will do that, if you don’t do this then God won’t do that, if you stop doing this then God will stop doing that. That’s the narrative from Genesis to Revelation.

Salvation is not conditional. We are saved by God's grace. Not of ourselves so that none may boast.

It is therein contrary to that free eternal gift of God,by God's choice in calling us to him to imagine we can then change his mind by something we do or do not do.

Conditional Salvation is not Salvation.

 

[Runningman]

Salvation is not conditional. We are saved by God's grace. Not of ourselves so that none may boast.

It is therein contrary to that free eternal gift of God,by God's choice in calling us to him to imagine we can then change his mind by something we do or do not do.

Conditional Salvation is not Salvation.

God’s grace is accessed if you have faith and keep faith. The part that isn’t of ourselves is the salvation. Our faith is trusting God and it’s a choice, but we cannot afford ourselves God’s grace or salvation.

Romans 5:1,2
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

Conditional salvation is the only kind of salvation there is. I wouldn’t be willing to test what happens if I decided to do everything in my power to indoctrinate myself enough to lose faith in Christ.

Would you or anyone else be willing to test this theory about what happens upon losing faith? That’s a rhetorical question. My point is that it’s dangerous.

 

[EDENgate]

God’s grace is accessed if you have faith and keep faith. The part that isn’t of ourselves is the salvation. Our faith is trusting God and it’s a choice, but we cannot afford ourselves God’s grace or salvation.

Romans 5:1,2
1Therefore, since we have been justified through faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, 2through whom we have gained access by faith into this grace in which we stand. And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.

Conditional salvation is the only kind of salvation there is. I wouldn’t be willing to test what happens if I decided to do everything in my power to indoctrinate myself enough to lose faith in Christ.

Would you or anyone else be willing to test this theory about what happens upon losing faith? That’s a rhetorical question. My point is that it’s dangerous.

You'll forgive me when I say your faith is not in the Gospel Jesus died to seal.

 

[Runningman]

You'll forgive me when I say your faith is not in the Gospel Jesus died to seal.

I’m just discussing what the Bible says. Are you saying I don’t have faith in Christ’s gospel?

Conditional salvation in the gospel through continued faith:

1 Corinthians 15
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

 

[EDENgate]

I’m just discussing what the Bible says. Are you saying I don’t have faith in Christ’s gospel?

Conditional salvation in the gospel through continued faith:

1 Corinthians 15
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

I'm saying you misunderstand the Gospel.

Salvation is not conditional. We do nothing to attain it. And we can do nothing to lose it. Else,God,who called us to him and knew us before creation, didn't know enough to realize we'd one day do something to prove him wrong and that we are unworthy of his grace so as to have him need cancel and reverse all that he did in redeeming us.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Romans 2
5But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God; 6Who will render to every man according to his deeds: 7To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life: 8But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath, 9Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile; 10But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

The bolded verse, that being v.7, is a verse about being perfect in order to earn eternal life. And Paul went on to say that no human being is perfect. Only the God-Man, Jesus Christ is perfect, and therefore qualified to die in our place for our sins.

So please don't use Rom 2:6-8 as any kind of guide for how to receive eternal life. Rom 3:9, 20, 23 and Gal 2:16.

We are not saved by our works, but we must abide in the Vine. When we do, the fruit will be evident.

When Jesus was teaching His 11 remaining disciples in John 15, the subject wasn't about salvation, but about bearing fruit. His point was that in order to bear fruit, the believer must abide in Him. A clear term of fellowship, which is a reciprocal relationship, as Jesus noted very clearly by the phrase "abide in Me, and I in you".

 

[FreeGrace2]

wattie said:
There is entrance to heaven and extra rewards in heaven for faithful believers. Entrance requires belief in Jesus initially for eternal salvation. Rewards requires continual faithfulness.

riiiight

so you can sin like a boatload of pagan sailors on shore leave for the first time in three years in-between

Go ahead and give it a try, and see what God's painful discipline (Heb 12:11) feels like. Then get back to us.

Why some believers think mocking biblical teaching is OK is beyond me.

The whole point that Paul was making in Romans 6 is that believers CAN do these horrible things, but SHOULDN'T. Or did you seem to miss that?

Read Eph 5:1-5. Same point. Believers are NOT TO commit immorality, impurity, or greed. He even says why they shouldn't. "It isn't proper for God's holy people".

He certainly didn't say that believers aren't able to do these things, but that they shouldn't do them.

Stop mocking the Bible. It won't bode well for you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Hebrews 12:14

“Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:”

I'm curious how you understand this verse.

I see it as having two messages.

First message is that if believers don't live holy lives, no one will see Christ in them. Much like James' point in 2:14-26.

Second message is that if believers don'y live holy lives, they themselves will be out of fellowship with the Lord.

 

[FreeGrace2]

God’s grace is accessed if you have faith and keep faith.

Do you have a verse that says salvation is maintained by "keeping the faith" or "continuing to believe"?

 

[FreeGrace2]

I’m just discussing what the Bible says. Are you saying I don’t have faith in Christ’s gospel?

Conditional salvation in the gospel through continued faith:

1 Corinthians 15
1Now, brothers, I want to remind you of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, and in which you stand firm. 2By this gospel you are saved, if you hold firmly to the word I preached to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4that He was buried, that He was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures,

You are misreading or misunderstanding the verses.

The English words "in vain" in the Greek means "without reason". iow, all believing has an object and purpose. If one's object of faith or purpose of that faith is anything other than the Lord Jesus Christ (object) and the purpose is eternal salvation, they ARE believing in vain, or without reason.