Christians Are Not Sinners

[EDENgate]

If you “sometimes sin,” you’re a sinner.


I believe that wonderful truth. 1 John 3:1-2


Or not..


I believe what God says about us, that we are declared righteous through Jesus Christ.

No you don't.

 

[VARob]

No you don't.

You're in no position to tell me what I believe.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
FreeGrace2 said:
Paul called himself the "worst of sinners", and in the present tense. You don't have an argument.

You are not a mind reader, so you have no idea what he actually was thinking about. However, the key here is how he described himself as the worst of sinners in the present tense. Not past tense from a past lif

Paul also in present tense described himself as a Pharisee.

Because he was. He didn't turn in his membership card.

 

[Polar]

FreeGrace2 said:
Paul called himself the "worst of sinners", and in the present tense. You don't have an argument.

You are not a mind reader, so you have no idea what he actually was thinking about. However, the key here is how he described himself as the worst of sinners in the present tense. Not past tense from a past life.


I identify as a human being. "All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". Rom 3:23

I identify as a new creature (2 Cor 5:17), having been born again (1 pet 1:23) and sealed with the Holy Spirit (Eph 1:13) as a child of God (John 1:12, Gal 3:26).

So I find this law at work: Although I want to do good, evil is right there with me. 22 For in my inner being I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law at work in me, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within me. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body that is subject to death? 25 Thanks be to God, who delivers me through Jesus Christ our Lord Romans 7:24

the key is to not take verses out of context to try and make them say what you want them to say. Paul states he has been delivered from sin through Christ

Paul rejoiced that ALL his sins were forgiven. Do you know why he called himself the worst of sinners? it was because of his desire to kill believers. If he were still a sinner, he could not be a believer in Christ.

you can make scripture say practically anything when you take verses out of context

originally, these letters of Paul were not chopped up into chapters and numbered verses. that might make for easy reference, but it does not make for correct interpretation/understanding if a person ignores what is plainly written AROUND and passage or verse

context

 

[Polar]

and by the way, Grace is not really free. God paid a huge price for it in sending His Son and Jesus paid the final price for the redemption of our souls and the renewal of our spirits.

GRACE IS MOST CERTAINLY NOT FREE!!!

Grace means unmerited favor...in other words we cannot earn it.

 

[VARob]

you can make scripture say practically anything when you take verses out of context

...indeed you can....

 

[Polar]

So, it seems to me that there are those that can see their sin, because of the light, and those blind to it, because they are in darkness.

Thing is, God no longer 'sees' our sin because of the shed blood of His only Son, the Lord Jesus Christ.

those in darkness are obviously not saved/believers

it may interest you to know that no one on this thread has declared sinlessness. the only people who have brought that up, are those who prefer to call themselves sinners rather than declare that they are righteous and no longer sinners. this, does not mean we will never sin again...this means our new preference is to please God and He knows we will sometimes sin.

BIG difference between living in sin, committing the same sins over and over with no change in how a person lives their life.

9For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, 10so that you may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord and may please Him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, 11being strengthened with all power according to His glorious might so that you may have full endurance and patience, and joyfully 12giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified you to share in the inheritance of the saints in the light.

13He has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and brought us into the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins. Colossians 1

 

[FreeGrace2]

context

Read Romans 7. Also in the present tense. Paul continued to struggle with his sin nature.

But probably not in the way most people would think. I'm sure he didn't struggle with immorality, since he was raised by a Pharisee to become one. His struggle most likely was with arrogance, which is much worse than immorality.

 

[FreeGrace2]

and by the way, Grace is not really free. God paid a huge price for it in sending His Son and Jesus paid the final price for the redemption of our souls and the renewal of our spirits.

GRACE IS MOST CERTAINLY NOT FREE!!!

Grace means unmerited favor...in other words we cannot earn it.

Listen up, buttercup.

When man speaks of grace, he is speaking from the perspective of man. So, to man, grace IS free.

Do you believe that you must earn salvation? yes or no

 

[Mem]

it may interest you to know that no one on this thread has declared sinlessness.

Why have you presumed I lack this knowledge?

 

[Polar]

Listen up, buttercup.

When man speaks of grace, he is speaking from the perspective of man. So, to man, grace IS free.

Do you believe that you must earn salvation? yes or no

the Bible teaches from God's perspective...not your ignorance of scripture

no amount of your snark changes that fact

smh

 

[Polar]

Read Romans 7. Also in the present tense. Paul continued to struggle with his sin nature.

But probably not in the way most people would think. I'm sure he didn't struggle with immorality, since he was raised by a Pharisee to become one. His struggle most likely was with arrogance, which is much worse than immorality.

interesting

as you said earlier regarding Paul....are you a mind reader? you have no clue if Paul struggled with sexual thoughts or not...take you own advice here. you are real quick to flip from one side to the other to support your false claims

Paul said he was kept from arrogance....and btw, who says arrogance is worse than immorality?

many arrogant people do actually participate in sexual sins as can be seen by the numerous so called pastors who have been caught in adulterous affairs

you know, you are just boring at this point so think what you want...your flip flopping responses and apparent lack of what scripture actually states is really not worth responding to further

 

[Polar]

If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us (1John1:8), the context here compares those that walk in darkness to those that walk in the light, as He is in the light, and effectively calls those who say they have no sin liars.

So, it seems to me that there are those that can see their sin, because of the light, and those blind to it, because they are in darkness.

Why have you presumed I lack this knowledge?

just reiterating the fact no one says we are sinless....since you brought up I John 1:8

the op is actually about the fact God does not call us sinners...some seem to prefer to call themself a sinner though...and obviously I am not saying that you did

I have no clue about what you actually know...so I am not assuming anything. I don't know if you agree with the op or not

 

[Mem]

just reiterating the fact no one says we are sinless....since you brought up I John 1:8

the op is actually about the fact God does not call us sinners...some seem to prefer to call themself a sinner though...and obviously I am not saying that you did

I have no clue about what you actually know...so I am not assuming anything. I don't know if you agree with the op or not

Ok, thank you. I agree that continuing to identify with sinners is counterproductive to identifying with Christ's death burial and resurrection. We are raised in righteousness with Him.
To further elaborate on my thoughts on it, although we have a record of sin, it is stamped "paid in full" and we are restored and go forward with a new mind that sees more clearly in the light. I.e., I think the difference in us becomes that we notice the first twinges of hate in our heart well before we act upon it and thereby committing (to) it. Sin does not rule over us as it did Cain.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
When man speaks of grace, he is speaking from the perspective of man. So, to man, grace IS free.

Do you believe that you must earn salvation? yes or no

the Bible teaches from God's perspective...not your ignorance of scripture

no amount of your snark changes that fact
smh

So, you'd rather use ad hominem than answer a simple question. Why are you dodging my question about whether we need to earn salvation? Are you embarrassed to admit what you believe?

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Read Romans 7. Also in the present tense. Paul continued to struggle with his sin nature.

But probably not in the way most people would think. I'm sure he didn't struggle with immorality, since he was raised by a Pharisee to become one. His struggle most likely was with arrogance, which is much worse than immorality.

interesting

as you said earlier regarding Paul....are you a mind reader? you have no clue if Paul struggled with sexual thoughts or not...take you own advice here. you are real quick to flip from one side to the other to support your false claims

Read again. I didn't "make a claim". I gave a reasoned opinion. The Bible doesn't say what he struggled with specifically. You can believe anything you want.

Paul said he was kept from arrogance....and btw, who says arrogance is worse than immorality?

I do. So what? You probably don't even know why it's worse. Immoral persons know their actions are bad, but arrogant people think they are superior to others, and have no clue how bad that is.

you know, you are just boring at this point so think what you want

Then you may leave the thread if you want.

...your flip flopping responses and apparent lack of what scripture actually states is really not worth responding to further

And you can't show any evidence that I have changed my mind either. That is boring.

 

[Runningman]

Agreed.

I've known people who seem to feel more at peace feeling enslaved to the fear of slipping up.

They're not strong in Christ. They're afraid and rather enjoy to see the self as a slave to sin.

For some fear is everything. If they alter their errant understanding of the Bible they'll go to Hell.

One such person always closed every communication, letter, cards, with, Please Forgive Me.

For as long as he lived he never changed that. Not even when a few of us would call after receiving such a correspondence and ask, forgive you for what? What did you do?😆

Sometimes I think people envision God as their own worst fear.

I couldn't live afraid of God.
For me that would stop me living the peace I find in Christ.

What the church has done is create an internal information war or a propaganda campaign where competing denominations and schools of thought are constantly trying to debunk each other, demonize each other, or otherwise undermine each other in a battle for dominance. Meanwhile, no one in particular seems to have everything 100% right.

Fear is used to maintain control over religious adherents. Many doctrines are excluded from use, called unapproachable, are deemed taboo in some way. "If you believe X thing then you're going to hell." … "If you interpret this the wrong way you're going to hell. So listen to me and trust me." … That's how they keep people from reading their Bible and discovering the truth.

My only suggestion to anyone who reads this (not directing this at you) is study the Bible with an open heart, open mind, and don't be afraid to explore every avenue of possibility for two years. Then try going to church, any church will do, and listening to them... you will be appalled at what you see and hear.

 

[Polar]

FreeGrace2 said:
When man speaks of grace, he is speaking from the perspective of man. So, to man, grace IS free.

Do you believe that you must earn salvation? yes or no

So, you'd rather use ad hominem than answer a simple question. Why are you dodging my question about whether we need to earn salvation? Are you embarrassed to admit what you believe?

like I said, a waste of time

you are telling me what I am thinking after telling me I could not know what Paul was thinking

both funny and sad that is how you appear to conduct your responses

 

[Polar]

Then you may leave the thread if you want.

you appear to have a superiority complex of some sort. no one is leaving the thread

I said I don't care to exchange posts with someone who flip flops on what they say in order to create the impression they have 'won' an argument

now in case you still do not comprehend that, I am going to hit the ignore button so I don't see your attempts at changing what other people say

 

[EDENgate]

You're in no position to tell me what I believe.

You're right.
I go by what you told me you believe.