The offer of Salvation is universal, but the application is only : "by Faith".

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Evmur

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Romans 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.


Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Proverbs 16:4 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.
Many are called ... many are saved
but few are chosen ... few are chosen to be conformed to the image of God's Son.

Many followed Christ, many believed in Him but He chose only 12 to be apostles
 

ForestGreenCook

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After thinking through this very controversial topic especially between Calvinist and Armenians for quite a long time, I have concluded that most people will be lost because of this simplistic view of Christianity.
God chose us through predestination, yes, but in his foreknowledge he chose us. We also have to choose him.

We serve God with our minds and we cannot serve him mindlessly.
Paul says - Be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind (Romans 12:2)

Also Paul says that we serve the law of God with our minds. (Romans 8)
Rom 7:25 I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin.

Peter gives us a clear picture of the process of salvation.
1Pe 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

God's grace is sufficient but we should not take it in vain. (i.e. ignore it).
Also sanctification is a process by the Holy Spirit and Paul warns us not to grieve or quench the Holy Spirit. Yes we can quench the Holy Spirit by not living circumspectly.

The most important ingredient of salvation for today is knowledge (faith is foundational) as it was in the days of the Old Testament. (It probably is much more important to day as we have to get that knowledge through the holy Spirit and the word of God.)

In the bible the people got their knowledge through God's emissaries, e.g. Moses, Jesus, Paul, Peter etc and still they messed up.

Hos 4:6 My people are destroyed for lack of knowledge: because thou hast rejected knowledge, I will also reject thee, that thou shalt be no priest to me: seeing thou hast forgotten the law of thy God, I will also forget thy children.
Hos 6:6 For I desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings.


2Pe 1:5 And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge;

2Pe 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins


Paul uses the word wisdom which is synonymous to knowledge.
1Co 1:30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus, who of God is made unto us wisdom, and righteousness, and sanctification, and redemption:

Even Daniel brought out the importance of knowledge.
Dan 12:10 Many shall be purified, and made white, and tried; but the wicked shall do wickedly: and none of the wicked shall understand; but the wise shall understand.

On the topic of knowledge;

When a person is a new born babe in Christ they have no knowledge of the things of God and feed upon the milk of the word. They are gradually taught about spiritual things. Only a few (Matt 20:16) grow to full maturity of the knowledge of God's righteousness pertaining to what his Son accomplished on his finished work on the cross.

Rom 10:1-3 is an example of those born again people who have a "zeal of God" but not according to knowledge, and are going about to establish their own righteousness (by the law) , having not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God. There is a deliverance (salvation here in time) when a child of God comes unto a knowledge of the truth.

Those that have this lack of knowledge are known as "the lost sheep of the house of Israel".
 

ForestGreenCook

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Yes. Completely agree.


I disagree here.

There is A LOT of work for a person to do to REALIZE they cannot do the things COMMANDED by God. If they don't come to this realization then there is never a reason for them to come to Christ to ask for His Help and to receive all the gifts that result in Salvation.


Right? What does the natural man understand? Working for his reward. He can't ever have a TRUE spiritual understanding until he completely abandons his natural understanding and Trusts in the Lord Jesus Christ. Which is Truly a Gift of God.

James 4:2 Ye lust, and have not: ye kill, and desire to have, and cannot obtain: ye fight and war, yet ye have not, because ye ask not.

The unregenerate person will not come to ask for help in in accomplishing a spiritual commandment of a spiritual God (1 Cor 2:14).

Salvation, according to Greek translation means "a deliverance". The born again, child of God is the only person that will ask a spiritual God for help in accomplishing his spiritual laws. (1 Cor 2:14). There is a deliverance here in time when a child of God obeys God's commandments.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Repentance actually 'precedes' saving belief/faith in Christ.

Matthew 21:32 - For John came to you to show you the way of righteousness, and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes did. And even after you saw this, you did not repent and believe him.

Mark 1:15 - The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent and believe the gospel.

Acts 20:21 - testifying both to Jews and to Greeks of repentance toward God and of faith in our Lord Jesus Christ. *Notice the order.

Romans 10:8 - But what does it say? "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart" (TOGETHER) that is, the word of faith which we are preaching, (notice the reverse order from verse 9-10) - that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; 10 for with the heart one believes unto righteousness, and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. Confess/believe; believe/confess. Confessing with our mouth that Jesus is Lord and believing in our heart that God raised Him from the dead are not two separate steps to salvation but are chronologically together.

We are saved the moment that we believe in/place faith in Christ for salvation and water baptism "follows." Acts 10:43 - To Him all the prophets witness that, through His name, whoever believes in Him receives remission of sins.” 44 While Peter was still speaking these words, the Holy Spirit fell upon all those who heard the word. 45 And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because the gift of the Holy Spirit had been poured out on the Gentiles also. 46 For they heard them speak with tongues and magnify God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Can anyone forbid water, that these should not be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we have?”

So salvation is received the moment that we place our faith in Jesus Christ alone for salvation. (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9)

All of these scriptures you have quoted are attributes of the born again child of God.

Salvation, according to Greek translation means "a deliverance". There are many deliverances, here in time, for the children of God when they follow his commandments.

The inspired word of God are instructions to God's elect, instructing them as to how he wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth

Eternal deliverance was accomplished for all of those that God gave to his Son, out of the first man on earth to the last, to redeem them from their sins on the cross. It is a finished work of Jesus on the cross
 

ForestGreenCook

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faith is an impartation ... it energises the one who receives it to do of God's good will..

Spiritual faith is also a fruit of the Holy Spirit given to indwell the person in the new birth. Only the born again will do God's will. (1 Cor 2:14).
 
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faith is an impartation ... it energises the one who receives it to do of God's good will..
Many things are imparted, but faith isn't one of them. Spiritual gifts are imparted, wisdom is imparted, the gospel is imparted, material things are imparted. That's all Biblical, but faith or righteousness is not imparted.

Righteousness may be imputed to someone's account, that's like giving credit to someone's account, but righteousness is not imparted. Faith is a form of righteousness and it happens to be the one God is most interested in.

Abraham had righteousness imputed to him on account of his faith, not because God gave him faith. If God gives someone faith then it wouldn't have been necessary to prove faith.

Galatians 3:5-7
5So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.
7Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.

Romans 4:18-23
18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone,
 

Evmur

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Many things are imparted, but faith isn't one of them. Spiritual gifts are imparted, wisdom is imparted, the gospel is imparted, material things are imparted. That's all Biblical, but faith or righteousness is not imparted.

Righteousness may be imputed to someone's account, that's like giving credit to someone's account, but righteousness is not imparted. Faith is a form of righteousness and it happens to be the one God is most interested in.

Abraham had righteousness imputed to him on account of his faith, not because God gave him faith. If God gives someone faith then it wouldn't have been necessary to prove faith.

Galatians 3:5-7
5So again I ask, does God give you his Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law, or by your believing what you heard? 6So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.
7Understand, then, that those who have faith are children of Abraham.

Romans 4:18-23
18Against all hope, Abraham in hope believed and so became the father of many nations, just as it had been said to him, “So shall your offspring be.” 19Without weakening in his faith, he faced the fact that his body was as good as dead—since he was about a hundred years old—and that Sarah’s womb was also dead. 20Yet he did not waver through unbelief regarding the promise of God, but was strengthened in his faith and gave glory to God, 21being fully persuaded that God had power to do what he had promised. 22This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone,

The faith that saves is imparted it is a gift
 
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The faith that saves is imparted it is a gift
I don’t subscribe to unconditional election and I debunked it exhaustively in a different thread so I won’t do it here. Even though faith is not a gift, I’m just glad you have faith anyway.

Blessings.
 

DJT_47

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I do not debate bible verses because it calls into play the intellectual, carnal, element of man. Using the intellectual perspective of man, the bible has thousands and thousands of contradictions.

That was the reason why the bible states that it is impossible for the natural (carnal) man to understand the things of God because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co_2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Then why would God go to the great lengths he did having inspired writers pen his word if not for uscto read, learn from, and apply to our lives using our hearts, minds and intellect? Your conclusion makes no sense.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Election is unto the church, the body of Christ, to be conformed to the image of God's Son, a people for the praise of God's glorious grace.

... others can still be saved.

Can you reference me some scripture to confirm your statement?
 

ForestGreenCook

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I don’t subscribe to unconditional election and I debunked it exhaustively in a different thread so I won’t do it here. Even though faith is not a gift, I’m just glad you have faith anyway.

Blessings.

I supposed I missed the debunking. Do you believe that faith in the things of the Spirit, comes to us as a fruit of the Holy Spirit, that we receive in the new birth with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit? The only righteousness that we have is the righteousness of Christ imputed to us when we were quickened together with Christ.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Then why would God go to the great lengths he did having inspired writers pen his word if not for uscto read, learn from, and apply to our lives using our hearts, minds and intellect? Your conclusion makes no sense.

The inspired word of God was written as instructions to God's born again children informing them as to how he wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth. They are not instructions as to how the unregenerate can get delivered eternally.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Romans 12:3 For by the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think, but to think with sober judgment, each according to the measure of faith that God has assigned.


Ephesians 2:8-9 For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are chosen.”

Proverbs 16:4 The lot is cast into the lap, but its every decision is from the Lord.

Many were called to be God's elect people, but few were chosen ( the remnant of the house of Israel) to receive, by the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, the full knowledge of the righteousness of God about what his Son actually accomplished on the cross. The rest of God's elect were blinded to this knowledge, and are called the lost sheep of the house of Israel.


The remnant are instructed to go and preach to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
 

ForestGreenCook

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“Faith belief. are gifts of God.”

this is how we receive the gift

“So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭10:17

“This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.”
‭‭John‬ ‭5:24‬ ‭

“He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.”
‭‭John‬ ‭12:48-50‬ ‭KJV‬‬


Jesus was sent to speak Gods word we need to accept his word to have faith if we believe In The one God sent we should accept what he was sent to speak

He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is earthly, and speaketh of the earth: he that cometh from heaven is above all. And what he hath seen and heard, that he testifieth;

He that hath received his testimony hath set to his seal that God is true. For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure unto him.

The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life:

and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.”
‭‭John‬ ‭3:31-36‬ ‭

he sent Jesus into the world to speak his truth and judgements for mankind for salvation before he died and rose

“Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.”
‭‭John‬ ‭18:37‬ ‭KJV‬‬

The reason it’s important to believe Jesus is the Christ ( the one God promised to send ) is that he would teach the word of God I filigreed and unhindered by Gods spirit to mankind in isreal , and they would spread the gospel then into all nations from Israel

we need to accept the word of Christ as well as his death and resurrection . Faith needs to hear the gospel word and believe

it’s as simple as Jesus made it here

All things are delivered unto me of my Father: and no man knoweth the Son, but the Father; neither knoweth any man the Father, save the Son, and he to whomsoever the Son will reveal him. Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭11:27-30‬ ‭KJV‬‬

that’s why we have the gospel we can learn from God about salvstion while he’s offering gentleness , patience , forebewrance , atonement and everything g we need in Jesus if we will accept his actual offer and instructions we can be saved by this gentle teacher by just believing him learning from him and eventually learning to actually follow his ways

“It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.”
‭‭John‬ ‭6:45‬ ‭KJV‬‬

later when we hear the gospel and begin to accept and believe we can learn from Jesus by doing so. Which has the power to change us at our hearts core in our faith

if so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

that ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

and be renewed in the spirit of your mind; and that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.”
‭‭Ephesians‬ ‭4:21-24‬ ‭KJV‬‬


his teachkngs about God , eterbal
Life , mankind’s salvstion ect can change our mind and how we think which changes how we act if we really accept Jesus is the one to believe in we can approach him and begin to learn from the lord and be saved

There are two different kinds of people in this world from the beginning of it until the end. The unregenerate and the regenerate.

The inspired word of God was written to the regenerate people as instructions as to how God wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth.

According to Greek interpretation for salvation is "a deliverance, saved = delivered and save = deliver"

If God's regenerate people follow his instructions to live their life by, they will be delivered from many things of this world.

The unregenerate people cannot understand the word of a spiritual God, and thinks it to be foolishness (1 Cor 2:14).

Eternal deliverance was accomplished by Jesus for all of those that his Father gave to him to redeem them from their sins by his death on the cross, and Jesus said that he would not lose any of them, but would raise them up at the last day, and that his work on the cross was finished (John 6:39).
 

ForestGreenCook

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That verse says faith is a work.

John 6:28,29
28Then they inquired, “What must we do to perform the works of God?”
29Jesus replied, “The work of God is this: to believe in the One He has sent.”

As far as I’m aware, there isn’t an Old Testament command to believe in the Messiah. There are many prophecies about a coming Messiah, (later revealed to be Jesus of Nazareth) but no such command to believe in Him in the OT Scriptures. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

Also, not all of the Old Testament prophecies regarding Jesus were understood to be Messianic prophecies until Jesus and/or His apostles showed what they really were.

This means Jesus had an uphill climb to convince people who He was exactly, often differing to miracles instead of knowledge/wisdom from Scripture to win converts.

The work of believing in “the One God sent” is therefore not a jot or jittle from the codified law of Moses; it isn’t a “work of the law” so to speak. Rather, believing in Jesus is a good work of obedience related to doing the will of God.

The unregenerate could not believe in the things of the Spirit, until after he has been born of the Holy Spirit (1 Cor 2:14). God does the work of quickening the unregenerate to be regenerate by the new birth, so believing in spiritual things is a work of God.
 

ForestGreenCook

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Ephesians 2:8-9 says faith is not a work that you can do but a gift from God.

Galatians 5:22-23 shows why.

The work of God is quickening a dead alien sinner to a new spiritual life with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit that reveals spiritual truths to them, so believing in spiritual things is a work of God.
 

Magenta

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Can you furnish a scripture with your statement, so I can see it for myself?
It has been furnished to you multiple times, and even right in this thread, page one no less. You deny it.
 

Evmur

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Can you reference me some scripture to confirm your statement?
I could quote you church history.

But Abrahams election, and he was the first, was that he and his seed should BLESS the nations. You have to see the elect nation of Israel in Egypt ... the Jews found favour among the people, the mid wives for example, Moses and Aaron at Pharoah's court and those who heeded Moses escaped the worst plagues.

When Israel left Egypt the people enriched them.

In Babylon many were saved including kings. The saying has always been true, those who bless thee will be blest, those that curse thee will be cursed.

We are elect to be a city set upon a hill, to exclude everybody? NO but that men who are lost and naked and hungry might find their way.

I am very bold to say this but the church has not interpreted the last judgement rightly. Do you believe in the rapture, the resurrection of the just? "so shall we ever be with the Lord" "we are" says John "passed over from judgement to life"

There is no way the sheep in the last judgement can be the church.
 

Evmur

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There are two different kinds of people in this world from the beginning of it until the end. The unregenerate and the regenerate.

The inspired word of God was written to the regenerate people as instructions as to how God wants them to live their lives as they sojourn here on earth.

According to Greek interpretation for salvation is "a deliverance, saved = delivered and save = deliver"

If God's regenerate people follow his instructions to live their life by, they will be delivered from many things of this world.

The unregenerate people cannot understand the word of a spiritual God, and thinks it to be foolishness (1 Cor 2:14).

Eternal deliverance was accomplished by Jesus for all of those that his Father gave to him to redeem them from their sins by his death on the cross, and Jesus said that he would not lose any of them, but would raise them up at the last day, and that his work on the cross was finished (John 6:39).
The particularity of redemption is not in the atonement, the particularity is in who God allows to come believingly to Christ.