Who Justifieth the Ungodly

[brightfame52]

intentionally obtuse.

Indepth spiritual insight is not required to understand the words written in Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

A person either believes what is written or he/she rejects what is written.

However, if you teach folks you witness to that they will never understand Scripture, then you are teaching exactly what the adversary wants taught and you will see Bibles "setting around collecting dust" because (according to you) the Word of God is just "words written on paper".
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The natural mind of man cant know and understand the scriptures, its foolishness to him 1 Cor 2:14

 

[brightfame52]

glad you finally acknowledged that.





nope.





the only one on this thread who "advocate works" would be the one who insists "Faith its law keeping"
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You definitely advocate Justification by works, by law keeping.

 

[brightfame52]

nope ... you have not addressed the issue. All you have done is continue to spout your "born again in order to believe the gospel through which one is born again" dogma.

And I understand why you cannot address the issue ... because that would mean you have to examine/assess your dogma and you are not ready to do that at this point in time. it's much easier for you to rewrite/manipulate Scripture so that it aligns with your erroneous dogma (which is improper interpretation of Scripture).
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Again, believing in Jesus is an evidence one has been born of God. Jn 1:12-13

 

[brightfame52]

Romans 5:10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Prior to being born again, we were (past tense) enemies ... irreconcilable hostility toward God.

Once we are born again, we are (not past tense) reconciled.

The word "reconciled" is translated from Greek katallássō – decisively change, as when two parties reconcile when coming ("changing") to the same position.

The one who is justified by faith (Rom 5:1) is no longer an enemy because he/she is now reconciled. Both parties are now reconciled.
.

I have been studying Rom 5:10 for decades, really nothing a person like yourself can tell me about it since you obviously dont believe it. Those for whom Christ died, His death reconciled them to God even while they were enemies, unbelievers. Its the same thing as saying they were Justified before God while still being ungodly.

 

[brightfame52]

You referencing this verse actually supports what I have been telling you concerning Thayer's because Thayer's states kosmos in this verse means "hyperbolically or loosely equivalent to the majority of men in a place, the multitude or mass (as we say the public)".

As far as John 1:29, John 3:16-17, and 1 John 2:2, Thayer's indicates the word kosmos means "the inhabitants of the world; ... particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race" and John 1:29, John 3:16-17, and 1 John 2:2 are specifically referenced under this definition of kosmos.

You claim that Thayer's definition #8 "any aggregate or general collection of particulars of any sort" is the definition of the word kosmos as used in John 1:29, John 3:16-17, and 1 John 2:2. However, that is not what is shown in Thayer's. Thayer's specifically references definition #5 for John 1:29, John 3:16-17, and 1 John 2:2.

I'm not surprised that you misrepresent what is written in Thayer's though because you do the same with Scripture. Since it is clear you treat the Word of God so haphazardly, it's really no shock you do the same with other writings.
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There you have it, the word world Kosmos never as a rule in scripture, means every member of the human family, thats just nonsense !

 

[brightfame52]

apparently you do not understand the difference between myself (and others) examining/scrutinizing your dogma and a personal attack ... which is what you did when you claimed it was your "privilege to tell ya that they really don’t believe it at all !" ... or your claim that I was "lying on you" and you finally acknowledged I was not "lying on you" because I had accurately represented your statements.

In examining your dogma, I never said you are not a believer or that you are not born again.

You not understanding the difference between scrutiny/examination of your dogma and a personal attack does not give you license to assert your outlandish accusations/personal attacks.

Didnt you have enough sense to realize when you criticize someone for judging you, that at the same time you are judging them ? Duh

"law keeping faith" ... more of your erroneous dogma you sling because you just "say anything" in order to prop up your dogma (and then project your own behavior onto others who do not do what you claim).

Scripture is quite clear faith ≠ works.

Romans 4:

3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it [Abraham's faith] was counted unto him for righteousness.

4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.

5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
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Yes you out here teaching a law keeping faith, produced by the unregenerate mind at that. Hope you plan on keeping every jot and title of it !

 

[brightfame52]

if that's the case, then

only the "elect" are considered "ungodly" ...
only the "elect" are considered "sinners" ...
only the "elect" are considered "enemies" ...


... just another example that you are the one who "just say anything ... to hear yourself talk or to try and impress folks"
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Nope, only the elect ungodly are objects of Gods love, mercy and grace through Jesus Christ. The non elect are ungodly, sinners, enemies, but unfortunately for them, God has ordained for them the Just punishment due for their sins.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

that may be what your erroneous dogma tells you, but that is not what Scripture tells you:

Romans 4:5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth [present tense] on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted [present tense] for righteousness.

The verbs are in the present tense which means that at the very moment the person believes, his/her faith is counted for righteousness ... at that very moment, the believer is no longer ungodly.

Yes Righteousness was imputed and Justification accomplished at the Cross, the resurrection verified that, Christ was raised for our Justification. The word Justification there in Rom 4:25 means:

1. the act of God declaring men free from guilt and acceptable to him
2. abjuring to be righteous, justification

Youngs literal translation has it right:

who was delivered up because of our offences, and was raised up because of our being declared righteous.

Now if you want to deny the witness of the resurrection of Christ, you are more foolish than I thought.

Every sinner Christ died for, past, present and future, His resurrection declares them righteous, that's imputed righteousness.

before he became a believer", he was not "justified before God". Before he became a believer, he was ungodly.

According to Scripture, a person is not simultaneously justified and ungodly.

That your erroneous dogma considers a person to be simultaneously justified and ungodly is Scripturally unsound.

You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error and hold to Scripture.

Then you dont believe the witness of Christs resurrection. Thats as simple as that, we call that unbelief friend. If you believe sinners Christ died for are still unjustified before God, that's unbelief and counting the Blood of Christ as worthless as to Justifying sinners. See Faith to believe is given to them Christ died for and Justified by His Blood.

if they are "already Justified", then they are already "born again" so there would be no need for them to be "caused to be born again".

Because your dogma is in error, you keep insisting upon the need for a person to be born again in order to believe the gospel by which they are born again.

That is why I keep asking you how many times under your erroneous dogma must a person be born again before he/she is really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again.
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Oh No, one must be already Justified, sins put away by the blood of Christ, to be a candidate for the New Birth. Only the Justified will be born again.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

According to Scripture, a person is not simultaneously justified and ungodly.

That your erroneous dogma considers a person to be simultaneously justified and ungodly is Scripturally unsound.

You are to align your dogma to Scripture and where you are in error, let go of the error and hold to Scripture.

Thats backwards, scripture teaches the elect are Justified while unbelieving ungodly enemies Rom 4:5 as same as reconciled to God while unbelieving enemies Rom 5:10, yet you deny both truths

Whoever is secretly righteous by the death of Christ
... "secretly righteous" ... more made up erroneous dogma from the keyboard of brightfame52.


Exegesis and eisegesis are two conflicting approaches in Bible study. Exegesis is the exposition or explanation of a text based on a careful, objective analysis. The word exegesis literally means “to lead out of.” That means that the interpreter is led to his conclusions by following the text.

The opposite approach to Scripture is eisegesis, which is the interpretation of a passage based on a subjective, non-analytical reading. The word eisegesis literally means “to lead into,” which means the interpreter injects his own ideas into the text, making it mean whatever he wants.

Obviously, only exegesis does justice to the text. Eisegesis is a mishandling of the text and often leads to a misinterpretation. Exegesis is concerned with discovering the true meaning of the text, respecting its grammar, syntax, and setting. Eisegesis is concerned only with making a point, even at the expense of the meaning of words.

Yes the elect sinner Justification before God by the death of Christ is unknown to them until God gives them Faith to see it, receive it into their consciousness.
You are opposing the Justifying blood of Christ !

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

133+ pages into this thread and all we have is your keyboard propping up your erroneous dogma to support your claim.

Yes, as I witness the Gospel we see how the Gospel of the Grace of God is opposed by you. May God have mercy on you

Scripture is clear in telling us when a person is justified:

Romans 4:

20 He [Abraham] staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;

21 And being fully persuaded that, what he [God] had promised, he [God] was able also to perform.

22 And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.

23 Now it was not written for his sake alone, that it [righteousness] was imputed to him;

24 But for us also, to whom it [righteousness] shall be imputed, if we believe on him that raised up Jesus our Lord from the dead;

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

5:1 Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ

Scripture is clear that the elect for whom Christ died were Justified at the Cross, of which the resurrection of Christ testified of, and then, having been Justified, faith is given to receive and rest in it. In fact Rom 5:1 could read differently to make the point more clearer

Therefore being justified, by faith we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

Because Faith looks back to the testimony of the resurrection in Rom 4:25

25 Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification.

Faith shows what Christ did to Justify the people He died for.

brightfame52 said:

The ones who are already Justified by the death of Christ, are caused to be born again
if they are "already Justified", then they are already "born again" so there would be no need for them to be "caused to be born again".

Because your dogma is in error, you keep insisting upon the need for a person to be born again in order to believe the gospel by which they are born again.

That is why I keep asking you how many times under your erroneous dogma must a person be born again before he/she is really, truly, really, really, really, scout's honor born again.

Again, those who are already Justified had their sins put away, death for them has been abolished, the sin debt of theirs paid in full, so in evidence of that, they are given a New Birth, with that New Birth they are given the Gift of Faith to believe in Him who died for them and rose again for their Justification.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

brightfame52 ... there is absolutely no need to accuse me (or anyone else for that matter) of being "confused" when I (or anyone else) bring to your attention the contradictory statements you make. I am not confused ... I asked for clarification concerning your contradictory statements.

That the confusion lies in your erroneous dogma does not equal me or others being "confused" when we point out the error in your dogma.

A better word to describe you in these matters is deceived. Only God can deliver you from that, but understand, we are living I believe at the end, wherein it is written most are deceived Rev 20:7-9

7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them

He regenerates that sinner, at the point technically he is no more ungodly
... and this is what I have been telling you for months now, brightfame52.

No you havent, thats what I have been telling you, because a person Christ died for is Justified before God while ungodly, unregenerate. So you are confused.

at the point technically he is no more ungodly, but a new creation, then he believes in Christ
The believer is not a "new creation in Christ" before he/she believes in Christ (i.e. is born again).

A person Christ died for is Justified before God, prior to being made a new creature by the new birth, its because they are already Justified, that God has mercy on them and makes them a new creature. After being made a new creature, the Justified person believes in Christ. Its the Born again new creature that believes in Christ.

brightfame52 said:
he understands that they were justified by the blood of Christ before they believed.
nope ... this is just more of your erroneous "born again in order to believe the gospel through which one is born again" dogma.

A Person is Justified by the blood of Christ before they believe, thats why they believe because they are already Justified. They are Justified also before God before they are born again.

The rest of your Post 2651 is nothing but a botched up mess where you've included a comment made by me with a comment made by you in a quote as if I had made both statements.

You need to submit posts so that it is clear as to who said what.

Quit acting like such a buffoon ... Learn how to properly submit posts in the Christian Chat forum. There's a "User2User Tech Support" forum where you can chat with other users who are much more adept at submitting posts than you are. Go there and find out what you need to do in order to submit a post without mangling the discussion.

Insults

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

regeneration = born again.

Since, according to you, "God gives them new life which is regeneration, and with that Faith to believe the Gospel", you've got them born again (regeneration) in order to "believe the Gospel" by which they are born again (regeneration).

I dont believe in Gospel regeneration, that's a lie you just told on me. The Gospel brings forth the spiritual life given in regeneration by the Spirit. The Spirit doesnt use the Gospel to regenerate. The Spirit quickens at the command of Christ. The Spirit quickens whoever Christ died for and put away their sins, thus justifying them. That justified person is like any other ungodly sinner, born a spiritually dead sinner, but since their sins have been put away and they are legally before God Justified, just as though they never sinned, they are regenerated, given a new spiritual life, and then God in His Providence either sends the Gospel to them or brings them under the preaching of the Gospel, and they hear it, and believe. Also its the True Gospel they believe, not a false Gospel, as to say, God loves everybody, Christ died for everybody, now its up to you to accept it.

You have got multiple "regenerations" and yet, according to your Post 2470, "one is only born again once".

False accusation

On the one hand you claim "The grace of God is never offered"

On the other hand you claim "they then receive"

So one "receive" what is never "offered" ... got it

No, Grace isnt never offered, its given, whats Given by God is received, duh

You claim "those He died for" can "continue being ungodly sinners".

Yep, people Christ died for happen to be born ungodly sinners, and they live that way for years, decades, but Christ still died for them. Duh And having died for them, they are Justified before God.

Yet Scripture tells us Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof (Rom 6:12).

Thats after they become a believer, after they are born again

So again I ask is it Scriptural to teach that we can "continue being ungodly sinners" or is it Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof ???

It depends on whether you are speaking before or after the New Birth has taken place.

 

[brightfame52]

brightfame52 ... you have again completely botched your Post 2654.

You need to submit posts so that it is clear as to who said what.

Quit acting like such a buffoon ... Learn how to properly submit posts in the Christian Chat forum. There's a "User2User Tech Support" forum where you can chat with other users who are much more adept at submitting posts than you are. Go there and find out what you need to do in order to submit a post without mangling the discussion.
.

Insults

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

That was just the type
Your response does not address the issue.

Yes it does. God passed over when He saw the Blood. He passes over where He sees Christ, who is passover Lamb in antitype , sees His Blood.

 

[brightfame52]

renewed

nope ... my pointing out that you have ripped a verse from its context in order to prop up your erroneous dogma does not equal me "rejecting" Scripture.

Yes it is, Im witnessing to you scripture found within its context ! And you reject it

The Bible is the Word of God, literally "God-breathed" (2 Timothy 3:16),

And you reject your fair share of it.

nope ... my pointing out that you have ripped a verse from its context in order to prop up your erroneous dogma does not equal me "rejecting" Scripture.

The Bible is the Word of God, literally "God-breathed" (2 Timothy 3:16), and we are commanded to read, study, and understand it through the use of good Bible study methods and always with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit to guide us (1 Corinthians 2:14). Our study is greatly enhanced by maintaining diligence in the use of context because it is quite easy to come to wrong conclusions by taking phrases and verses out of context. It is not difficult to point out places that seemingly contradict other portions of Scripture, but if we carefully look at their context and use the entirety of Scripture as a reference, we can understand the meaning of a passage. “Context is king” means that the context often drives the meaning of a phrase. To ignore context is to put ourselves at a tremendous disadvantage.​

https://www.gotquestions.org/context-Bible.html​

you then submitted this as if you had made both statements:





That is an example of what I mean when I claim that you have "botched your reply".

In addition to my pointing out your botched posts above, here are more posts submitted by you which I did not reply to because you "botched your reply":

brightfame52 Post 2639 – reply to Post 2612
brightfame52 Post 2640 – reply to Post 2613
brightfame52 Post 2643 – reply to Post 2616
brightfame52 Post 2644 – reply to Post 2618
brightfame52 Post 2646 – reply to Post 2620


You need to submit posts so that it is clear as to who said what.


Quit acting like such a buffoon ... Learn how to properly submit posts in the Christian Chat forum. There's a "User2User Tech Support" forum where you can chat with other users who are much more adept at submitting posts than you are. Go there and find out what you need to do in order to submit a post without mangling the discussion.
.

Insults

 

[brightfame52]

Justified while enemies by the Blood of Christ alone !

Rom 5:9-10

9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

10 For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Listen, being Justified by His Blood in Vs 9 is the very exact thing as being reconciled to God by His Death, its no difference except the verbiage . Now it should be observed to the credit of Christ's Death alone, that the reconciliation to God occurred as the believers were still in a unconverted state and enemies Rom 5:10, so likewise the Justification before God in Vs 9 did as well, it occurred while in a unconverted state and while enemies. This emphasis is made by Paul to show what special a blessing it is for Christ to die for us, it makes us righteous [Vs 9] and it restores us into the favor of God [being exempt from any of Gods Wrath as it is on others] and again, the only ground this blessing is pertinent to us is the Death/Blood of Christ and His Faith/Faithfulness !

Ones own Faith plays no part in this matter because the fact of Justification before God and Reconciliation to God occurred while they being enemies ! Rom 5:9-10 14

 

[brightfame52]

Just, and the Justifier of him which believeth in Jesus !

Rom 3:26

To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

Now what is Paul Preaching here ? Is he teaching that one must believe on Jesus Christ as a condition in order for God to Justify them ? God forbid, for that is Justification by the work of man, believing is an act of man ! Man is not and cannot be Just before God by any act of his, but Justification before God is always conditioned upon the act or actions of Jesus Christ !

Now Christ's action can be described as His Obedience Rom 5:19, or His Faithfulness to God Heb 2:17;3:2, and its by this that God Justifies a person or persons.

In the original the words "which believeth in Jesus " are in the genitive case, which means Jesus Faith is being spoken of, and a better translation would read, He is Just and Justifying he which has the Faith of Jesus .

In other words, God s Just in Justifying those who have Christ Suretyship Faithfulness charged to them !

Here are some translations that capture the genitive :

in the forbearance of God, for the showing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for Him to be just, and justifying the one of the faith of Jesus. berean literal bible

He wanted to demonstrate at the present time that he himself is righteous and that he justifies anyone who has the faithfulness of Jesus. International Standard Version

This was also to demonstrate his righteousness in the present time, so that he would be just and the justifier of the one who lives because of Jesus' faithfulness. NET Bible

manifesting in this time his righteousness that he only be the just one and the justifier of him that is of the faith of Jesus. Jubilee Bible 2000

Through the forbearance of God, for the shewing of his justice in this time; that he himself may be just, and the justifier of him, who is of the faith of Jesus Christ. Douay-Rheims Bible

for [the] shewing forth of his righteousness in the present time, so that he should be just, and justify him that is of [the] faith of Jesus.
Darby Bible Translation

See all whom Christ represented as Surety partake of His Surety Headship Faithfulness, just like all whom Adam represented took part in his surety headship unfaithfulness !

And since Christ by His Suretyship Faithfulness both obeyed Gods Law perfectly for His People He represented, as well as suffered their wages of death for their unfaithfulness, that cleared them of all guilt and declared them Righteous before God ! 14

 

[reneweddaybyday]

Interesting ... the promise by God concerning Messiah, the Lord Jesus Christ ... and all you're interested in is the seed of the serpent ...

You not interested in all what God said ? He said it, so He considered it important !

To whom was God speaking in the verse?

Genesis 3:

14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:

15 And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.
.

 

[reneweddaybyday]

brightfame52 - Post 2545:

​

you are saying Christs death and blood was worthless.​

reneweddaybyday - Post 2601

​

... nope … those words have come solely from your keyboard.

But that does not stop you from claiming I stated what only you have submitted.

Your erroneous dogma has you deceiving yourself and making false claims against me.

brightfame52 aka accuser of the brethren​

brightfame52 - Post 2630

​

Thats the conclusion I may draw on a fair basis​

reneweddaybyday - Post 2658

​

nope ... from Day 1 of you claiming I submitted those words I have denied your claim and you have provided no post submitted by me wherein I made the claim.​

​

Therefore, the only conclusion you may "draw on a fair basis" is that you are the only one on this thread who has submitted that statement.​

no other conclusion but that Christs death for them was worthless

That is not the only conclusion.

You could conclude that "Christs death for them" was of inestimable value and those who reject God are without excuse for having squandered God's priceless grace ... which is what God's Word plainly states:


Romans 1:

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse


vs 18 – the words "who hold" are translated from the Greek word katechō which means to suppress, restrain, hinder. God reveals Himself to all mankind and some restrain the truth. They reject God and God allows them to reject Him.

vs 20 – those who reject are without excuse. They are inexcusable. The Lord Jesus Christ died for all sin of all mankind (all descendants of Adam). When a person rejects, that does not change the efficacy of the death, resurrection and ascension of the Lord Jesus Christ to your horrendous claim.
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[reneweddaybyday]

The only atonement the scripture teaches is limited to Gods elect

2 Corinthians 5:19 To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

World there is gentiles

nope ... world there is kosmos and, according to Thayer's, world is defined as the inhabitants of the world; particularly the inhabitants of the earth, men, the human race.

world there cannot be all men without exception, that would be universalism salvation

world there can be all descendants of Adam and it would not be universalism salvation ... it would be Scriptural salvation because God desires all men to be saved and to come unto the knowledge of the truth (1 Tim 2:4).

The only reason all men do not come unto the knowledge of the truth is because some reject as they suppress the truth in unrighteousness (Rom 1:18).

Do you believe in universalism ?

I am not a universalist.

While I believe God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God sent not His Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through Him might be saved (John 3:16-17), I believe those who reject God will ultimately be cast into the lake of fire.
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