Is faith a work?

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

Well, that's your opinion.


Your opinion is what you think the verse is about. But isn't.

And thats your opinion, which everyone has. But nevertheless, you disagree with what is plainly stated by scripture, some are given to believe on Christ, and to suffer for Him Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; Believing is the purposed result in giving to believe, suffering for Christ sake is the purposed result in giving to suffer.

 

[FreeGrace2]

And thats your opinion, which everyone has. But nevertheless, you disagree with what is plainly stated by scripture, some are given to believe on Christ, and to suffer for Him Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake; Believing is the purposed result in giving to believe, suffering for Christ sake is the purposed result in giving to suffer.

You don't have plainly stated verses that support your ideas.

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

You don't have plainly stated verses that support your ideas.

Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

 

[FreeGrace2]

Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

You keep misunderstanding this verse. To be "given to believe" is about opportunity to believe. There is nothing here about God causing anyone to believe.

Just as Titus 2:11 is about opportunity.

" For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people."

An offer is an opportunity. It can be taken or rejected.

Here is a passage where God did not given an opportunity to believe:

Acts 16-
6 Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia.
7 When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to.

When people are so negative and refuse to believe, God passes them by.

Again, you have no verse that tells us that God causes anyone to believe. You only think you do.

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

You keep misunderstanding this verse. To be "given to believe" is about opportunity to believe. There is nothing here about God causing anyone to believe.

Just as Titus 2:11 is about opportunity.

" For the grace of God has appeared that offers salvation to all people."

An offer is an opportunity. It can be taken or rejected.

Here is a passage where God did not given an opportunity to believe:

Acts 16-
6 Paul and his companions traveled throughout the region of Phrygia and Galatia, having been kept by the Holy Spirit from preaching the word in the province of Asia.
7 When they came to the border of Mysia, they tried to enter Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus would not allow them to.

When people are so negative and refuse to believe, God passes them by.

Again, you have no verse that tells us that God causes anyone to believe. You only think you do.

No I dont misunderstand it, I believe it. God gives one to believe on the name of Christ Phil 1:29
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

 

[FreeGrace2]

No I dont misunderstand it, I believe it. God gives one to believe on the name of Christ Phil 1:29
29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

How many times would you like to go over all this?? The verse simply doesn't say what you want it to say.

God does not cause anyone to believe. That is a Calvinist fallacy. Titus 2:11 refutes that idea.

 

[awelight]

That’s because the great commission is for everyone, not just certain people. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God. Long term exposure to the word of God increases the faith of someone.



That’s talking about people who believed in God, but weren’t convinced Jesus is the Messiah. Blanket judgements they are unregenerate isn’t supported by the passage.



No.

That verse is specifically in reference to why Jesus spoke in plain language to His disciples and in parables to everyone else. It’s prophecy fulfillment.



No, it’s all mankind. The gospel is for everyone like you already said.



False.

Faith is something anyone can have.




That interpretation is wrong and contradicts many things in the Bible. God takes no pleasure when the wicked perish and would rather them repent. Luke 24:46-47 says repentance needs to be preached to all the nations because it’s applicable to everyone.



That doesn’t even make sense. Faith would be required for regeneration to occur.

Well, I can't say that I didn't try. Perhaps one day, God will grant you the opportunity to come to know these things.

Take care.

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

How many times would you like to go over all this?? The verse simply doesn't say what you want it to say.

God does not cause anyone to believe. That is a Calvinist fallacy. Titus 2:11 refutes that idea.

Yes He does cause them to believe who He gives the gift of believing in Christ, that's why He gave it them.

Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

 

[awelight]

The faith that I've been talking about is saving faith i.e. a 'natural' i.e. carnal man who is spiritually dead is in an instant on receiving the gift of faith from God 'born again' i.e. regenerated i.e. made spiritually alive.

If you've followed the exchanges with Freegrace2 you'll see that he is of the view that faith precedes salvation ....and he fails to see that the whole point in God giving a carnal man the gift of faith is to save him and make him spiritually alive.

I agree with your point. I agree that God must make one alive, in spirit, before anything else can take place.

What I was trying to point out, to you, is that it is not accomplished by the gift of faith but rather by the gift of Grace. Grace is a Biblical term that embodies all of the tools needed for Salvation. Every step of Grace was determined in the mind of God. Grace proceeds in these steps, in the following way:

IN ETERNITY:
1.) It was in the mind of God before the foundation of the world. (God's Mercy and Compassion would be demonstrated - this is Grace.)
2.) It was embodied in the Son as It's Redeemer and Justifier. Jesus Christ our Lord. (The Executor of Grace.)
3.) It included an intimate knowledge of those whom God chose. (God's Love is demonstrated to them - in Grace.)
4.) It sealed them in Election. (God's Remnant was placed in the Eternal Covenant - by Grace.)
5.) It Predestinated them to It's purpose. (God's Elect is positioned - through Grace.)

IN TIME:
1.) It Called them by the Sovereign work of the Holy Spirit - Regeneration.

A.) This one act upon the fallen, sinful, Predestined person - accomplishes a myriad of things: 1.) It provides a working spirit and restores communion with God. 2.) The Holy Spirit indwells the recipient. 3.) It Seals the recipient for Christ. 4.) It gives a "new" nature. 5.) It opens the "eyes" and "ears" of spiritual understanding - so the Gospel can be "effectual". 6.) It makes saving Faith operable. 7.) It magnifies and glorifies the Person and Work of Jesus Christ.

2.) It Justifies the believer before his/her own conscience. (They come to know that they have been Justified, before God, through Faith - by Grace.)
3.) It Glorified them, in the mind of God and will Glorify them at the end of our mortal bodies. (The completed work of Grace.)

So, again, I agree with you. Faith is a gift because Grace includes it. I just wanted to help you see the whole of God's beautiful Plan, by His marvelous Grace.

God be with you.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Yes He does cause them to believe who He gives the gift of believing in Christ, that's why He gave it them.

Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

God gives the opportunity to those who are seeking. God causes no one to believe.

Titus 2:11 refutes your opinion about Phil 1:29.

Many other verses clearly teach that God wants everyone to repent, and to believe the gospel.

 

[awelight]

Salvation from A to Z is 110% all of God, conversion initially and all and other subsequent conversions are of God. Like Peter, he experiences a conversion Lk 22:32


But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

Notice he is passive in this conversion. All of the Salvation of Gods people from here to Glory God is responsible for friend. Even our growth in Grace and Knowledge !

I love your desire to defend God's Sovereignty and Purpose. You can't go wrong there. However, don't go to far.

While God arms us with all of the tools for salvation and purposed it for His Elect... It can never be said, That God "believed" for us. Therefore, the chosen and regenerated individual is now "Good Ground" or Prepared Ground" for the seed (Gospel), but the one prepared must do the believing. God cannot believe for that one. This would invalidate a huge part of Scripture.

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

awelight

I agree with your point. I agree that God must make one alive, in spirit, before anything else can take place.

Thats correct, Spiritual life commences any Spiritual ability and activity, just as physical life commences any physical ability or activity.

Every step of Grace was determined in the mind of God. Grace proceeds in these steps, in the following way:

IN ETERNITY:

Agreed, all grace and spiritual blessings given in time is the outflow of having been given purpose and grace in the Mediator of the Covenant Christ Jesus before the world began

2 Tim 1:9

9 Who hath saved us, and called us with an holy calling, not according to our works, but according to his own purpose and grace, which was given us in Christ Jesus before the world began

1.) It was in the mind of God before the foundation of the world. (God's Mercy and Compassion would be demonstrated - this is Grace.)
2.) It was embodied in the Son as It's Redeemer and Justifier. Jesus Christ our Lord. (The Executor of Grace.)
3.) It included an intimate knowledge of those whom God chose. (God's Love is demonstrated to them - in Grace.)
4.) It sealed them in Election. (God's Remnant was placed in the Eternal Covenant - by Grace.)
5.) It Predestinated them to It's purpose. (God's Elect is positioned - through Grace.)

Agreed

IN TIME:

1.) It Called them by the Sovereign work of the Holy Spirit - Regeneration.

Agreed, Paul spoke of this call of grace Gal 1:15

But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace,

A.) This one act upon the fallen, sinful, Predestined person - accomplishes a myriad of things: 1.) It provides a working spirit and restores communion with God. 2.) The Holy Spirit indwells the recipient. 3.) It Seals the recipient for Christ. 4.) It gives a "new" nature. 5.) It opens the "eyes" and "ears" of spiritual understanding - so the Gospel can be "effectual". 6.) It makes saving Faith operable. 7.) It magnifies and glorifies the Person and Work of Jesus Christ.

Agreed, this is the operations of the conferred grace spiritual blessings spoken of in Eph 1:3-4

3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings in heavenly places in Christ:

4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:

5 Having predestinated us unto the adoption of children by Jesus Christ to himself, according to the good pleasure of his will,

2.) It Justifies the believer before his/her own conscience. (They come to know that they have been Justified, before God, through Faith - by Grace.)

I think we agree here that Faith is given to the already Justified, so that they may know of it in their own heart and mind, if thats your meaning we agree.

3.) It Glorified them, in the mind of God and will Glorify them at the end of our mortal bodies. (The completed work of Grace.)

Where God gives Grace, He gives Glory Ps 84:11

For the Lord God is a sun and shield: the Lord will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

Rom 5:2

By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

So, again, I agree with you. Faith is a gift because Grace includes it. I just wanted to help you see the whole of God's beautiful Plan, by His marvelous Grace.

All this God graciously gave the elect Christ died for, when He gave them Christ to die as their Covenant Head Rom 8:34

32 He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

 

[WillB]

There is a way to quote certain parts of a post so you can directly that part.

You can highlight the part you want to discuss, and up on the toolbar where you see the 3 dots. Click that then click quote.

Or you can do as I did here and type in [ / quote ] (no spaces) at the end of the first part. then every time after. add [ quote ] no spaces in front, and end the section with [ / quote ] that should help you from having to repeat. If you need help let me know


Do you believe justification comes before regeneration. or one is regenerated, then has faith, then is justified? from what you just posted. I still can not determine which way you believe



all of them would identify as one who belongs to Christ. so hopefully you have answered my question above and we can resolve this issue of what you believe.

thank you

Everlasting grace:There is a way to quote certain parts of a post so you can directly that part.

You can highlight the part you want to discuss, and up on the toolbar where you see the 3 dots. Click that then click quote.

Or you can do as I did here and type in [ / quote ] (no spaces) at the end of the first part. then every time after. add [ quote ] no spaces in front, and end the section with [ / quote ] that should help you from having to repeat. If you need help let me know

WB: I could do what you’ve suggested but you seem to have missed my point about sections of my response to posts being edited out. And in your latest response you’ve done that very thing.


Everlasting grace: In your origional post. if you were coming from a calvinist point of view. that regeneration must take place first. then my origional comment to you stands, and I am sorry if you did not understand that comment.

WB: My intention is to present a Scriptural view as I am convinced that only God is infallible and only the Bible accurately informs readers of His thoughts.

That being the case I am convinced – and I’m speaking as a former atheist to give you some more context – that God gives to ‘some’ and indeed ‘many’ the gift of faith and that in that instant when someone e.g. WB is gifted with faith he is regenerated i.e. born again and is saved…whereas prior to that occasion WB was an unregenerate i.e. spiritually dead and unsaved man.

Is my position now made clear?

Everlasting grace: Do you believe justification comes before regeneration. or one is regenerated, then has faith, then is justified? from what you just posted. I still can not determine which way you believe

WB: Please tell which part(s) of “God gives the gift of faith and in that INSTANT (i.e. the instant that WB received FAITH) he is regenerated and saved.”



Everlasting grace: if you were not coming from a calvinist perspective, (that one m,ust be regenerated BEFORE they believe) then I wish you would have let me know. and we could have resolved the discussion. and that is why there may be confusion on your part.

WB: Is it not just possible that by trying to put my comments into a category, in this instance, that of Calvinism that you have created confusion for yourself?

As an aside, let me say this. I’ve read some of what Calvin has written and some of what Luther has written and I’ve also read some of what the Romanists have to say and whilst I find some of what those aforementioned have written to be of interest I consider their views only in the light of Scripture to see if what they present stands up to scrutiny.

In other words, I don’t put my faith in what any man has to say and the reason is that I know only too well that the default of Man is to get things wrong – even though they may very well be sincere.

So, I don’t identify as a Calvinist or a Lutheran or a Romanist ….and I identify as one who belongs to Jesus Christ who is my Lord and Saviour.

Everlasting grace: all of them would identify as one who belongs to Christ. so hopefully you have answered my question above and we can resolve this issue of what you believe.

thank you
WB: Well, hopefully my position – I cannot speak on behalf of “all of them [who] would identify as one who belongs to Christ”….that’s not my job and it is in His domain – is now clear.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Everlasting grace:There is a way to quote certain parts of a post so you can directly that part.

You can highlight the part you want to discuss, and up on the toolbar where you see the 3 dots. Click that then click quote.

Or you can do as I did here and type in [ / quote ] (no spaces) at the end of the first part. then every time after. add [ quote ] no spaces in front, and end the section with [ / quote ] that should help you from having to repeat. If you need help let me know

WB: I could do what you’ve suggested but you seem to have missed my point about sections of my response to posts being edited out. And in your latest response you’ve done that very thing.


Everlasting grace: In your origional post. if you were coming from a calvinist point of view. that regeneration must take place first. then my origional comment to you stands, and I am sorry if you did not understand that comment.

WB: My intention is to present a Scriptural view as I am convinced that only God is infallible and only the Bible accurately informs readers of His thoughts.

That being the case I am convinced – and I’m speaking as a former atheist to give you some more context – that God gives to ‘some’ and indeed ‘many’ the gift of faith and that in that instant when someone e.g. WB is gifted with faith he is regenerated i.e. born again and is saved…whereas prior to that occasion WB was an unregenerate i.e. spiritually dead and unsaved man.

Is my position now made clear?

Everlasting grace: Do you believe justification comes before regeneration. or one is regenerated, then has faith, then is justified? from what you just posted. I still can not determine which way you believe

WB: Please tell which part(s) of “God gives the gift of faith and in that INSTANT (i.e. the instant that WB received FAITH) he is regenerated and saved.”



Everlasting grace: if you were not coming from a calvinist perspective, (that one m,ust be regenerated BEFORE they believe) then I wish you would have let me know. and we could have resolved the discussion. and that is why there may be confusion on your part.

WB: Is it not just possible that by trying to put my comments into a category, in this instance, that of Calvinism that you have created confusion for yourself?

As an aside, let me say this. I’ve read some of what Calvin has written and some of what Luther has written and I’ve also read some of what the Romanists have to say and whilst I find some of what those aforementioned have written to be of interest I consider their views only in the light of Scripture to see if what they present stands up to scrutiny.

In other words, I don’t put my faith in what any man has to say and the reason is that I know only too well that the default of Man is to get things wrong – even though they may very well be sincere.

So, I don’t identify as a Calvinist or a Lutheran or a Romanist ….and I identify as one who belongs to Jesus Christ who is my Lord and Saviour.

Everlasting grace: all of them would identify as one who belongs to Christ. so hopefully you have answered my question above and we can resolve this issue of what you believe.

thank you
WB: Well, hopefully my position – I cannot speak on behalf of “all of them [who] would identify as one who belongs to Christ”….that’s not my job and it is in His domain – is now clear.

I am sorry my friend

Your post is too confusing because you will not use the quote function.. I am not sure what is what.

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

God gives the opportunity to those who are seeking. God causes no one to believe.

Titus 2:11 refutes your opinion about Phil 1:29.

Many other verses clearly teach that God wants everyone to repent, and to believe the gospel.

Wrong, Phil 1:29 doesnt read

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to have an opportunity believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Thats wresting scripture friend, dangerous thing to do.

This is how it reads

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

To believe and to suffer are in the greek present active infinitives, God is acting, and infinitive mood is the mood of purpose and result, God is giving in order to bring about His purpose which results in believing.

So His purpose causes the result of believing, lest you want to say man can thwart Gods purpose, which is blasphemy in my opinion Isa 14:24

The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand

 

[Runningman]

Well, I can't say that I didn't try. Perhaps one day, God will grant you the opportunity to come to know these things.

Take care.

Ditto.

Blessings.

 

[WillB]

I agree with your point. I agree that God must make one alive, in spirit, before anything else can take place.

What I was trying to point out, to you, is that it is not accomplished by the gift of faith but rather by the gift of Grace. Grace is a Biblical term that embodies all of the tools needed for Salvation. Every step of Grace was determined in the mind of God. Grace proceeds in these steps, in the following way:

IN ETERNITY:
1.) It was in the mind of God before the foundation of the world. (God's Mercy and Compassion would be demonstrated - this is Grace.)
2.) It was embodied in the Son as It's Redeemer and Justifier. Jesus Christ our Lord. (The Executor of Grace.)
3.) It included an intimate knowledge of those whom God chose. (God's Love is demonstrated to them - in Grace.)
4.) It sealed them in Election. (God's Remnant was placed in the Eternal Covenant - by Grace.)
5.) It Predestinated them to It's purpose. (God's Elect is positioned - through Grace.)

IN TIME:
1.) It Called them by the Sovereign work of the Holy Spirit - Regeneration.

A.) This one act upon the fallen, sinful, Predestined person - accomplishes a myriad of things: 1.) It provides a working spirit and restores communion with God. 2.) The Holy Spirit indwells the recipient. 3.) It Seals the recipient for Christ. 4.) It gives a "new" nature. 5.) It opens the "eyes" and "ears" of spiritual understanding - so the Gospel can be "effectual". 6.) It makes saving Faith operable. 7.) It magnifies and glorifies the Person and Work of Jesus Christ.

2.) It Justifies the believer before his/her own conscience. (They come to know that they have been Justified, before God, through Faith - by Grace.)
3.) It Glorified them, in the mind of God and will Glorify them at the end of our mortal bodies. (The completed work of Grace.)

So, again, I agree with you. Faith is a gift because Grace includes it. I just wanted to help you see the whole of God's beautiful Plan, by His marvelous Grace.

God be with you.

awelight: So, again, I agree with you. Faith is a gift because Grace includes it. I just wanted to help you see the whole of God's beautiful Plan, by His marvelous Grace.

God be with you.

WB: Freegrace2 has been arguing that faith precedes salvation and disputed what I had to say and it seems that you didn’t fully understand my position…possibly I didn’t make myself clear even though I thought I’d done so.

So, I’m going to quote certain words from ‘Let God be God’ by Philip S. Watson who is discussing the theology of Martin Luther and with which I am in agreement.

“When through the outward preaching of the Word and the inward witness of the Holy Spirit, FAITH is created, that which is promised in the Gospel becomes effective for the believer. Christ, says Luther, enters by the Gospel through a man’s ears into his heart and dwells there; nor does He come empty-handed, but brings with Him His life, Spirit, and all that He has and can.” p. 167 [my added emphasis]

In other words, faith, which is a gift of God is accompanied in the “and all that He has and can,” by grace.

 

[WillB]

I am sorry my friend

Your post is too confusing because you will not use the quote function.. I am not sure what is what.

WB: I've tried to explain this to you and I can't see how you find my responses confusing especially when I put WB: in front of my comments and cite your comments with - Everlasting grace:

 

[FreeGrace2]

Wrong, Phil 1:29 doesnt read

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to have an opportunity believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

Thats wresting scripture friend, dangerous thing to do.

I've shown you verses that REFUTE your claims.

This is how it reads

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

YES, it is given to believe. That means the gospel has been presented to them.

So His purpose causes the result of believing, lest you want to say man can thwart Gods purpose, which is blasphemy in my opinion Isa 14:24

The Lord of hosts hath sworn, saying, Surely as I have thought, so shall it come to pass; and as I have purposed, so shall it stand

This has nothing to do with Phil 1:29.

Regarding your opinion regarding "thwarting God's purpose", have you never read Acts 7:51 - “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Please don't try to tell me that resisting the Holy Spirit isn't thwarting God's purpose.

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

I've shown you verses that REFUTE your claims.


YES, it is given to believe. That means the gospel has been presented to them.


This has nothing to do with Phil 1:29.

Regarding your opinion regarding "thwarting God's purpose", have you never read Acts 7:51 - “You stiff-necked people! Your hearts and ears are still uncircumcised. You are just like your ancestors: You always resist the Holy Spirit!

Please don't try to tell me that resisting the Holy Spirit isn't thwarting God's purpose.

Again, God gives some to believe on Christ Phil 1:29

29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;