The theif on the cross misconceptions

[DJT_47]

@Magenta @Runningman

In Hebrews chapter 6 this is written about 6 "elementary doctrines" (I numbered them):

"Therefore, leaving the discussion of the elementary principles of Christ, let us go on to perfection, not laying again the foundation of 1) repentance from dead works and of 2) faith toward God, of the 3) doctrine of baptisms, of 4) laying on of hands, of 5) resurrection of the dead, and of 6) eternal judgment. And this we will do if God permits."

Notice that there is a doctrine of baptisms; plural. Also, "baptism" has been made into a religious word but it was a very common word when the Bible was written. For example, if you wanted to dip a rag into water for cleaning you would "baptize" the rag into the water. The end result would be that the rag, because of the addition of the water, was now a more effective cleaning tool. So, baptize (baptismo) simply means "to immerse"

In my study there appears to be 4 baptisms. I've written about these before so I don't want to rehash it here. The types of baptisms are with fire, with water, by the Holy Spirit, and with the Holy Spirit.

There is one baptism that establishes our place within the Body of Christ: Baptism by the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12 records:

"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many."

"By one Spirit" signifies that the Holy Spirit is the one completing the baptism. And the baptism is into "one body". It is given to the saints to discern the place of each member of the body (but that is another topic).

So, baptism by the Spirit is the one baptism that recharacterizes the individual parts into One complete Body of Christ. And this is independent of each member's background, race, status, sex, education, etc. The Spirit decides this.

This baptism, by the Holy Spirit, is the "one baptism" (of the 4 total baptisms) referenced in Ephesians 4:

"There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

The hint is that Paul is writing about "one body" and the diversity of gifts among the many parts. In the book he writes extensively about how the parts are to work together. The framework for this is that all parts, individuals within the Body of Christ, make up the one body and are to work together in coordination with the head, who is Christ.

The Spirit places us in the Body to make the one Body of Christ.

Blessings.

A couple words of clarification for you.

Read the interlinear Greek for clarity of 1Cor 12. It doesn't say "by one Spirit" as does the KJV, but rather "in one Spirit" which makes a difference.

Eph 4:5

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism

The above word for baptism in the interlinear is 'baptisma', which is the same word used as in the baptism of John which was immersion in water as he baptized in the Jordan. So, the one baptism is NOT in the spirit but in water. Water baptism is the consistent baptism commencing with John's baptism which was "the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins". The baptism in Acts 2:38 is identical except it's in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. The word 'baptized' as found in Acts 2:38, "baptisheto" is derived from the same Greek word, "baptistheis" per the interlinear as also found in Mat 3:16, the water baptism of Jesus by John, and the same word in Mark 16:16, Jesus's commission, as well as Acts 8:13, refering to the baptism of Simon the sorcerer. All water baptism.

 

[Runningman]

I said nothing about being a priest in God's kingdom being because of water baptism.

Giving me what the Bible says is an improvement over past performances from you.

Unfortunately it did not answer the query.


What else is it for?

Got it. So you got nothing to alleviate the burden of proof for your comment.

 

[Magenta]

A couple words of clarification for you.

Read the interlinear Greek for clarity of 1Cor 12. It doesn't say "by one Spirit" as does the KJV, but rather "in one Spirit" which makes a difference.

Eph 4:5

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism

The above word for baptism in the interlinear is 'baptisma', which is the same word used as in the baptism of John which was immersion in water as he baptized in the Jordan. So, the one baptism is NOT in the spirit but in water. Water baptism is the consistent baptism commencing with John's baptism which was "the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins". The baptism in Acts 2:38 is identical except it's in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. The word 'baptized' as found in Acts 2:38, "baptisheto" is derived from the same Greek word, "baptistheis" per the interlinear as also found in Mat 3:16, the water baptism of Jesus by John, and the same word in Mark 16:16, Jesus's commission, as well as Acts 8:13, refering to the baptism of Simon the sorcerer. All water baptism.

That was 186 words.

 

[Magenta]

Got it. So you got nothing to alleviate the burden of proof for your comment.

Burden of proof? I gave it. You must be blind. Baptism was necessary for service in the priesthood as I showed earlier. (<= link)

Not sure what your problem is... but I do hope you have stopped stuffing words into Jesus' mouth and pretending He said them.

 

[Cameron143]

Exodus 29
Consecration of the Priests
1 “This is what you are to do to consecrate them, so they may serve me as priests: .... 4 Then
bring Aaron and his sons to the entrance to the tent of meeting and wash them with water.


Leviticus 8
The Ordination of Aaron and His Sons
8 The Lord said to Moses, 2 “Bring Aaron and his sons, their garments, the anointing oil, the bull
for the sin offering, the two rams and the basket containing bread made without yeast, 3 and gather
the entire assembly at the entrance to the tent of meeting.” 4 Moses did as the Lord commanded him,
and the assembly gathered at the entrance to the tent of meeting.

5 Moses said to the assembly, “This is what the Lord has commanded to be done.”
6 Then Moses brought Aaron and his sons forward and washed them with water.

It's interesting that they were already declared priests before the ceremony.

 

[Cameron143]

That was 186 words.

What's a couple hundred words amongst friends?

 

[Runningman]

Burden of proof? I gave it. You must be blind. Baptism was necessary for service in the priesthood as I showed earlier. (<= link)

Not sure what your problem is... but I do hope you have stopped stuffing words into Jesus' mouth and pretending He said them.

You replied to my comment about water baptism in regards to the New Covenant. Water baptism isn’t about prepping to be a priest in the New Covenant.

What you provided doesn’t have anything to do with the New Covenant, but rather with the Levitical priesthood. Keep up.

Post #141 is the post I’m referring to, btw.

 

[Magenta]

You replied to my comment about water baptism in regards to the New Covenant. Water baptism isn’t about prepping to be a priest in the New Covenant.

What you provided doesn’t have anything to do with the New Covenant, but rather with the Levitical priesthood. Keep up.

You have yet to answer. I gave the reason why baptism was practiced. You have given nothing.

 

[Magenta]

It's interesting that they were already declared priests before the ceremony.

They were born into the line of priesthood

All very symbolically connected to what is expected of Christians.

 

[Runningman]

You have yet to answer. I gave the reason why baptism was practiced. You have given nothing.

Clearly we’re not even talking about the same things. I haven’t switched gears since post #141.

 

[Magenta]

There is one baptism that establishes our place within the Body of Christ: Baptism by the Holy Spirit.
1 Corinthians 12 records:

"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free—
and have all been made to drink into one Spirit. For in fact the body is not one member but many."

"By one Spirit" signifies that the Holy Spirit is the one completing the baptism. And the baptism is into "one
body". It is given to the saints to discern the place of each member of the body (but that is another topic).

So, baptism by the Spirit is the one baptism that recharacterizes the individual parts into One complete Body of
Christ. And this is independent of each member's background, race, status, sex, education, etc. The Spirit decides this.

This baptism, by the Holy Spirit, is the "one baptism" (of the 4 total baptisms) referenced in Ephesians 4:

"There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord,
one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all."

The hint is that Paul is writing about "one body" and the diversity of gifts among the many parts.
In the book he writes extensively about how the parts are to work together. The framework for
this is that all parts, individuals within the Body of Christ, make up the one body and are to work
together in coordination with the head, who is Christ.

The Spirit places us in the Body to make the one Body of Christ.

Blessings.

That has been my position all along

 

[Cameron143]

They were born into the line of priesthood

All very symbolically connected to what is expected of Christians.

Whoa. God used figures and signs and symbols. When did this happen?

 

[Magenta]

Whoa. God used figures and signs and symbols. When did this happen?

ikr?

 

[Aaron56]

A couple words of clarification for you.

Read the interlinear Greek for clarity of 1Cor 12. It doesn't say "by one Spirit" as does the KJV, but rather "in one Spirit" which makes a difference.

Eph 4:5

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism

The above word for baptism in the interlinear is 'baptisma', which is the same word used as in the baptism of John which was immersion in water as he baptized in the Jordan. So, the one baptism is NOT in the spirit but in water. Water baptism is the consistent baptism commencing with John's baptism which was "the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins". The baptism in Acts 2:38 is identical except it's in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. The word 'baptized' as found in Acts 2:38, "baptisheto" is derived from the same Greek word, "baptistheis" per the interlinear as also found in Mat 3:16, the water baptism of Jesus by John, and the same word in Mark 16:16, Jesus's commission, as well as Acts 8:13, refering to the baptism of Simon the sorcerer. All water baptism.

Nope.

You forgot the principle of baptisms.

We are baptized into the body of Christ by the Spirit. This is elementary.

 

[Aaron56]

If you made a post about that somewhere I would love to read more about it brother Aaron.

Blessings.

Let me see if I can dig it up. It was a while ago. If I can find it I'll post a link to it here.

 

[Aaron56]

If you made a post about that somewhere I would love to read more about it brother Aaron.

Blessings.

Here are some writings wherein I addressed either baptisms or the elementary doctrines:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ss-baptism-enough.204566/page-10#post-4808283

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/what-did-jesus-mean.204474/page-10#post-4801478

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ementary-doctrines-an-immature-church.203252/

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...y-believe-in-jesus.202817/page-8#post-4721598

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/to-fulfil-all-righteousness.200717/#post-4628938

 

[ResidentAlien]

Eph 4:5

5One Lord, one faith, one baptism

The above word for baptism in the interlinear is 'baptisma', which is the same word used as in the baptism of John which was immersion in water as he baptized in the Jordan. So, the one baptism is NOT in the spirit but in water. Water baptism is the consistent baptism commencing with John's baptism which was "the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins". The baptism in Acts 2:38 is identical except it's in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins. The word 'baptized' as found in Acts 2:38, "baptisheto" is derived from the same Greek word, "baptistheis" per the interlinear as also found in Mat 3:16, the water baptism of Jesus by John, and the same word in Mark 16:16, Jesus's commission, as well as Acts 8:13, refering to the baptism of Simon the sorcerer. All water baptism.

Baptisma just means "a baptizing." It's used in other passages that don't refer to water baptism. Matthew 20:22 for example: "But Jesus answered and said, 'You do not know what you ask. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink, and be baptized with the baptism [baptisma] that I am baptized with?' "

Ephesians 4:5 is difficult. I wish it was more cut and dried but it isn't.

 

[Runningman]

Here are some writings wherein I addressed either baptisms or the elementary doctrines:

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ss-baptism-enough.204566/page-10#post-4808283

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/what-did-jesus-mean.204474/page-10#post-4801478

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...ementary-doctrines-an-immature-church.203252/

https://christianchat.com/bible-dis...y-believe-in-jesus.202817/page-8#post-4721598

https://christianchat.com/bible-discussion-forum/to-fulfil-all-righteousness.200717/#post-4628938

Thanks man I'm going to check those out tonight!

 

[cv5]

The thief on the cross misconceptions

I continually encounter people trying to justify that baptism is not an absolute necessity for one's salvation by use (erroneously) of the thief on the cross as justification, as he was not baptized but yet saved by the Lord, which is true! BUT, the error in this is the lack of understanding of the scriptures. You must read and understand Hebrews 9:15-17 which clarifies why the thief on the cross was saved by Jesus without being baptized. Christ was still alive when this occurred meaning it was done while the old testament or covenant was still in effect; the new testament had not yet been established because Christ had not yet died. And since the Lord was still alive no one could possibly be baptized into Christ under NT salvation criteria. Baptism did not become a requirement as part of salvation until the new testament began which was after the death of Christ. Jesus forgave the thief on the cross no different than he forgave others during his earthly ministry, such as the woman caught in the act of adultery as recorded in John 8. Baptism should not even be an issue when discussing the thief on the cross, but unfortunately always is, but in error.

Hebrews 9:15-17

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

16 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.

17 For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Well....after listening to a bible study just now, I am convinced the thief was an OT saint. The tipoff is verse 42 "thy kingdom". Which always means the earthly Kingdom post Second Coming, that which is promised to Israel.


Luk 23:42
And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luk 23:43
And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

 

[DJT_47]

Standard response: "BUT HE WAS A SPECIAL CASE" bla, bla, bla.

No different or more special than others Jesus forgave during his earthly ministry such as the woman caught in the act of adultery. All done while Jesus was yet alive under the old covenant wherein baptism was not a requirement nor became one for salvation until after the death of Christ.