Speaking in Tongues

[wattie]

The completed New Testament desires that we did all speak in tongues and earnestly seek the gifts especially that we may prophesy.

It is the completed New Testament we are following.

The completed NT also has snake handling, the custom of foot washing, tongues of fire coming on the assembly at Jerusalem, plus other customs and exceptional things that were part of the times then.

If Paul wrote to the church at Corinth.. then it is firstly for them.

For it to be for us today would require no future limitations on what is being followed.

That is just normal biblical interpretation.

If a leader now says there is a law that all must wear t shirts.. it would apply to us but then 10 years in the future something could happen that annuls that law.

So 'don't forbid to speak in tongues' is to people 2000 years ago.. that may apply to now if the perfect thing is not the finished inspiration of the Scriptures.

But the principle of saying it is to them, there and then.. is completely normal biblical interpretation.

 

[Pilgrimshope]

This from James also came to mind

2 Consider it pure joy, my brothers and sisters, whenever you face trials of many kinds, 3 because
you know that the testing of your faith produces perseverance. 4 Let perseverance finish its work
so that you may be mature and complete, not lacking anything. 5 If any of you lacks wisdom, you
should ask God, who gives generously to all without finding fault, and it will be given to you.

“All these are the beginning of sorrows. Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.

And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭24:8-13‬ ‭KJV‬‬

Perseverance through fire

“And before the throne there was a sea of glass like unto crystal:
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭4:6‬ ‭KJV‬‬

“And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭8:5‬ ‭

refiners fire pressure , heat purification testing pressure refinement purification by fire

“And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭15:2‬ ‭KJV‬‬

amen to at theme is deeply sewn into the fabric of scripture

a testing of faith as time goes on the metal is heated and stressed but afterwards all the impurities are burned away and the metal is purified

Jesus teachings are that refiners fire it teaches us and tests us and presses us forward into the truths of God able to heal Our impurities and love away our wrongs

 

[Wansvic]

@hornetguy In addition to my response in post #320. I neglected to stress the point that Peter and the others knew the Gentiles had received the Holy Ghost when they heard them speak in tongues. (Acts 10:44-48)

This is also alluded to in the Samaritan conversion experience. How did Philip know the group had not received the Holy Ghost? The scripture indicates they heard and believed the gospel message. Yet, Peter and John came days later in order for them to receive the Holy Ghost. (Acts 8:12-18)

 

[DavidTree]

I think you would find something to contend with no matter what.
Humility comes as God wills and does in us...Philippians 2:13. This is heightened as we spend time in the presence of God...2 Corinthians 3:18.
If people were truly spending time in the presence of God beholding His Son, the results here would be greatly in contrast to what actually transpires.

Your response lacked the humility which you speak of = "I think you would find something to contend with no matter what."

Correct = they would be believing God's words as the Holy Spirit speaks them thru us confirming His Will = found in His Word.
The Presence of His Son is the Holy Spirit and the Word.

Jesus prayed this for us: "But now I am coming to You(Father); and I am saying these things while I am in the world, so that they may have My joy fulfilled within them. I have given them Your word and the world has hated them; for they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I have also sent them into the world. For them I sanctify Myself, so that they too may be sanctified by the truth.


Constantly arguing against the scripture because we may not agree with the person is not a sign of humility.

Even worse is twisting scripture so that it conforms to that which we want it to say as opposed to what, in fact, it does say.

When a Brother/Sister speaks Truth = Yeah and Amen

When a post is challenged, God's will for everyone is to go to His Word with prayer and study and LOVE the TRUTH.

When you LOVE the TRUTH you are sanctified by His Presence.

 

[DavidTree]

No it doesn't. It saddens you when you can't control or manipulate someone. I've had enough experience with cults to know a manipulator when I see one.

Does falsely accusing your brethren appeal to you?

"Out of the heart a man speaks."

 

[DavidTree]

what do you do when two Christian’s read the same scriptures and understand it differently ?

#1 Read it again and again to make sure and then, if needed, seek another Brother/Sister in Christ to read it and share.

#2.

brother I quoted all those too lol you have your opinion of what’s there again though where does the scriptire say what your saying ? It actually doesn’t it’s just how your interpreting it , it’s the same for me it’s just how I’m reading it

Do you see what I’m saying brother let’s do this tongues is a sign for unbelievers

why do I say that ?


“Wherefore tongues are for a sign, not to them that believe, but to them that believe not: but prophesying serveth not for them that believe not, but for them which believe.

If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?”
‭‭1 Corinthians‬ ‭14:22-23‬ ‭

now what I was asking you is where do the scriptures explain the personal benefit of tongues

again I’m not asking for you to explain it apart from scriptire im asking you do you know of any scriptures that say what your saying

like if I made the point tongues is a sign for unbelievers that point is written down in scriptire I don’t have to explain it I can just show you the quote

like when I said tongues isn’t a benefit unless there’s an interpretation I quoted that to you I didn’t have to explain it and convince you I just quoted the actual verse

that’s what I’m asking if you do you know any scriptures that are saying what you are saying ???

You never answered the question in Post 333:
Where is my 'opinion' in Post 329 when giving the direct quote from the Apostle Paul.

Your question = "you have your opinion of what’s there again though where does the scriptire say what your saying ?
It actually doesn’t it’s just how your interpreting it , it’s the same for me it’s just how I’m reading it"

The Holy Spirit has given you the answer but you reject it and then seek to say that it is my opinion or interpretation.

There is no opinion or interpretation of mine found in the direct quote from the Apostle in Post 329.

Now why would you be arguing against the words of the Holy Spirit thru the Apostle Paul?

Direct Quote:

v2 - "For he who speaks in a tongue does not speak to men but to God, for no one understands him;
however, in the spirit he speaks mysteries."
v4 The one who speaks in a tongue edifies himself,

v14 For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.

v15 What then shall I do? I will pray with my spirit, but I will also pray with my mind. I will sing with my spirit, but I will also sing with my mind.

 

[hornetguy]

The source of ALL the gifts is the Holy Spirit, again, Jesus did not receive separate gifts, His anointing of Holy Spirit from John gave Him ALL the power and authority He needed.
He imparted to the 12, with the command to heal, raise, cast out, etc. from the same source, Holy Spirit infilling, NOT separate gifting, there are some who are stronger in areas according the the work He calls them to, but it is the same gifting.

What happened with the 12 is different than with all that have come since them. Otherwise Paul would not have written anything about how the body of Christ, the church, is just like a human body. Different parts have different gifts/functions, in order to strengthen and enable the church to be a fully functioning entity.

Sorry to disagree, but your understanding of 1 Corinthians and mine are quite different. Again, it is the one Spirit, we agree.... but the "gifts" that, scripturally, are given to us by the Spirit are most definitely different.

"7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines."

 

[Cameron143]

Your response lacked the humility which you speak of = "I think you would find something to contend with no matter what."

Correct = they would be believing God's words as the Holy Spirit speaks them thru us confirming His Will = found in His Word.
The Presence of His Son is the Holy Spirit and the Word.

Jesus prayed this for us: "But now I am coming to You(Father); and I am saying these things while I am in the world, so that they may have My joy fulfilled within them. I have given them Your word and the world has hated them; for they are not of the world, just as I am not of the world.

I am not asking that You take them out of the world, but that You keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, just as I am not of the world. Sanctify them by the truth; Your word is truth. As You sent Me into the world, I have also sent them into the world. For them I sanctify Myself, so that they too may be sanctified by the truth.


Constantly arguing against the scripture because we may not agree with the person is not a sign of humility.

Even worse is twisting scripture so that it conforms to that which we want it to say as opposed to what, in fact, it does say.

When a Brother/Sister speaks Truth = Yeah and Amen

When a post is challenged, God's will for everyone is to go to His Word with prayer and study and LOVE the TRUTH.

When you LOVE the TRUTH you are sanctified by His Presence.

I think you are a little confused. It's not a lack of humility to say another will do something and then they do. It's discernment.
I said you would contend no matter what and then you did.
I'm surprised you don't think I have some form of the gift of prophesy.

 

[hornetguy]

@hornetguy In addition to my response in post #320. I neglected to stress the point that Peter and the others knew the Gentiles had received the Holy Ghost when they heard them speak in tongues. (Acts 10:44-48)

This is also alluded to in the Samaritan conversion experience. How did Philip know the group had not received the Holy Ghost? The scripture indicates they heard and believed the gospel message. Yet, Peter and John came days later in order for them to receive the Holy Ghost. (Acts 8:12-18)

Yes, and as I have pointed out many times in previous discussions about this, the Gentiles speaking in tongues after Peter laid hands on them was a "one off" kind of event.... it happened primarily to show to the Jews that the Gentiles were accepted by God. Peter even stresses that fact himself.

"46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."

 

[DavidTree]

I think you are a little confused. It's not a lack of humility to say another will do something and then they do. It's discernment.
I said you would contend no matter what and then you did.
I'm surprised you don't think I have some form of the gift of prophesy.

Let us follow the truth of the matter:

In my Post 337 i was agreeing with you and your Post 330 in which you spoke of love and humilty quoting this verse:
"Let nothing be done through strife or vain glory; but in lowliness of mind, let each esteem other as better than himself."

Forgetting what you posted in #330 you hypocritically respond with: ""I think you would find something to contend with no matter what."

You voided your sought after "humility" and rejected the truth of which you recommended = "let each esteem other as better than himself".

You behaved hypocritically against a Brother who was agreeing with you from the start.

You boast of having discernment but was unable to discern the dilemma you placed yourself in, beginning with your post 330?

Your response will be telling.

BTW - i have nothing against you Brother other then that which was stated here.

 

[Cameron143]

Let us follow the truth of the matter:

In my Post 337 i was agreeing with you and your Post 330 in which you spoke of love and humilty quoting this verse:
"Let nothing be done through strife or vain glory; but in lowliness of mind, let each esteem other as better than himself."

Forgetting what you posted in #330 you hypocritically respond with: ""I think you would find something to contend with no matter what."

You voided your sought after "humility" and rejected the truth of which you recommended = "let each esteem other as better than himself".

You behaved hypocritically against a Brother who was agreeing with you from the start.

You boast of having discernment but was unable to discern the dilemma you placed yourself in, beginning with your post 330?

Your response will be telling.

BTW - i have nothing against you Brother other then that which was stated here.

And I have nothing against you even given what you have said. I'm just having some fun with you. And my aim is for your betterment, whether you recognize it or not.
If you have taken offense I have no problem apologizing. Just let me know.

 

[Wansvic]

Yes, and as I have pointed out many times in previous discussions about this, the Gentiles speaking in tongues after Peter laid hands on them was a "one off" kind of event.... it happened primarily to show to the Jews that the Gentiles were accepted by God. Peter even stresses that fact himself.

"46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."

Peter did not lay hands on them to prompt the indwelling of the Holy Ghost. That occurred spontaneously in verse 44:
"While Peter yet spake these words, the Holy Ghost fell on all them which heard the word."

"And they of the circumcision which believed were astonished, as many as came with Peter, because that on the Gentiles also was poured out the gift of the Holy Ghost.

46 For they heard them speak with tongues, and magnify God. Then answered Peter,..." verses 45 and 46

 

[Wansvic]

@hornetguy If speaking in tongues was only to show that a specific group of people was accepted of God there would no records of individuals experiencing the same thing. And there is. The twelve Ephesian individuals experienced the same thing:

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." Acts 19:6

 

[shittim]

What happened with the 12 is different than with all that have come since them. Otherwise Paul would not have written anything about how the body of Christ, the church, is just like a human body. Different parts have different gifts/functions, in order to strengthen and enable the church to be a fully functioning entity.

Sorry to disagree, but your understanding of 1 Corinthians and mine are quite different. Again, it is the one Spirit, we agree.... but the "gifts" that, scripturally, are given to us by the Spirit are most definitely different.

"7 Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good. 8 To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom, to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit, 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit, 10 to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,[a] and to still another the interpretation of tongues.[b] 11 All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines."

Yep, that's what it says, in practice He will grow us as much as we will be grown.
John Wimber shared at the near end of his walk that he would still get frequent Word's of Knowledge for people of lost things and such, it was still accessible to him by Spirit.

Yes, and as I have pointed out many times in previous discussions about this, the Gentiles speaking in tongues after Peter laid hands on them was a "one off" kind of event.... it happened primarily to show to the Jews that the Gentiles were accepted by God. Peter even stresses that fact himself.

"46 For they were hearing them speaking with tongues and exalting God. Then Peter answered, 47 “Surely no one can refuse the water for these to be baptized who have received the Holy Spirit just as we did, can he?” 48 And he ordered them to be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ."

We are all required to grow in the Spirit, not receive salvation and rest.
Jesus was very clear, some would do greater works than He.
He Himself grew as His ministry went forward, the disciples themselves, needed to ask Him instruction on how to pray that they could have Holy Spirit work through them, once they brought someone they could not cast a demon from.
How He "gifts", one at a time or all at once is really a small part of walking with Him 24/7/365.
best wishes

 

[hornetguy]

Peter did not lay hands on them to prompt the indwelling of the Holy Ghost.

Yeah, I was confusing this occurrence with the time that Paul laid hands on some disciples at Ephesus....

Still doesn't change the situation, and the reason for the speaking in tongues.....

 

[Wansvic]

Yeah, I was confusing this occurrence with the time that Paul laid hands on some disciples at Ephesus....

Still doesn't change the situation, and the reason for the speaking in tongues.....

Actually it does.

As I mentioned in the post to which you referenced the experience was a "one off" incident that showed the individuals were accepted:

If speaking in tongues was only to show that a specific group of people was accepted of God there would be no records of individuals from one of those groups experiencing the same thing. And there is. This happened as recorded in the conversion experience of the twelve Ephesian individuals:

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." Acts 19:6

Consider as well Paul's question, "Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed?" How do you suppose Paul expected the group to know they had received the Holy Ghost and if the experience had occurred upon belief or afterwards?

 

[ResidentAlien]

Actually it does.

As I mentioned in the post to which you referenced the experience was a "one off" incident that showed the individuals were accepted:

If speaking in tongues was only to show that a specific group of people was accepted of God there would be no records of individuals from one of those groups experiencing the same thing. And there is. This happened as recorded in the conversion experience of the twelve Ephesian individuals:

"And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came on them; and they spake with tongues, and prophesied." Acts 19:6

Consider as well Paul's question, "Have you received the Holy Ghost SINCE you believed?" How do you suppose Paul expected the group to know they had received the Holy Ghost and if the experience had occurred upon belief or afterwards?

Regardless of how a person interprets this passage it doesn't change the fact that it says nothing to suggest that the gift of tongues is active today. If anything it shows it was given by Paul laying his hands on them. They weren't just ordinary individuals who prayed for tongues and received the gift.

 

[Beckie]

The source of ALL the gifts is the Holy Spirit, again, Jesus did not receive separate gifts, His anointing of Holy Spirit from John gave Him ALL the power and authority He needed.
He imparted to the 12, with the command to heal, raise, cast out, etc. from the same source, Holy Spirit infilling, NOT separate gifting, there are some who are stronger in areas according the the work He calls them to, but it is the same gifting.

So John the Baptist gave Jesus His anointing? What kind of a cult are you in ?

 

[DavidTree]

And I have nothing against you even given what you have said. I'm just having some fun with you. And my aim is for your betterment, whether you recognize it or not.
If you have taken offense I have no problem apologizing. Just let me know.

Just returned from work now.

Your love and the love of the Brethren is precious to me and i also want to have more love and humility as you reminded us of.

PS - you absolutely can have some brotherly fun with me = i was not picking up on that so forgive me

 

[Polar]

The completed NT also has snake handling, the custom of foot washing, tongues of fire coming on the assembly at Jerusalem, plus other customs and exceptional things that were part of the times then.

perhaps reading or studying scripture rather than creating an anecdotal and prejudiced rendering, would grant a more genteel understanding

there is no snake handling in scripture. this is what scripture states:
they will pick up snakes with their hands, and if they drink any deadly poison, it will not harm them; they will lay their hands on the sick, and they will be made well. Mark 16:18

two interesting things about Mark 16. Verses 9-20 are considered by many experts to be spurious. The other interesting thing, is that the only recorded incident with snakes is Paul being bitten and shaking off the snake when he was shipwrecked. There is no advice or instruction about handling snakes (poisonous)

the custom of foot washing: here is where a little knowledge of customs of the day would go a long way. wearing sandals in hot and dusty Israel would incur hot and dusty feet. I live in FL and can attest to feet becoming dirty and dusty if sandals are worn on paths with no grass or roads with no grass. but how do you possibly seem to equate foot washing with something ONLY done 2000 years ago?

the Bible does not ever state there were actual tongues of fire resting on those receiving the Holy Spirit. This is what scripture states:

They saw what seemed to be tongues of fire that separated and came to rest on each of them. Acts 2:3

it was not fire; they described what they saw as fire.

The worst thing, is describing customs as equitable with spiritual realities that it seems you desire no part of

as I maintain, (possibly with few exceptions such as what happened to Paul), don't worry. these things will not be forced upon you