Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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To be clear, those you are describing are Calvinists. Non calvinists would NEVER claim such nonsense. The truth is that a believer can cease to believe, just as Jesus noted in the second soil, per Luke 8:13. But John 5:24 with 10:28 very clearly prove that believers have eternal life, and recipients of eternal life shall never perish.
So, even when a believer ceases to believe, since had been given eternal life, Jesus' promise about never perishing still holds.
Fighting for the Truth. As Jesus taught.
He also deceives believers.
So you don't believe what Jesus said about believing having eternal life and those having eternal life shall never perish? Why not?
So, even when a believer ceases to believe, since had been given eternal life, Jesus' promise about never perishing still holds.
Fighting for the Truth. As Jesus taught.
He also deceives believers.
So you don't believe what Jesus said about believing having eternal life and those having eternal life shall never perish? Why not?
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This is hilarious! You think Jesus would tell me that I'm wrong for quoting what He said.
Do you even know what you are saying here? Get a grip.
The problem is that people who don't understand what grace is have attributed their anti-grace attitude toward sin to what God thinks.
iow, since someone else's sins are so offensive, they just can't be allowed into heaven, and God must be just as offended and will not let them in.
Fact: Jesus Christ died for all sins of all people. That means they have been judged and paid for. So no one goes to the LOF on the basis of sins. Those who will be cast into the LOF never received eternal life. Rev 20:15
We are saved by grace.
We are kept by that very same grace.
There is no sin that breaks God's grace. But Arminians think there are.
Do you even know what you are saying here? Get a grip.
The problem is that people who don't understand what grace is have attributed their anti-grace attitude toward sin to what God thinks.
iow, since someone else's sins are so offensive, they just can't be allowed into heaven, and God must be just as offended and will not let them in.
Fact: Jesus Christ died for all sins of all people. That means they have been judged and paid for. So no one goes to the LOF on the basis of sins. Those who will be cast into the LOF never received eternal life. Rev 20:15
We are saved by grace.
We are kept by that very same grace.
There is no sin that breaks God's grace. But Arminians think there are.
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OK, so the point of this thread is to "fight for the truth". Let's consider that.
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
It has been well known that many of these denominational churches are drying up and are dead just like Sardis. The kids grow up in these denominations and as soon as they are old enough they are gone because they know the church is dead. Soon all you see is a bunch of old people and just about no one else in the congregation.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
OK, so you have faith, you believe that once saved always saved is the true doctrine of the Bible. Go ahead, show me a church full of saved people who have no works and I'll show you a dead church. Meanwhile if you are saved then show me by your works. Let me see that you are an expression of Christ.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
This is why the satanists think atheists are fools. The satanists believe in God, they also are waiting for the rapture because that is when the restrainer that is restraining them will step aside and let them loose.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
If you are fighting for the truth no one is going to believe you are saved if they don't also see the works. You will be preaching a dead Christianity where nothing else matters but what happened fifty years ago.
James 2:17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
It has been well known that many of these denominational churches are drying up and are dead just like Sardis. The kids grow up in these denominations and as soon as they are old enough they are gone because they know the church is dead. Soon all you see is a bunch of old people and just about no one else in the congregation.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
OK, so you have faith, you believe that once saved always saved is the true doctrine of the Bible. Go ahead, show me a church full of saved people who have no works and I'll show you a dead church. Meanwhile if you are saved then show me by your works. Let me see that you are an expression of Christ.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
This is why the satanists think atheists are fools. The satanists believe in God, they also are waiting for the rapture because that is when the restrainer that is restraining them will step aside and let them loose.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
If you are fighting for the truth no one is going to believe you are saved if they don't also see the works. You will be preaching a dead Christianity where nothing else matters but what happened fifty years ago.
And who is it that takes Biblical warnings seriously? And orders their lives accordingly? Believers? Or unbelievers?
Lot's wife did not. Most of the Canaanites (other than Rahab and her house) did not, knowing full well who and what was coming upon them. Most of the Pharisees did not.
But some do. Some always do. Today these are the ones who are conscious of having the Blood on their doorposts and lintel.
Lot's wife did not. Most of the Canaanites (other than Rahab and her house) did not, knowing full well who and what was coming upon them. Most of the Pharisees did not.
But some do. Some always do. Today these are the ones who are conscious of having the Blood on their doorposts and lintel.
FreeGrace2 said:
Fighting for the Truth. As Jesus taught.
Let's really consider that a number of posters are flat-out rejecting the truth that Jesus taught regarding eternal security.
What does this verse have to do with loss of salvation? Nothing at all. James' point is summarized in the next verse:
v.18 - But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
Notice where the quote marks are, which is what all the translations that include quote marks do.
Now read the verse with the correct quote mark ending:
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."
Do you see the difference? In the first quote, the sentences make no sense if all the "someone" says is "you have faith and I have deeds". Sort of a SO WHAT? kind of statement.
But the corrected quote makes sense. The "someone" is making the point that in order to demonstrate your faith, you must have works.
True, and irrelevant to this discussion.
I notice that your quote leaves out quote marks altogether, which is better than all the translations that put them in incorrectly.
At least in quoting without any quote marks it reads like the "someone" or "man" says both sentences, which is the only way for the verse to make sense. His point is clear. To "show your faith" you must have deeds.
What are you talking about? What "satanists" believe in God? That's absurd. They worship satan. And they aren't "waiting for the rapture" since they don't believe anything the Bible says.
Right!! Go back to v.18 which is making that exact point!
I see no point here.
Fighting for the Truth. As Jesus taught.
Let's really consider that a number of posters are flat-out rejecting the truth that Jesus taught regarding eternal security.
What does this verse have to do with loss of salvation? Nothing at all. James' point is summarized in the next verse:
v.18 - But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds.” Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds.
Notice where the quote marks are, which is what all the translations that include quote marks do.
Now read the verse with the correct quote mark ending:
But someone will say, “You have faith; I have deeds. Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by my deeds."
Do you see the difference? In the first quote, the sentences make no sense if all the "someone" says is "you have faith and I have deeds". Sort of a SO WHAT? kind of statement.
But the corrected quote makes sense. The "someone" is making the point that in order to demonstrate your faith, you must have works.
True, and irrelevant to this discussion.
I notice that your quote leaves out quote marks altogether, which is better than all the translations that put them in incorrectly.
At least in quoting without any quote marks it reads like the "someone" or "man" says both sentences, which is the only way for the verse to make sense. His point is clear. To "show your faith" you must have deeds.
What are you talking about? What "satanists" believe in God? That's absurd. They worship satan. And they aren't "waiting for the rapture" since they don't believe anything the Bible says.
Right!! Go back to v.18 which is making that exact point!
I see no point here.
Peter puts this altogether in the most concise way possible.
1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Yes, we are elect according to God's foreknowledge. God has set up everything in such a way that it has led to our salvation. However, it is "through" sanctification. The word you heard, the fellowship you had, the worship, the time in the word, all these things are sanctifying you and your election is through sanctification. God chooses us through our sanctification of the Spirit. This sanctification results in obedience. If we do not see obedience then there is a problem. If we do not see sanctification we have a really big problem. It also results in the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. The priests would sprinkle the blood. We are sanctified, transformed into a priesthood which is sprinkling little drops of salvation wherever we go.
The only thing in this process that is once for all is what God did.
Sanctification of the Spirit is a lifetime of spending time immersed in the Spirit. If you are not obeying the speaking of the Lord you are lacking in sanctification, spend more time in prayer, in the word, in fellowship.
But if everything is working properly you will express a priest of God sprinkling drops of salvation wherever you go.
1Peter 1:2 Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.
Yes, we are elect according to God's foreknowledge. God has set up everything in such a way that it has led to our salvation. However, it is "through" sanctification. The word you heard, the fellowship you had, the worship, the time in the word, all these things are sanctifying you and your election is through sanctification. God chooses us through our sanctification of the Spirit. This sanctification results in obedience. If we do not see obedience then there is a problem. If we do not see sanctification we have a really big problem. It also results in the sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ. The priests would sprinkle the blood. We are sanctified, transformed into a priesthood which is sprinkling little drops of salvation wherever we go.
The only thing in this process that is once for all is what God did.
Sanctification of the Spirit is a lifetime of spending time immersed in the Spirit. If you are not obeying the speaking of the Lord you are lacking in sanctification, spend more time in prayer, in the word, in fellowship.
But if everything is working properly you will express a priest of God sprinkling drops of salvation wherever you go.
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Jude writes about our common salvation and specifically about contending for the faith.
What is the first thing he tells us? People have crept into the church and turn the grace of God into lasciviousness.
If you are really contending for the faith you would expose this. How do you turn the grace of God into lasciviousness? Paul already told us, they tell you that we have been saved by faith, it is the free gift of grace, and so we can sin all we want so that grace can abound.
These guys then deny the Lord. We see this in the apostasy. The Lord is the incarnated word of God, so they deny the word of God. It is easy to see this because the Lord has given us a very clear signpost to recognize 95% of all apostasy churches. The pastor is a member of the LGBTQ+ community. That is a crystal clear denial of the word of God. Now a denomination could have a hundred congregations and in five of them you have a pastor who is the husband of one wife. The point is they teach as a doctrine that you can ignore God's word.
What is it that Jude reminds us of first? He reminds us that those who were saved and delivered from Egypt were later destroyed because they believed not. The examples that were given to us were not "once saved always saved". Yes they were saved from Egypt, yes they crossed the red sea and saw Pharaoh's army drowned, but later they were destroyed. This is Jude, telling us about our common salvation and telling us how to contend for the faith.
What is the first thing he tells us? People have crept into the church and turn the grace of God into lasciviousness.
If you are really contending for the faith you would expose this. How do you turn the grace of God into lasciviousness? Paul already told us, they tell you that we have been saved by faith, it is the free gift of grace, and so we can sin all we want so that grace can abound.
These guys then deny the Lord. We see this in the apostasy. The Lord is the incarnated word of God, so they deny the word of God. It is easy to see this because the Lord has given us a very clear signpost to recognize 95% of all apostasy churches. The pastor is a member of the LGBTQ+ community. That is a crystal clear denial of the word of God. Now a denomination could have a hundred congregations and in five of them you have a pastor who is the husband of one wife. The point is they teach as a doctrine that you can ignore God's word.
What is it that Jude reminds us of first? He reminds us that those who were saved and delivered from Egypt were later destroyed because they believed not. The examples that were given to us were not "once saved always saved". Yes they were saved from Egypt, yes they crossed the red sea and saw Pharaoh's army drowned, but later they were destroyed. This is Jude, telling us about our common salvation and telling us how to contend for the faith.
FreeGrace2 said:
I see no point here.
You have quoted several veses from ch 2, but I suspect that you haven't read any of it.
James didn't menion fighting or truth. He did speak the truth about how to demonstrate your faith. Actually he worded it this way: "show your faith by your deeds", but means the same thing.
That is his point.
Exactly. James isn't saying that no deeds means no faith at all.
I see no point here.
You have quoted several veses from ch 2, but I suspect that you haven't read any of it.
James didn't menion fighting or truth. He did speak the truth about how to demonstrate your faith. Actually he worded it this way: "show your faith by your deeds", but means the same thing.
That is his point.
Exactly. James isn't saying that no deeds means no faith at all.
Do you know WHAT we (believers) are elected FOR? Hint: it is in the verse.
Actually, He set up everything so that anyone can be saved. Titus 2:11 is real clear.
No, it is "though faith". Eph 2:8 says so plainly. What verse says we are saved through sanctification?
How many different sanctifications are you aware of in the Bible?
Do you have any verses that say this? I study the way the Bereans studied those who taught.
Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what ZNP said was true.
So please show me. I can't find any verse that says what you say.
Uh, that's not what 2 Thess 2:13 says.
Verse, please, before I will believe your claim.
True, but do you understand what Paul taught in Gal 5:16-21?
How do you "see" sanctification? Are you referring to deeds?
Nothing "results in the sprinkling of Jesus' blood. That occurred about 2,000 years ago. You're late. Real late.
What? Where do you get this little nugget?
Again, do you have a verse that says this?
Do you know how to be in fellowship with the Lord? There IS a verse for that.
Again, where did you get this notion of sprinkling drops of salvation wherever you go??
Actually, He set up everything so that anyone can be saved. Titus 2:11 is real clear.
No, it is "though faith". Eph 2:8 says so plainly. What verse says we are saved through sanctification?
How many different sanctifications are you aware of in the Bible?
Do you have any verses that say this? I study the way the Bereans studied those who taught.
Acts 17:11 - Now the Berean Jews were of more noble character than those in Thessalonica, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures every day to see if what ZNP said was true.
So please show me. I can't find any verse that says what you say.
Uh, that's not what 2 Thess 2:13 says.
Verse, please, before I will believe your claim.
True, but do you understand what Paul taught in Gal 5:16-21?
How do you "see" sanctification? Are you referring to deeds?
Nothing "results in the sprinkling of Jesus' blood. That occurred about 2,000 years ago. You're late. Real late.
What? Where do you get this little nugget?
Again, do you have a verse that says this?
Do you know how to be in fellowship with the Lord? There IS a verse for that.
Again, where did you get this notion of sprinkling drops of salvation wherever you go??
So you think that Jude and Paul were at odds in what they taught? This is what Paul said about that generation:
1 Cor 10:1-5
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
Do you understand the baptism in v.2? And did any Jew get wet while "in the sea"?
Do you understand what Paul was saying in v.3 and 4?
As to your comment about them being "destroyed", that is shown in the red words of v.5. However, that doesn't refer to hell. It refers to their physical death due to their lack of lifestyle faith of trusting in God for all of their needs. All they did was complain about what they didn't have. Cry babies all the way. So God took them home.
Divine discipline includes physical death. 1 Cor 11:30, 5:5
Paul NEVER taught that salvation could be lost, or he would NEVER have written Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.
Question: were Pharoah's army baptized in the sea?
He wasn't warning them of any possibility of losing their salvation. He was telling them to defend the faith.
1 Cor 10:1-5
1 For I do not want you to be ignorant of the fact, brothers and sisters, that our ancestors were all under the cloud and that they all passed through the sea.
2 They were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea.
3 They all ate the same spiritual food
4 and drank the same spiritual drink; for they drank from the spiritual rock that accompanied them, and that rock was Christ.
5 Nevertheless, God was not pleased with most of them; their bodies were scattered in the wilderness.
Do you understand the baptism in v.2? And did any Jew get wet while "in the sea"?
Do you understand what Paul was saying in v.3 and 4?
As to your comment about them being "destroyed", that is shown in the red words of v.5. However, that doesn't refer to hell. It refers to their physical death due to their lack of lifestyle faith of trusting in God for all of their needs. All they did was complain about what they didn't have. Cry babies all the way. So God took them home.
Divine discipline includes physical death. 1 Cor 11:30, 5:5
Paul NEVER taught that salvation could be lost, or he would NEVER have written Eph 1:13,14, 4:30, 2 Cor 1:22 and 5:5.
Question: were Pharoah's army baptized in the sea?
He wasn't warning them of any possibility of losing their salvation. He was telling them to defend the faith.
The elect are those who believe. Not those who are selected, those selected are those who believe. The best we can hope for is to get the scripture right as to it's correct interpretation. "Demas has forsaken me having loved this present world". Demas was an apostle, apparantly he fell away, like a branch that did not abide in the Vine but withered and we know what happens to those branches. I am not dogmatic about once saved always saved . I think the bigger issue is are you in an obedient relationship or are you willy nilly and can't discern Christs will from your own ? There is also a difference between" God working in you to will and to do" and self-effort in the arm of the flesh. Why would the Apostle Paul say , "Work out your own Salvation with fear and trembling" but also labor to enter into the rest ? I am saved by grace through faith in His Blood. But I am in covenant. Highlight the Ifs , If you Obey, If you continue, If you abide . Does this mean I am saved by works no.. I am a new creation, God works in me to will and to do. I pray because God draws me otherwise I cannot . I am thankful for that . I am kept by the power of God unto salvation. He is committed to me Abiding , he does His part. We are called into discipleship , I think I'll have more to say about that in awhile. Simple is better. In general the posts are too long , this one as well . We like to talk about our Savior but writing a book is naive if we intend to be heard.
Yes, we have a covenant. A covenant is a legal contract, there are promises, but there are also obligations on both sides. When I was a teacher I would start the year with a contract. I told my kids if they followed my lead and did what I said that not only would they pass the class but they would pass the state exam at the end of the year. There were at least six other teachers in the same building teaching the same subject and they had about half their kids pass the exam. So this was a very bold promise. I remember one kid came to see me after the state exam to see what he had got. He was one of those kids that had kept his side of the bargain. I looked at my sheet and grimaced and said 'I was sorry he had missed it by one point. You got an 89, one more point and you would have had a 90'. He was in shock, when I said he had missed it by one point he thought he had failed the exam. These were kids who were used to failure, expected to fail, so even after a year they still had a hard time believing they were capable of being honors students. But they have to obey. You have to show up to class and do the assignments.
We have a lot of promises in the Bible, but the key is that we are immersed into the triune God everyday, and that we eat His flesh and drink His blood. That in turn requires maintaining the fellowship with all saints and being reconciled with everyone who is offended with you.
We have a lot of promises in the Bible, but the key is that we are immersed into the triune God everyday, and that we eat His flesh and drink His blood. That in turn requires maintaining the fellowship with all saints and being reconciled with everyone who is offended with you.
it doesn't matter about the Promise. the Promise is based upon you CHOOSING to Trust. if you choose to stop trusting there is no longer any Promise. the Person holds the position to which they want to be in. God is only rewarding those WHO continue to Trust Him!
Paul also tells us only when we TRUST God are we Sealed and Guaranteed. and since that is OUR DECISION to make, we can Trust today and stop trusting tomorrow. but the Guarantee [[is ONLY]] based upon if we continue to TRUST in God!
Paul also tells us only when we TRUST God are we Sealed and Guaranteed. and since that is OUR DECISION to make, we can Trust today and stop trusting tomorrow. but the Guarantee [[is ONLY]] based upon if we continue to TRUST in God!
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In total agreement ZNP. Our part is to hear and do. Not just hear. " That in turn requires maintaining the fellowship with all saints and being reconciled with everyone who is offended with you." I assume you are referring to "When you bring your gift to the altar and there remember that your brother has ought against you first be reconciled to your brother and then come and offer your gift". I do the best I can but sometimes you just get unfriended and they live overseas or stateside and are offended when we are the ones that should be offended. One of the more difficult sayings of Jesus in complex circumstances, when the offended is in need of repentance for example. In which case , I might just let them go their way. Thanks for sharing
The Lord already paid the price to forgive ALL debts.
But only believers receive this forgiveness.
This receiving CAUSES something in the believer. If I can be forgiven of all my sin, even the really BAD stuff, then surely I can forgive small trespasses against myself.
If I don't forgive these small trespasses then the Love of the Father isn't in me. I have an artificial, superflous, intellectual belief in the general forgiveness of sin but I have not taken the forgiveness of my sin PERSONALLY.
A SAVED person is changed from the inside. Starting with the Heart. A Heart that is forgiven, FORGIVES. A Heart that is Loved, LOVES. A person that doesn't TRULY believe he is forgiven DOESN'T forgive. A person who doesn't TRULY believe he is loved DOESN'T Love.
If the Lord wanted to contradict His Word in John 10:26-29 He wouldn't use "what if" scenarios. He would be direct. As He was direct in John 10.
But only believers receive this forgiveness.
This receiving CAUSES something in the believer. If I can be forgiven of all my sin, even the really BAD stuff, then surely I can forgive small trespasses against myself.
If I don't forgive these small trespasses then the Love of the Father isn't in me. I have an artificial, superflous, intellectual belief in the general forgiveness of sin but I have not taken the forgiveness of my sin PERSONALLY.
A SAVED person is changed from the inside. Starting with the Heart. A Heart that is forgiven, FORGIVES. A Heart that is Loved, LOVES. A person that doesn't TRULY believe he is forgiven DOESN'T forgive. A person who doesn't TRULY believe he is loved DOESN'T Love.
If the Lord wanted to contradict His Word in John 10:26-29 He wouldn't use "what if" scenarios. He would be direct. As He was direct in John 10.
You don't have a choice in what you trust.
Trust comes with experience. Once you experience what is trustworthy you CAN'T just stop trusting it. It's already proven.
Try it. Try not trusting something that you absolutely trust in. Like gravity. Like objects falling to the earth. Try not trusting in that. Seems stupid, right?
Trust comes with experience. Once you experience what is trustworthy you CAN'T just stop trusting it. It's already proven.
Try it. Try not trusting something that you absolutely trust in. Like gravity. Like objects falling to the earth. Try not trusting in that. Seems stupid, right?
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