Is faith a work?

[Cameron143]

Biblical faith is a complete faith and not just a matter of the heart. When they heard this...the intellect...they were pricked in the heart...the heart...they said...what shall we do?...the will.
The total man is engaged in Godly faith.
This is incidentally why there are so many false professions of faith. A motivating speaker can engage a man's intellect and affect his will but God alone can engage a man or woman's heart.

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

I'm not trying to put labor on you, I'm asking because I don't understand. It's just a Bible discussion, but you're free to not discuss if you feel like it's labor.

We can discuss what I have posted. That doesnt mean I will jump and start explaining everything you want me to explain. The things I have already explained you fail to understand.

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

ROM 10:10 says man believes from his heart. So that's where faith comes from. Where does your trust in anything come from?


Eph 2:8 says that salvation is a gift from God.


But Calvinists twist the idea into the action of believing comes from God.


Depends on what is meant by "faith".


Calvinism believes that unregenerate man cannot believe the gospel, so God has to regenerate the man in order for man to believe. That is taught nowhere in the Bible.

Since you believe a unregenerate man can believe the gospel and get saved as a result of it, you believe and promote salvation by works, by what the unsaved, unregenerate man does. You see believing is a mental activity with the heart, mind will and affections. The bible is against salvation by works of man.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Since you believe a unregenerate man can believe the gospel and get saved as a result of it, you believe and promote salvation by works, by what the unsaved, unregenerate man does. You see believing is a mental activity with the heart, mind will and affections. The bible is against salvation by works of man.

this is nonsensical

it is the work of God that we believe

we are saved by grace through faith

we are not saved apart from faith.. we are still dead in our sin.. we must be justified before we can be made alive

we were made alive while dead in sin, when we believed, not before.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Biblical faith is a complete faith and not just a matter of the heart. When they heard this...the intellect...they were pricked in the heart...the heart...they said...what shall we do?...the will.
The total man is engaged in Godly faith.
This is incidentally why there are so many false professions of faith. A motivating speaker can engage a man's intellect and affect his will but God alone can engage a man or woman's heart.

amen,, thats why there are 4 examples given by christ of how we recieve the word.

Of the 4. only one was rotted in Christ, and produced fruit. the rest were never rooted. so the word faded away..

 

[Runningman]

We can discuss what I have posted. That doesnt mean I will jump and start explaining everything you want me to explain. The things I have already explained you fail to understand.

Okay then I'll stick with grace is accessed by having faith first like the Bible shows. You're interpreting Acts 18:27 wrong.

 

[WillB]

ROM 10:10 says man believes from his heart. So that's where faith comes from. Where does your trust in anything come from?


Eph 2:8 says that salvation is a gift from God.


But Calvinists twist the idea into the action of believing comes from God.


Depends on what is meant by "faith".


Calvinism believes that unregenerate man cannot believe the gospel, so God has to regenerate the man in order for man to believe. That is taught nowhere in the Bible.

WillB said:
FreeGrace2 said:
Eph 2:8 gives the answer to that excellent question. We are saved by grace through faith.

Our faith is the means of salvation, and that by grace. Faith precedes salvation.

WillB said:
Will: Thanks for your response - appreciated.
FreeGrace2: You are welcome.

WB: So, faith comes first followed by salvation, right?

From where, or from whom, does faith come? Is faith something that a fallen corrupt sinner can work out intellectually entirely on his own?

FreeGrace2: ROM 10:10 says man believes from his heart. So that's where faith comes from.

Where does your trust in anything come from?

WB: My faith (in the promises yet future of Jesus Christ is based on Biblical truths) is a gift from God.

Or is faith a gift from God?
FreeGrace2 :Eph 2:8 says that salvation is a gift from God.

FreeGrace2: As a noun, "faith" is what is believed. ie: my faith. So in that use, yes, God gives the faith, since what is believed is what is in the Bible.

The Bible is God's Word, and God has given mankind His Word. Those who believe what the Bible says has that faith.

WB: Okay. So we both believe based on Scripture that faith is a gift from God.
FreeGrace: But Calvinists twist the idea into the action of believing comes from God.

WB: You equate faith with believing, do you not? If you see a distinction please explain, ok?

WB: You have agreed that faith is a gift of God, right?
FreeGrace”: Depends on what is meant by "faith".

WB: I gave you a precise definition in that faith and believing are synonymous in connection with God.

And you have indicated that faith and believing are the same thing. If you have a different view please do explain?

Calvin says that faith is the gift of God, right? So, in what way is Calvin false and muddying the water on the issue?

FreeGrace2: Calvinism believes that unregenerate man cannot believe the gospel, so God has to regenerate the man in order for man to believe. That is taught nowhere in the Bible.

WB: Prior to you being regenerated i.e. born again did you have faith in the promises yet future of Jesus Christ? IF you did do please explain how an unregenerate man can have faith?

Please show me where in Scripture it says that an unregenerate i.e. spiritually dead man can believe what God has to say?

 

[awelight]

Yeah I am aware of those scriptures, yet they do nothing against the fact that them who believe, believe because of Grace Acts 18:27
27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

Grace here is the New Birth of the Spirit

Keep up the Good Fight. For there are many detractors.

Sadly, what is happening in this thread, are individuals who are trying to use one verse of Scripture, against another verse of Scripture, without looking at the whole of the context. Example, Romans 10:10 does not refute anything, you have stated. It must be understood in the light of the context that came before. Romans 9, is the great Election chapter. Roman's 10, Paul is explaining that Israel did not obey and believe what was proclaimed because it was a "heart" issue. They still possessed that stubborn heart of stone. Nothing "good" can come from the natural heart. God must change it before anything good can come from it. (See: Eze. 11:9 and 36:26)

Luke 8:15 But that in the good ground (Or prepared ground. Soil that has been made ready to seed. For no farmer ever plants seed on unprepared ground. Therefore, this speaks of Regeneration.) are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. (The fruit of Regeneration.).

The word "heart" is used in the KJV 833 times. It is quite a study. Perhaps the greatest verse, for rejoicing, in Romans 10 is:

Rom 10:20 But Esaias is very bold, and says, I was found of them that sought me not; I was made manifest unto them that asked not after me. (Which agrees with Rom. 3:11)

In acts 18:27 - "..had believed through grace." Two things should be noted here in the Greek text.

1.) The Greek word translated "had believed", is a Perfect Active Participial Verb. The Perfect tense, whenever it is encountered, should be taken note of. The Perfect does not appear in the English language. The Perfect tense means: That the action of the verb, took place in the past and has continuing results. So, in this verse, it means: That they "had believed and continue to stand firmly in their believing.

2.) The Greek preposition - Dia - translated "through" can be translated as: "through", "by" or "because of". It depends on the "case" of it's object. In this verse: It is either, the accusative of means: "had believed through (the means) of grace.", and we know that "Grace", is a gift of God. Or, it is the accusative of cause: "had believed because of grace." There is some debate over this. I take it to be the later because the translators did not translate the "Definite Article" that proceeds the word "grace" - which is in the Greek text. So, grace is not common grace but THE GRACE. Giving us this understanding of the translation: "..had believed and stand firm in their believing because of The Grace of God."

Thought you might enjoy and appreciate this.
God go with you and keep you.

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

everlasting grace

this is nonsensical

It makes good sense

it is the work of God that we believe

My point exactly, thats different from saying that a unregenerate person believes. If its Gods work in a person, thats called regeneration, and the effectual call

we are saved by grace through faith

Yes all of which is the Gift of Gods Grace

we are not saved apart from faith..

Right Faith accompanies Salvation by Grace

we are still dead in our sin..

Correct until God saves us by regeneration

we must be justified before we can be made alive

Correct. Thats done by Christs death

we were made alive while dead in sin, when we believed, not before.

Error, you must be made alive in order to believe, believing is the fruit of Spiritual life regeneration. Dead people cant believe, they dead duh

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

Okay then I'll stick with grace is accessed by having faith first like the Bible shows. You're interpreting Acts 18:27 wrong.

Oh no, they believed because of Grace Acts 18:27

27 And when he was disposed to pass into Achaia, the brethren wrote, exhorting the disciples to receive him: who, when he was come, helped them much which had believed through grace:

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

awelight

Sadly, what is happening in this thread, are individuals who are trying to use one verse of Scripture, against another verse of Scripture, without looking at the whole of the context. Example, Romans 10:10 does not refute anything, you have stated. It must be understood in the light of the context that came before. Romans 9, is the great Election chapter. Roman's 10, Paul is explaining that Israel did not obey and believe what was proclaimed because it was a "heart" issue. They still possessed that stubborn heart of stone. Nothing "good" can come from the natural heart. God must change it before anything good can come from it. (See: Eze. 11:9 and 36:26)

Yes Rom 10:10 is speaking about the New Heart from regeneration, God in the New Covenant gives us a new haert to believe Ezk 36:26

A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

So we believe because of Grace, the Grace from the New Heart from regeneration

Luke 8:15 But that in the good ground (

Or prepared ground. Soil that has been made ready to seed. For no farmer ever plants seed on unprepared ground. Therefore, this speaks of Regeneration.) are they, which in an honest and good heart, having heard the word, keep it, and bring forth fruit with patience. (The fruit of Regeneration.).

The word "heart" is used in the KJV 833 times. It is quite a study. Perhaps the greatest verse, for rejoicing, in Romans 10 is:

Yes the Good ground is is the good heart given in regeneration, and its the heart that receives the word and understands it Matt 13:23

23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.

That heart is the only ones said to hear and understand the word, because he spiritually discerned it by the Spirit 1 Cor 2:14

In acts 18:27 - "..had believed through grace." Two things should be noted here in the Greek text.

1.) The Greek word translated "had believed", is a Perfect Active Participial Verb. The Perfect tense, whenever it is encountered, should be taken note of. The Perfect does not appear in the English language. The Perfect tense means: That the action of the verb, took place in the past and has continuing results. So, in this verse, it means: That they "had believed and continue to stand firmly in their believing.

Agreed

2.) The Greek preposition - Dia - translated "through" can be translated as: "through", "by" or "because of". It depends on the "case" of it's object. In this verse: It is either, the accusative of means: "had believed through (the means) of grace.", and we know that "Grace", is a gift of God. Or, it is the accusative of cause: "had believed because of grace." There is some debate over this. I take it to be the later because the translators did not translate the "Definite Article" that proceeds the word "grace" - which is in the Greek text. So, grace is not common grace but THE GRACE. Giving us this understanding of the translation: "..had believed and stand firm in their believing because of The Grace of God."

Agreed and thanks for the break down of the greek. Im no greek scholar but i tend to learn from scholars like yourself.

I know the grace is causative because after we are given the New Heart, its written we will be caused to keep Gods statues , and judgments, which to believe in Christ is one Ezk 36:26-27

26 A new heart [Good Ground] also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

 

[GRACE_ambassador]

Im no greek scholar

Precious friend, A Very Warm Welcome To Chat.

Thanks Be Unto God For Preserving His Truth To
us in our own language, eh?

Please Be Very RICHLY Encouraged And Edified In
The LORD JESUS CHRIST, And His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided (+ I and II).

Grace, Peace, And JOY!...

 

[FreeGrace2]

Since you believe a unregenerate man can believe the gospel and get saved as a result of it, you believe and promote salvation by works

Pure nonsense. The Bible is clear that it is those who believe who are saved. The action of believing comes from the person, not from God.

But, prove your claim with clear verses that say what you claim.

, by what the unsaved, unregenerate man does. You see believing is a mental activity with the heart, mind will and affections. The bible is against salvation by works of man.

Believing the gospel promise is a response to God. How is that a work?

 

[FreeGrace2]

Please show me where in Scripture it says that an unregenerate i.e. spiritually dead man can believe what God has to say?

Every verse that evangelizes someone is proof.

Who is the gospel presented to anyway? Unregenerates. Why do it if they can't respond? That would make no sense. And Calvinists just do not understand that.

 

[WillB]

Every verse that evangelizes someone is proof.

Who is the gospel presented to anyway? Unregenerates. Why do it if they can't respond? That would make no sense. And Calvinists just do not understand that.

WB: You seem to be missing the point.

The point at issue which you raised is about faith and salvation in which you claim that faith precedes salvation.

When a Christian evangelizes to an unregenerate person there are two possible outcomes.

First, the unregenerate person can reject the message - and remain unregenerate i.e. spiritually dead.

Or Second, the unregenerate person can believe the content of the message and have faith in Jesus Christ in which case he is no longer spiritually dead ....he's been made alive i.e. born again - and is saved which is the consequence of the free gift of faith by God to that person.

 

[awelight]

WB: You seem to be missing the point.

The point at issue which you raised is about faith and salvation in which you claim that faith precedes salvation.

When a Christian evangelizes to an unregenerate person there are two possible outcomes.

First, the unregenerate person can reject the message - and remain unregenerate i.e. spiritually dead.

Or Second, the unregenerate person can believe the content of the message and have faith in Jesus Christ in which case he is no longer spiritually dead ....he's been made alive i.e. born again - and is saved which is the consequence of the free gift of faith by God to that person.

The last part of your post, sounds like you are promoting "Gospel Regeneration". Do you not believe that it is the Holy Spirit who Regenerates?

 

[awelight]

Every verse that evangelizes someone is proof.

Who is the gospel presented to anyway? Unregenerates. Why do it if they can't respond? That would make no sense. And Calvinists just do not understand that.

The Gospel is presented to all... because we cannot tell who are the Elect by any visible appearance or sign. In this same way, you cannot tell who has been Regenerated and who has not. Therefore, you cannot know who is able to respond and who cannot. Seems pretty simple to me.

 

[FreeGrace2]

FreeGrace2 said:
Every verse that evangelizes someone is proof.

Who is the gospel presented to anyway? Unregenerates. Why do it if they can't respond? That would make no sense. And Calvinists just do not understand that.

WB: You seem to be missing the point.

The point at issue which you raised is about faith and salvation in which you claim that faith precedes salvation.

The Bible teaches that faith precedes salvation.

Eph 2:5 is the verse that equates "being made alive" or regeneration, with being saved. They are synonymous.

Then, in v.8 Paul wrote that we are saved by grace THROUGH faith. That word proves that faith precedes salvation.

When a Christian evangelizes to an unregenerate person there are two possible outcomes.

Of course.

First, the unregenerate person can reject the message - and remain unregenerate i.e. spiritually dead.

Or Second, the unregenerate person can believe the content of the message and have faith in Jesus Christ in which case he is no longer spiritually dead ....he's been made alive i.e. born again - and is saved which is the consequence of the free gift of faith by God to that person.

Then what's the argument here? I'm with you all the way. It is WHEN a person believes the gospel promise that they are saved AND born again.

God doesn't give spiritual birth to unbelievers. Calvinists don't believe that. And they don't have any verse that supports their claim.

 

[FreeGrace2]

The Gospel is presented to all... because we cannot tell who are the Elect by any visible appearance or sign.

This is irrelevant. In Eph 1:4, the "elect" are believers. The word "us" is clearly defined in v.19.

In this same way, you cannot tell who has been Regenerated and who has not.

Also irrelevant. Not our job. Our job is to tell others that Christ died for them and gives the gift of eternal life to anyone who trusts in Him for salvation.

However, Calvinists believe that there are those who God has simply passed over and didn't "elect" and won't ever be saved. In fact, most Calvinists go to the extreme and claim that Christ didn't even die for those poor unfortunate folk.

So telling someone that Christ died for them would be a LIE if Calvinism were true and you were trying to evangelize one of those poor unfortunate folk who Christ didn't bother to die for.

Therefore, you cannot know who is able to respond and who cannot. Seems pretty simple to me.

All your points are irrelevant. It doesn't matter. The point of the Bible is that Christ died for everyone, so we can confidently tell EVERYONE that Christ died for THEM and will give eternal life to anyone who trusts in Him for salvation.

That is the only point.

 

[savedbysovereigngrace99]

fg2

Pure nonsense. The Bible is clear that it is those who believe who are saved. The action of believing comes from the person, not from God.

But, prove your claim with clear verses that say what you claim.

Oh no, you are saying faith/believing which is involved in Salvation is a activity of the flesh, of the unregenerate person

Believing the gospel promise is a response to God. How is that a work?

A response, believing, is an act of the mind and the heart. Paul is describing a work of the heart here Rom 10:9

9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

The word believe here is in the active voice which means:

Represents the subject as the doer or performer of the action. e.g., in the sentence, "Jesus returned to Capernaum" Jesus performs the action.

So for you to perform a action of believing, which results in your salvation, that's Salvation by your works, your action.