Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked
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I think that's a strange position to take. Because what we're saying is taken from the Bible.
Wait, I just thought of this. Are you not Christian? Is this site open to allow non-Christians to debate the Bible too?
Is that why you are opposed to the eternal salvation teaching of Christ? And don't realize your argument above that you attribute to wrong thinking are actually all parts of Bible scripture?
Wait, I just thought of this. Are you not Christian? Is this site open to allow non-Christians to debate the Bible too?
Is that why you are opposed to the eternal salvation teaching of Christ? And don't realize your argument above that you attribute to wrong thinking are actually all parts of Bible scripture?
Read my post, I am not opposed to this. That is a very lame way to respond. It is called a straw man argument, create a straw man that you can defeat and then attack the straw man. I do believe that once you receive Christ that can never be taken away from you. I also believe that many Christians will suffer loss ("wait that is in the Bible, why are you opposed to that, does that mean you aren't a Christian?")
There are two groups that teach OSAS
1. You do have the genuine churches with real Christians. Places like Reformed Congregation Church. These places have been losing members at a very steady rate so that the number of registered members today is paltry. Almost insignificant from the point of view of the nation or particularly if we look globally. I agree with their teaching for the most part but think they have made serious errors that are tangential to this doctrine.
the other group
2. FreeMason churches. This is my own special term for these mega churches with a powerful online presence, giant auditorium style meeting hall, big band, and dominated by the worship service (singing hymns, not traditional ones, new ones. Many of these hymns will not ever use the name of Jesus). They don't announce they are FreeMason churches but you know they are because of the money they have to really make big beautiful meeting halls and have a really powerful, professional TV and Music production.
These churches are growing. They are open to the LGBTQ community being in leadership and will say verses that refer to sexual sins in the Bible are out of date. There are many verses in the Bible they ignore or at the very least deemphasize. They will never talk about the rapture. The teaching is Bible light. They teach the prosperity gospel which flies in the face of common sense.
To me this is where the battle is, to help those who have been deceived by false teachers.
1. You do have the genuine churches with real Christians. Places like Reformed Congregation Church. These places have been losing members at a very steady rate so that the number of registered members today is paltry. Almost insignificant from the point of view of the nation or particularly if we look globally. I agree with their teaching for the most part but think they have made serious errors that are tangential to this doctrine.
the other group
2. FreeMason churches. This is my own special term for these mega churches with a powerful online presence, giant auditorium style meeting hall, big band, and dominated by the worship service (singing hymns, not traditional ones, new ones. Many of these hymns will not ever use the name of Jesus). They don't announce they are FreeMason churches but you know they are because of the money they have to really make big beautiful meeting halls and have a really powerful, professional TV and Music production.
These churches are growing. They are open to the LGBTQ community being in leadership and will say verses that refer to sexual sins in the Bible are out of date. There are many verses in the Bible they ignore or at the very least deemphasize. They will never talk about the rapture. The teaching is Bible light. They teach the prosperity gospel which flies in the face of common sense.
To me this is where the battle is, to help those who have been deceived by false teachers.
Perhaps confirmation bias?
That's certainly not what anyone is saying precisely. If faith is a gift then the whole salvation process is by election from start to finish and we just need to sit back, relax, and coast regardless of whether we do God's will, going forward, or not, because God is doing everything for us; even making us believe. While He did many things, what I see is He is asking for our continued faith/belief (two sides of the same coin.)
My personal motivation in this thread is to just show what the Bible says. I'm digging deep and learning things I never knew before until this very day. I can now prove that that Bible requires continual belief. I came into this thread knowing only that faith is required.
If I may, then, who produced your saving faith in the gospel? Did you decide to believe it, trust it, and follow it or was it instilled in you by God? Maybe a mixture of both?
That's certainly not what anyone is saying precisely. If faith is a gift then the whole salvation process is by election from start to finish and we just need to sit back, relax, and coast regardless of whether we do God's will, going forward, or not, because God is doing everything for us; even making us believe. While He did many things, what I see is He is asking for our continued faith/belief (two sides of the same coin.)
My personal motivation in this thread is to just show what the Bible says. I'm digging deep and learning things I never knew before until this very day. I can now prove that that Bible requires continual belief. I came into this thread knowing only that faith is required.
If I may, then, who produced your saving faith in the gospel? Did you decide to believe it, trust it, and follow it or was it instilled in you by God? Maybe a mixture of both?
Would @Magenta agree her view is confirmation bias? Or are we reading people who imply we are not secure in our salvation but have to strive to keep it?
What's it termed if people insist that's true and when it's pointed out as contrary to the very meaning of God's free eternal gift of salvation deny they said it?
God tells us the things of God are foolishness to the natural mind. Only the spirit of God can change our understanding of those things of God.
Jesus tells us no one can come to him unless God brings them to him.
There is Ephesians 1 too.
What's it termed if people insist that's true and when it's pointed out as contrary to the very meaning of God's free eternal gift of salvation deny they said it?
God tells us the things of God are foolishness to the natural mind. Only the spirit of God can change our understanding of those things of God.
Jesus tells us no one can come to him unless God brings them to him.
There is Ephesians 1 too.
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Which one is the big problem?
Jesus spoke of the camel and the gnat. They strain out the gnat and swallow the camel.
So my question is which of these two is the camel and which is the gnat?
A million people who think they are saved because they were told repeat this prayer after me and you will be eternally saved, and yet they live in sin, have no fellowship with God and will end up in hell.
or
A Christian who is struggling every day. They are praying, they are reading the word, they are in fellowship with other Christians, and yet they wonder if they are really saved.
The Lord said that doing both jobs is good, straining out the gnat and straining out the camel. This is not a either or question, simply which is the big problem and which is the small problem?
Jesus spoke of the camel and the gnat. They strain out the gnat and swallow the camel.
So my question is which of these two is the camel and which is the gnat?
A million people who think they are saved because they were told repeat this prayer after me and you will be eternally saved, and yet they live in sin, have no fellowship with God and will end up in hell.
or
A Christian who is struggling every day. They are praying, they are reading the word, they are in fellowship with other Christians, and yet they wonder if they are really saved.
The Lord said that doing both jobs is good, straining out the gnat and straining out the camel. This is not a either or question, simply which is the big problem and which is the small problem?
I already did. Here it is again.
"Eternal Life refers to the Person of the Holy Spirit dwelling in you. Recall those verses in 1 Jn where it says no murderer has Eternal Life abiding in him, meaning the Holy Spirit abiding in him. The same Apostle says, that just as we have passed from death to life, by believing in Jesus Christ, we can pass from life to death by committing sins unto death like adultery, murder, apostasy etc. Recall that when David sinned by adultery/murder, he prayed: "Cast me not away from Your presence; take not Your Holy Spirit from me." by which inspired words, the Holy Ghost Himself shows us that it is possible.
You have to understand the context of those 2 verses. In the first verse, the Lord is preaching the Gospel to unbelieving Jews. He tells them that not by keeping the law, etc, but rather by believing in Him, i.e. by faith, they can be justified.
The second verse is in a different context. The Lord sees the Pharisees are refusing to believe He is God. They want to prevent His disciples from believing that too. And so, He says, His Sheep will hear His Voice, that He knows them, and they follow Him. And to such as these He gives TWO GIFTS, not just one, the Holy Spirit, i.e. Justification, and the Gift of Never Perishing, i.e. Final Perseverance in Grace. It is those who receive these two gifts who are predestined not only to grace (justification) but also to final glory in Heaven (salvation). Also, your conflating the two is ultimately a non sequitur.
Take a secular example. Someone gives to group A a flight ticket as a gift. And to group B both a flight ticket and a first class ticket. Thus it therefore follow that all who have a flight ticket also fly first class? No, not at all. Likewise, it doesn't follow that all who receive eternal life (the Holy Spirit, by Grace through Faith, in Justification) also never perish. They alone never perish who do those 3 things mentioned by the Lord there. 2 Pet 1:5-11 confirms that when it says those who do things like e.g. add love, virtue, self-control etc to faith will never stumble, and in this way will confirm their election."
Again, all you have to do is read, Heb 10 in full, especially: "39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." to know that this still happens in the NT. In fact, the writer says that if, after being sanctified by the Blood of Christ, we return to death, that is worse than in the OT, and deserves greater punishment: "29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" So if even in the OT Kings like David, Saul and Solomon lost the Holy Spirit when they sinned gravely, it follows that the same is possible today. The same conclusion follows from 2 Pet 2:20-22 where it says apostates are worse than those who have never known Christ. But those who have never known Christ are lost. Hence, also it follows that apostates are also lost, and in addition will receive greater punishment in hell than those who never Christ, unless they repent of their apostasy before death, and have this sin too washed away in the Blood of Jesus, as per 1 Jn 1:8-10.
I would suggest reading the Church Father's commentary on the Scriptures. John Calvin said he got his OSAS opinion from St. Augustine - allegedly that Salvation = Justification. But St. Augustine didn't teach that. He taught: Justification + Perseverance = Salvation, as does the whole Holy Bible, both Old and New Testaments, Lord Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, John etc.
Chapter 9.— When Perseverance is Granted to a Person, He Cannot But Persevere.
Now, moreover, when the saints say, Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, Matthew 6:13 what do they pray for but that they may persevere in holiness? For, assuredly, when that gift of God is granted to them — which is sufficiently plainly shown to be God's gift, since it is asked of Him — that gift of God, then, being granted to them that they may not be led into temptation, none of the saints fails to keep his perseverance in holiness even to the end. For there is not any one who ceases to persevere in the Christian purpose unless he is first of all led into temptation. If, therefore, it be granted to him according to his prayer that he may not be led, certainly by the gift of God he persists in that sanctification which by the gift of God he has received [and therefore receives final salvation/goes to Heaven, by dying having the Holy Spirit].
Taken from: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htm
God Bless.
"Eternal Life refers to the Person of the Holy Spirit dwelling in you. Recall those verses in 1 Jn where it says no murderer has Eternal Life abiding in him, meaning the Holy Spirit abiding in him. The same Apostle says, that just as we have passed from death to life, by believing in Jesus Christ, we can pass from life to death by committing sins unto death like adultery, murder, apostasy etc. Recall that when David sinned by adultery/murder, he prayed: "Cast me not away from Your presence; take not Your Holy Spirit from me." by which inspired words, the Holy Ghost Himself shows us that it is possible.
You have to understand the context of those 2 verses. In the first verse, the Lord is preaching the Gospel to unbelieving Jews. He tells them that not by keeping the law, etc, but rather by believing in Him, i.e. by faith, they can be justified.
The second verse is in a different context. The Lord sees the Pharisees are refusing to believe He is God. They want to prevent His disciples from believing that too. And so, He says, His Sheep will hear His Voice, that He knows them, and they follow Him. And to such as these He gives TWO GIFTS, not just one, the Holy Spirit, i.e. Justification, and the Gift of Never Perishing, i.e. Final Perseverance in Grace. It is those who receive these two gifts who are predestined not only to grace (justification) but also to final glory in Heaven (salvation). Also, your conflating the two is ultimately a non sequitur.
Take a secular example. Someone gives to group A a flight ticket as a gift. And to group B both a flight ticket and a first class ticket. Thus it therefore follow that all who have a flight ticket also fly first class? No, not at all. Likewise, it doesn't follow that all who receive eternal life (the Holy Spirit, by Grace through Faith, in Justification) also never perish. They alone never perish who do those 3 things mentioned by the Lord there. 2 Pet 1:5-11 confirms that when it says those who do things like e.g. add love, virtue, self-control etc to faith will never stumble, and in this way will confirm their election."
Again, all you have to do is read, Heb 10 in full, especially: "39 But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul." to know that this still happens in the NT. In fact, the writer says that if, after being sanctified by the Blood of Christ, we return to death, that is worse than in the OT, and deserves greater punishment: "29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?" So if even in the OT Kings like David, Saul and Solomon lost the Holy Spirit when they sinned gravely, it follows that the same is possible today. The same conclusion follows from 2 Pet 2:20-22 where it says apostates are worse than those who have never known Christ. But those who have never known Christ are lost. Hence, also it follows that apostates are also lost, and in addition will receive greater punishment in hell than those who never Christ, unless they repent of their apostasy before death, and have this sin too washed away in the Blood of Jesus, as per 1 Jn 1:8-10.
I would suggest reading the Church Father's commentary on the Scriptures. John Calvin said he got his OSAS opinion from St. Augustine - allegedly that Salvation = Justification. But St. Augustine didn't teach that. He taught: Justification + Perseverance = Salvation, as does the whole Holy Bible, both Old and New Testaments, Lord Jesus, Peter, Paul, James, John etc.
Chapter 9.— When Perseverance is Granted to a Person, He Cannot But Persevere.
Now, moreover, when the saints say, Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil, Matthew 6:13 what do they pray for but that they may persevere in holiness? For, assuredly, when that gift of God is granted to them — which is sufficiently plainly shown to be God's gift, since it is asked of Him — that gift of God, then, being granted to them that they may not be led into temptation, none of the saints fails to keep his perseverance in holiness even to the end. For there is not any one who ceases to persevere in the Christian purpose unless he is first of all led into temptation. If, therefore, it be granted to him according to his prayer that he may not be led, certainly by the gift of God he persists in that sanctification which by the gift of God he has received [and therefore receives final salvation/goes to Heaven, by dying having the Holy Spirit].
Taken from: https://www.newadvent.org/fathers/15122.htm
God Bless.
Under NO osas theory would anyone be saved solely on the fact they said a sinners prayer.
Not everyone who says to me lord lord.. You posted the verse yourself.. It takes more than just saying some prayer..
Why would I need to reconcile these verses?? No one recieved the HS SOLELY on the fact they merly belief and said a sinners prayer.
so your question is nonsensical and irrevelent
Your stuck on OSAS. you people are attacking a doctrine and not looking at the fact.. Stop it.. It is not helping your case.
A licentious person is not saved. they can say a sinners prayer 100 times, they are not saved., they have not re
get of OSAS and look to what Jesus promised. He said we HAVE eternal life.. If you HAVE eternal life. you can never be lost. otherwise you have CONDITIONAL life.
I have the seal of the spirit UNTIL the day of my ressurection. If I am sealed by the spirit UNTIL then. My salvation can not be lost because I am sealed. I can grieve the HS, and am warned not to. But I can not break the seal..
WHen are you going to stop trying to save yourself and look to God to save you? When are you going to repent, and become poor in spirit? I do not know. maybe you did and you went of kilter.. But the gospel you are teaching is a false gospel
Not everyone who says to me lord lord.. You posted the verse yourself.. It takes more than just saying some prayer..
Why would I need to reconcile these verses?? No one recieved the HS SOLELY on the fact they merly belief and said a sinners prayer.
so your question is nonsensical and irrevelent
Your stuck on OSAS. you people are attacking a doctrine and not looking at the fact.. Stop it.. It is not helping your case.
A licentious person is not saved. they can say a sinners prayer 100 times, they are not saved., they have not re
get of OSAS and look to what Jesus promised. He said we HAVE eternal life.. If you HAVE eternal life. you can never be lost. otherwise you have CONDITIONAL life.
I have the seal of the spirit UNTIL the day of my ressurection. If I am sealed by the spirit UNTIL then. My salvation can not be lost because I am sealed. I can grieve the HS, and am warned not to. But I can not break the seal..
WHen are you going to stop trying to save yourself and look to God to save you? When are you going to repent, and become poor in spirit? I do not know. maybe you did and you went of kilter.. But the gospel you are teaching is a false gospel
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