Is faith a work?

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Everlasting-Grace

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Dec 18, 2021
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Even your own words are nonsensical to you.

Think about this sentence that YOU wrote. Try to understand it.

Then see if the post you were responding to is "nonsensical".
it makes total sense. God worked in my life and through his work I became poor in spirit and entered the kingdom of God

What does not make sense is saying I was dead because of sin, but am made alive while still under sin so I can then have faith to have the penalty of sin removed.

the person on death row is in essence dead. He is not made alive (his death sentence removed) until the penalty of sin is either applied through redemption. or through a retrial and a reversal because he was found innocent

forgiveness of sin MUST come first.. otherwise the person is still dead.
 
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That's what I said. Didn't you read my post before your reply?

"FreeGrace2 said:
The Bible teaches that God is pleased to save those who believe, and the recipients of His wrath are stictly because they didn't believe."

Calvinists think that God is pleased to unconditionally save some and regenerates them so that they will believe. That is totally foreign to Scripture. But share any verse that you think teaches that. Or correct my error if Calvinists don't think what I just said they think.
No matter how you contend against it, God didnt chose everyone for Salvation.
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,843
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You or I have no right to tell anyone Christ died for them. Where did any of the Apostles in the book of Acts tell anyone Christ died for them ? Thats an invention of man.
We have no right?

Jesus said he died for the world.. that is everyone.. we have no right to tell anyone jesus did not or may not have died for them
 

Everlasting-Grace

Well-known member
Dec 18, 2021
5,843
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grandpa



Exactly, well stated
Faith is not a work.

If I am drowning and hopeless and I through faith in the one who was sent to rescue me stop my work of trying to save myself and let them save me

I can not take credit (boast) for saving myself. nor did I earn my salvation.

the credit goes to the one who rescued me, I will boast in them. not myself.

not of works. lest anyone should boast..
 
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Why don't you believe Rom 4:4,5 where Paul EXPLAINED what "work" is in the Bible. It is anything that creates an obligation by the person doing the work to the one who PAYS for the work. Do you understand what that means? Is God paying anyone for believing in His Son? NO. How do I know that? Because salvation (Eph 2:8) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) are described as gifts.

Now, if your employer always called your paycheck (from him to you) a "gift", I could see your total confusion. But I KNOW that your employer NEVER EVER called your paycheck a gift to you. So you have NO REASON to think a gift is a payment for anything.


And you don't seem to understand why believers are called righteous. It started with Abraham, actually.

Gal 3:6 - So also Abraham “believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”

The believer's righteousness is CREDITED by God. Believers aren't intrinsically righteous. It is Christ's righteousness that is imputed to the believer in Christ.


Calvinists are a hoot. Making up such stuff.

First you made up this whopper: If it is ANYTHING that YOU have to generate inside YOURSELF in order to cause God to act, then its a work

Then you made up this whopper: if YOU must generate faith inside yourself BEFORE Christ can work His Work then you switched the roles around.

Calvinists seem to have NO CLUE about what belief is. It is simply TRUST. How do you trust in anything? Can you answer that?

Regardless of your answer, trusting is thinking. Do you "generate" your own thoughts, or does someone else "generate" them for you?

That is how silly your notions are.

God created humanity with a conscience with which to THINK. Do you "generate" thoughts, as if that's a lot of work? How many of your "generated thoughts" do you get paid for anyway? I'll bet NONE of them.

People don't get paid for having thoughts. That is rididulous. Smart people are hired NOT for thinking thoughts, but applying them to BENEFIT the one doing the paying.

For example, I could hire a genius to guide me into buying the best and most productive stocks. The goal, of course, would be to made a ton of money based on what the genius comes up with.

But, if this genius only thinks the right thoughts, but doesn't share them with me, so that I can BENEFIT from his genius, then what is the point of paying that genius in the first place??

The key is BENEFIT. How does God BENEFIT from a person who simply believes His promise of salvation through His Son? Can you answer that?


No, that is wrong. God has declared me righteous. My act of believing doesn't "make me righteous".


You couldn't be more wrong.

The whole plan of salvation is from God. So that makes Him the first cause of salvation. iow, it is His plan. Not yours, not mine.

So your whole thinking is totally wrong on all of this, as I have just pointed out.

Regarding the concept of OBLIGATION, it is God who has OBLIGATED Himself. When a person responds to the gospel promise by believing the promise, God has OBLIGATED Himself to save that person.

Can you understand this? It isn't Calvinism, it is the Bible.
Since you make faith/believing actions performed by the unregenerate resulting in their eternal salvation, thats salvation by works, by reward, for performing your action. Thats totally 100% against Grace.
 
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Faith is not a work.

If I am drowning and hopeless and I through faith in the one who was sent to rescue me stop my work of trying to save myself and let them save me

I can not take credit (boast) for saving myself. nor did I earn my salvation.

the credit goes to the one who rescued me, I will boast in them. not myself.

not of works. lest anyone should boast..
Yes believing is a work, now its either mans work, or Gods work of regenerating grace. Take your pick !
 
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We have no right?

Jesus said he died for the world.. that is everyone.. we have no right to tell anyone jesus did not or may not have died for them
You or I havent a right to tell any individual that Christ died for them. Wonder if they be not of His Lost Sheep, and didnt die for them ? Then you lied to them and become a false witness. Now you can tell a person that Christ died for His Sheep, or even that He died for sinners, but we dont know exactly who those sinners are, but He does.
 
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Faith is not a work.

If I am drowning and hopeless and I through faith in the one who was sent to rescue me stop my work of trying to save myself and let them save me

I can not take credit (boast) for saving myself. nor did I earn my salvation.

the credit goes to the one who rescued me, I will boast in them. not myself.

not of works. lest anyone should boast..
Your example is bogus, since the ones who are saved, were dead , already drowned to death. They cant participate in their conversion until after they have been made alive.
 
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You or I have no right to tell anyone Christ died for them.
I have EVERY right to say that. Because the Bible says He did die for everyone. Regardless of what Calvinists claim.

Where did any of the Apostles in the book of Acts tell anyone Christ died for them ? Thats an invention of man.
Are you stuck on 1 book of the Bible?

Scripture teaches unlimited atonement. Unlimited atonement is incompatible with Reformed theology’s definition of election. It is impossible for the atoning Work of Christ to be only for the elect.

NOTE: pas in the Greek means each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

*** Mark 16:15: preach the Gospel to every creature. If Calvin was right, this makes no sense.

*** John 6:40 For this is the will of the Father, that everyone (pas) who beholds and believes on the Son may have eternal life.

*** John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

*** John 1:7 He (John the Baptist) came for a witness, that he might bear witness of the Light (Christ), that all (pas) might believe through him.

*** John 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

*** John 3:16, 17 For God so loved the world, that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) …not to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

*** John 4:42 This One is indeed the Savior of the world.

John 17:21 that they may all be one, even as thou, Father, art in Me, and I in thee, that they also may be in Us: that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me.

*** John 20:31 but these have been written (in order) that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His Name. (goal of John’s Gospel)

*** Acts 17:27 God did this (created mankind) so that men would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. (see also Heb 11:6 regarding mankind having the ability to look for God, in contrast to point 1 of Calvinism)

*** Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now He commands all (pas) people everywhere to repent. See also 2 Pet 3:9

*** Rom 5:6 In due time, when we were without strength, Christ died for the ungodly (that’s every human), not just the “elect” per point 3 of Calvinism. Consider Rom 3:23 ‘for ALL have sinned, and come short’

*** Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass (Adam’s Fall) was condemnation for all (pas) men, so also the result of one act of righteousness (Cross) was justification that brings life for all (pas) men. [Adam’s fall affects the entire human race, and Christ’s atonement also affects the entire human race]

*** Rom 11:32 For God has bound all (pas) men over to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all (pas). Cf: Rom 3:23, 6:23, Rom 5:6,8 All humans are sinful and Christ died for all of them.

*** Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." In 5 point Calvinism, elect aren’t really “lost” since they were elected, so just what does this verse mean? Obviously, the entire human race is lost and is in need of a Savior. So the Son of Man came to seek and save the entire human race.

*** 2 Cor 5:14,15 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And He died for all (pas), that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for Him who died for them and was raised again.

*** 2 Cor 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

*** Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone (pas).

*** Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all (pas) men.

1 Tim 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-of whom I am the worst. See Rom 3:23, 6:23 salvation is potential for all humanity!

*** 1 Tim 2:3,4 This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all (pas) men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (Christ-Jn 14:6, Jn 8:32, 12:32) Note the potential: Christ wants all men to be saved. The concept of limited atonement just doesn’t fly in light of this verse.

*** 1 Tim 2:6 Who gave Himself as a ransom for all (pas) men, the testimony given in its proper time.

*** 1 Tim 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all (pas) men, and especially (malista) of those who believe.
Malista: chiefly, most of all, specially

*** 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, (has not predetermined that) but everyone (pas) to come to repentance.

*** 1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole (holos) world. Holos: all, all together, every whit, throughout, whole

Rev 22:17 Whosoever wishes, (let him) take the water of life freely. [eternal life is a free gift] and it is potential; in other words, man has free will to believe or reject God’s promise of eternal life through Christ.

*** 1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Cor 7:23: You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. [believers]

2 Pet 2:1: But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. [unbelievers]

The Greek word for “bought” is the same in both verses, ‘agorazo’

Notice exactly WHO has been bought by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Cor 7:23: You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. [believers]

2 Pet 2:1: But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. [unbelievers]

The Greek word for “bought” is the same in both verses, ‘agorazo’

Scripture is very clear: Jesus Christ died for everyone. Not just "some".
 
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FreeGrace2 said:
Rom 10:10 tells us where belief comes from; our hearts. But Calvinists don't believe that, and have made up quite a story about what they would prefer was true.

It's impossible to have a real discussion with Calvinists, given their wild imagination about what they think the Bible says.

Rom 4:4,5 proves that believing isn't a work. But you don't seem able to understand that.

Eph 2:8,9 teaches the same thing. But you still don't seem to understand that either.

Calvinists WRONGLY assume that unregenerate man cannot believe the gospel promise until they are regenerated, even though Calvinists cannot prove their assumption from Scripture.

So we aren't even on the same playing field. Or universe.
Its incredibly simple. But you don't WANT to understand it.
That is full of nonsense. You have been given truth and don't want to believe it.

Ezekiel 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
This is a description of the new birth. What do you think Zeke was saying?

Faith, that results in Salvation, is a gift of God. It comes from this New Heart that is ALSO a gift of God.
Now you're just making up more stuff. You DON'T have a verse that supports your claim and you know it. Not even Ezek 36:26 says anything close to what you claim.

John 15:5 I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.

What does this mean?

Since Jesus affirmed that the 11 were already saved, He COULDN'T have meant anything about how to get saved. The word "abiding" is about fellowship. iow, believers can bear fruit ONLY IF they are in fellowship with the Lord.


Fellowship = harmony. Believers out of fellowship are out of harmony with the Lord and cannot bear fruit. That is what Jesus was saying.

Fellowship is about the STATE of the relationship, just as harmony (or lack) is the state of a marriage.

John 6:29
Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.

It means you can't do that (the work of God) without Christ.
You just don't want to get this, do you. v.28 gives us their question; which was what they MUST DO to DO the work God requires.

Jesus' answer was about what God requires for eternal life; it is to believe. Believing is from the heart, per Rom 10:10.

Regeneration follows belief, as Eph 2:5 and 8 clearly teach.
 
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No matter how you contend against it, God didnt chose everyone for Salvation.
Why do you keep saying this silliness? I've NEVER said He did. So why are you making this up?

I did say that Christ died for everyone, because the Bible says it. However, His dying doesn't save anyone, though most believers have been very poorly taught and think His death is what saves us. No, it isn't. Show me the verse that teaches this.

Rather, it is God Himself who saves. And He is pleased to "save those who believe", per 1 Cor 1:21.

I strongly reject universalism as a heresy. So quit trying to put words in my mouth.
 
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I have EVERY right to say that. Because the Bible says He did die for everyone. Regardless of what Calvinists claim.


Are you stuck on 1 book of the Bible?

Scripture teaches unlimited atonement. Unlimited atonement is incompatible with Reformed theology’s definition of election. It is impossible for the atoning Work of Christ to be only for the elect.

NOTE: pas in the Greek means each, every, any, all, the whole, everyone, all things, everything

*** Mark 16:15: preach the Gospel to every creature. If Calvin was right, this makes no sense.

*** John 6:40 For this is the will of the Father, that everyone (pas) who beholds and believes on the Son may have eternal life.

*** John 12:32 But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

*** John 1:7 He (John the Baptist) came for a witness, that he might bear witness of the Light (Christ), that all (pas) might believe through him.

*** John 1:29 Behold the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

*** John 3:16, 17 For God so loved the world, that He gave His uniquely born Son, that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) …not to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

*** John 4:42 This One is indeed the Savior of the world.

John 17:21 that they may all be one, even as thou, Father, art in Me, and I in thee, that they also may be in Us: that the world may believe that Thou didst send Me.

*** John 20:31 but these have been written (in order) that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that believing you may have life in His Name. (goal of John’s Gospel)

*** Acts 17:27 God did this (created mankind) so that men would seek Him and perhaps reach out for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us. (see also Heb 11:6 regarding mankind having the ability to look for God, in contrast to point 1 of Calvinism)

*** Acts 17:30 In the past God overlooked such ignorance, but now He commands all (pas) people everywhere to repent. See also 2 Pet 3:9

*** Rom 5:6 In due time, when we were without strength, Christ died for the ungodly (that’s every human), not just the “elect” per point 3 of Calvinism. Consider Rom 3:23 ‘for ALL have sinned, and come short’

*** Rom 5:18 Consequently, just as the result of one trespass (Adam’s Fall) was condemnation for all (pas) men, so also the result of one act of righteousness (Cross) was justification that brings life for all (pas) men. [Adam’s fall affects the entire human race, and Christ’s atonement also affects the entire human race]

*** Rom 11:32 For God has bound all (pas) men over to disobedience, so that He may have mercy on them all (pas). Cf: Rom 3:23, 6:23, Rom 5:6,8 All humans are sinful and Christ died for all of them.

*** Luke 19:10 "For the Son of Man has come to seek and to save that which was lost." In 5 point Calvinism, elect aren’t really “lost” since they were elected, so just what does this verse mean? Obviously, the entire human race is lost and is in need of a Savior. So the Son of Man came to seek and save the entire human race.

*** 2 Cor 5:14,15 For Christ’s love compels us, because we are convinced that one died for all, and therefore all died. And He died for all (pas), that those who live should no longer live for themselves but for Him who died for them and was raised again.

*** 2 Cor 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to Himself in Christ, not counting men’s sins against them. And He has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

*** Heb 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone (pas).

*** Titus 2:11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all (pas) men.

1 Tim 1:15 Here is a trustworthy saying that deserves full acceptance: Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners-of whom I am the worst. See Rom 3:23, 6:23 salvation is potential for all humanity!

*** 1 Tim 2:3,4 This is good and pleases God our Savior, who wants all (pas) men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth (Christ-Jn 14:6, Jn 8:32, 12:32) Note the potential: Christ wants all men to be saved. The concept of limited atonement just doesn’t fly in light of this verse.

*** 1 Tim 2:6 Who gave Himself as a ransom for all (pas) men, the testimony given in its proper time.

*** 1 Tim 4:10 (and for this we labor and strive), that we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all (pas) men, and especially (malista) of those who believe.
Malista: chiefly, most of all, specially

*** 2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slow in keeping His promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, (has not predetermined that) but everyone (pas) to come to repentance.

*** 1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole (holos) world. Holos: all, all together, every whit, throughout, whole

Rev 22:17 Whosoever wishes, (let him) take the water of life freely. [eternal life is a free gift] and it is potential; in other words, man has free will to believe or reject God’s promise of eternal life through Christ.

*** 1 John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent His Son to be the Savior of the world.

1 Cor 7:23: You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. [believers]

2 Pet 2:1: But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. [unbelievers]

The Greek word for “bought” is the same in both verses, ‘agorazo’

Notice exactly WHO has been bought by the blood of the Lord Jesus Christ:

1 Cor 7:23: You were bought with a price; do not become slaves of men. [believers]

2 Pet 2:1: But false prophets also arose among the people, just as there will also be false teachers among you, who will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the Master who bought them, bringing swift destruction upon themselves. [unbelievers]

The Greek word for “bought” is the same in both verses, ‘agorazo’

Scripture is very clear: Jesus Christ died for everyone. Not just "some".
No you have no right to tell anyone Christ died for them, they may not be one of His Sheep. Then you have lied to them.
 
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Since you make faith/believing actions performed by the unregenerate resulting in their eternal salvation, thats salvation by works, by reward, for performing your action. Thats totally 100% against Grace.
I wish you Calvinist types could read better. It ISN'T one's action of believing that CAUSES salvation. It is God who CAUSES salvation.

Why can't you grasp this? It is very simple. But the problem is your Calvinist bias, which prevents truth from getting into your skull.
 
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Why do you keep saying this silliness? I've NEVER said He did. So why are you making this up?

I did say that Christ died for everyone, because the Bible says it. However, His dying doesn't save anyone, though most believers have been very poorly taught and think His death is what saves us. No, it isn't. Show me the verse that teaches this.

Rather, it is God Himself who saves. And He is pleased to "save those who believe", per 1 Cor 1:21.

I strongly reject universalism as a heresy. So quit trying to put words in my mouth.
Its the Truth, everyone God didnt chose for Salvation, and its silly to suppose so.
 
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No you have no right to tell anyone Christ died for them, they may not be one of His Sheep. Then you have lied to them.
Go read post 451 where I PROVED from the Bible that Christ died for everyone.

You believe a very false doctrine.

And you CAN'T quote any verse that shows that Christ's death was ONLY for some, regardless of the wording. I DARE you.
 
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Go read post 451 where I PROVED from the Bible that Christ died for everyone.

You believe a very false doctrine.

And you CAN'T quote any verse that shows that Christ's death was ONLY for some, regardless of the wording. I DARE you.
You may tell people Christ died for His Sheep Jn 10, or His Church Eph 5:25 but for every single individual, you or myself have no right to tell anyone that.
 
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Its the Truth, everyone God didnt chose for Salvation, and its silly to suppose so.
Those that God didn't choose for salvation are those who NEVER believed in His Son.

How do I know this? The Bible tells me so.

John 3:18 - Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son.

2 Thess 2:12 - and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

Both of these verses say the same thing. Condemnation is for those who "have not believed", which means "never believed".

Salvation is never about God choosing who to saved unconditionally. The Bible is very clear that salvation is by believing in the Son which IS a condition.

You have been taught false doctrine. That is why you can't understand the truth when it is presented to you.
 
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You may tell people Christ died for His Sheep Jn 10, or His Church Eph 5:25 but for every single individual, you or myself have no right to tell anyone that.
I prefer to tell people what the Bible says about it. I reject your false doctrine.

btw, since you mention John 10, Jesus NEVER said that He would die for "His" sheep. He said several times that He would die for THE sheep, in a context where He noted there are THE sheep, and HIS sheep. But do you see the contrast or difference?

Jesus NEVER said He would die for some. Nor does the Bible say that. He died for all. And not "all kinds of." That would be ridiculous.

unless there is clear context for "all" to refer to less than the whole world, it DOES mean the whole world.

Just like 1 John 2:2 - He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

I know what Calvinists will claim. That the word "world" only means "world of the elect".

Yet, there is NO verse where there is any context to conclude that idea. So Calvinism merely makes stuff up to fit their theology.

If you can't support a claim with a verse that SAYS what you claim, then just don't make claims.