Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[Sipsey]

What is perfect faithfulness? Jesus said all you need is a mustard seed and His yoke is easy and burden is light. I didn't realize you thought faith was a grueling task comparable to keeping the 600+ laws of Moses. Jesus seems to disagree.

Perfection is God’s standard. The Law illustrates the necessary righteousness, again perfect. If He accepts anything less, then He is going against His own standards. I would think if someone says something along the lines of, “We are saved by grace, but.” Or that we must persevere in some impossible human way, then they are discounting imputed righteousness, and relying on human actions, aside from what God has already provided.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

I'll be honest, I'd like to answer your question but I can't even begin to comprehend your logic. So, sorry, I don't have an answer for that.

I've asked the question and it seems Romans 11:29 is the best anyone can come up with, and it isn't even talking about our salvation. So go ahead, keep throwing up walls of scripture that make it look like you know something. You had your chance.

so you can't imagine when jesus himself says what he said in John 6 that what he said is not true?

Remember Jesus said this

35 And Jesus said to them, “I am the bread of life. He who comes to Me shall never hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst.

Do you really believe that after one comes to jesus that they can hunger and thirst when jesus said they will NEVER?

37 All that the Father gives Me will come to Me, and the one who comes to Me I will [f]by no means cast out.

Do you really believe that the father gave Christ people who will be cast out?

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

Do you really believe that the one who is given to Christ, because they see and believe in him will ever NOT have everlasting life and may not get risen on the last day?

47 Most assuredly, I say to you, he who believes in Me has everlasting life. 48 I am the bread of life. 49 Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and are dead. 50 This is the bread which comes down from heaven, that one may eat of it and not die. 51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever; and the bread that I shall give is My flesh, which I shall give for the life of the world.”

do you really believe that anyone who through faith eats this bread from heaven can still die under any circumstance when jesus said they will never die, and they will live forever?

57 As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me. 58 This is the bread which came down from heaven—not as your fathers ate the manna, and are dead. He who eats this bread will live forever.”

do you really believe that jesus lives because of the father, so we who eat will live because of him, can ever die as long as christ lives? He says they will live forever.. are you saying they can still die

can you see why I can not comprehend your logic in saying that these promises that Jesus made to ANYONE who eats this food can still die?

what makes that logic any different than the roman catholic who thinks this flesh is the eucharist which must be eaten all the time (weekly) and yet even after one eats it, they can still die (suffer the second death)

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Ok, let's assume OSAS is true. According to OSAS, saying a 30 seconds sinner's prayer like: "Lord Jesus, I repent of my sins. I accept You as my Lord and Savior. Please forgive me and come into my heart by Your Spirit" is enough to go to Heaven for all eternity. Now, nothing wrong with the sinner's prayer. I've said it myself many times and led others to say it also. Yet, it doesn't stop there. After that, one must be Baptized, if never Baptized, or start living a Christian life again if one fell away. Receive Communion, read the Bible, fellowship with other believers, love God and neighbor, forgive one another etc.

But here's the thing: suppose OSAS is objectively true, then also us NON-OSASers are already saved, and nothing we can ever do or not, according to OSAS, can change that. And if so, then NON-OSASers lose nothing anyway, and are also already saved.

And suppose it is true that sins now cause us to lose only rewards, and not salvation, even so, why suffer loss and lose the rewards, and be saved only through fire (as 1 Cor 3:15) says, which means to be saved in a painful way after the Lord's discipline? Much better to labor much for the Lord, in Prayer, Fasting, Almsgiving, Evangelism etc, Martyrdom if necessary, and other good works, in order, as 2 Pet 1 says, not only to go to Heaven, but also to secure a rich welcome/reward there.

Again, what do non-OSASers lose, objectively speaking, even if OSAS were true?

Meanwhile, if OSAS is not true, then those who recognize that have many advantages.

In the end, every Christian, OSAS or non OSAS, hopes God's Grace will help us persevere in the Faith and in love until death. God Bless.

No one is saved because they said a 30 second sinners prayer

when will you people look at the truth of what most of the people who believe in eternal security says and stop assuming things like you keep assuming

I understand your fight againt licentiousness or easy believism, but what good is it if you fight the true gospel of grace with legalism.

the lagalist will no more be saved than the licentious. don;t reject grace because you fear licentiousness. The true gospel of grace rejects a licentious gospel

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

and yet the context says they believed, that includes Judas. Though he was a betrayer, it can't be said he was an unbeliver.

John 6:66-71KJV
66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

No, it never said judas believed.

Peter said we,, Because he did not know at the time Judas was the one who would betray him, no one did

The rest of the passage is clear. whoever eats that bread will never die, live forever, never hunger or thirst. be risen on the last day and never be lost

If judas eat that bread, then he is saved today.. He did not eat that bread because he never believed

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

If you question the doctrine because there are other verses that you are trying to reconcile with this doctrine they will

I would like to talk about the common salvation just as Jude said but instead we have to be derailed and focus on two verses in the NT to the exclusion and dismissal of all others.

3 Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

1. accuse you of Pride (#1,258)

9 Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.

The bible tells us explicitly to not speak insults to brothers and sisters.

2. Explain away the problematic verse (#1,256, 1,216)

Jude 5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

I subscribe to eternal salvation and I embrace the verses they quote and I have told them so. The problem with this doctrine is they focus on two verses and ignore what Jude is saying here. I will not do that.

3. Dismiss the harm from their teaching (#1,250)

Jude 4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

They don't deny that these lascivious men use this doctrine.

4. Phony baloney doctrines (#1,246, 1,236)

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire. 8 Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

No one can deny that we are seeing this today in churches that have Drag queen shows. That is but one example of the depravity taking place by those who despise the Lord Jesus and the word of God. However, it seems to me that one other constant with all the apostate churches is OSAS.

5. When asked for a verse that says what they are saying they can’t provide it and so say “you need to connect the dots” (#1,245, #1,243)

12 These are spots in your feasts of charity, when they feast with you, feeding themselves without fear: clouds they are without water, carried about of winds; trees whose fruit withereth, without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots; 13 Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

All we ask is a verse that clearly says what they say it says. This doctrine is a cloud without water. I know many genuine believers hold to this doctrine, but so do all the FreeMason phony baloney pastors. Show me an apostate church that is described by these verses and it seems they are always teaching OSAS.

6. Make false accusations like saying that we are claiming Jesus' promise is invalid (#1,240)

15 To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him. 16 These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.

Once again I will repeat for the fourth time at least, I embrace all these verses and do believe the Bible teaches that once you are justified by faith that will not be taken away. However, I refuse to teach OSAS because it totally ignores, diminishes, or explains away much of the Bible. They ignore sanctification and glorification with this doctrine.

7. Even they admit there are caveats to their doctrine which they would never know the answer to (#1,237, 1,232, 1,222)

No one knows what it means to "suffer loss" or what it means to be "cast out into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth". No one knows who is truly saved and who isn't. No one is the judge, only Jesus is. No one will be able to use this doctrine OSAS as a defense when they have to stand before the Lord Jesus.

yet here you are trying to earn the gift of salvation with your works, and your self righteousness.

The pharisees crucified christ because he rejected their legalsim.. Whats sad is you can not see your just like them.. not only in your gospel of religion and works. but in your pride to refuse to see what they refused to see

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Faith isn't a gift. The verses you provided say faith is a work that we do.

We need to get this right before we try to precede further

The verses I gave made no such claim, It said it is THE WORK OF GOD that we believe

It did not say it was our work

first, they asked, what work must we do

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

His reply that it is not our work, but HIS WORK.

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Agreed, but I think we are understanding the Bible differently. I pay close attention to grammar and this is what the passage says:

John 6
39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all those he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40For my Father’s will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise them up at the last day.”

The word "believes" here is in the Present Participle Active tense. That means 10 years later you must be believing in God's Son, then, too. We are always currently in the present and must always be believing in Jesus in the present. Jesus didn't mean to believe in Him one time for a few minutes then stop and you're still good to go; the believing must continue, actively, in order to have eternal life.

This actually matters. A lot. I see this is a reoccurring problem for OSAS. They are ignoring some very fine, but critical, details.

why would you ignore the rest of what Jesus said in this verse.

about eating the food. and once you eat. you will never die

if we ate the food and believed today, it is promised we will never die, we will live forever and we have eternal life

if it were possible to stop believing ten days from now. and we die. well then the promise that whoever eats will never die. is a false promise, and Jesus is seen as a liar.

believe is a present tense. Jesus is telling them, AND US TODAY, that if we have ever been in a state of belief, we will recieve the things he said.

 

[ZNP]

Are there really only two choices, saved by faith or saved by works?

One of the main reasons the OSAS crowd clutches this doctrine is they think there are only two options, OSAS or saved by works and they know you aren't saved by works. This is foolishness.

We were in a pit, we could not get out of that pit unless Jesus rescued us, that is what He did by shedding His blood on the cross. He rescued us by paying the price for us which was His blood. We could not pay that price because we didn't have sinless blood.

However, that is only the first step of the Christian life. What the Lord has done is eternal, the price He has paid is sufficient for any and all sins. However, you have to choose to received this.

But if you do receive this by faith it doesn't mean you will just sit their lifeless and dead. Paul says that Abraham was justified when He believed God, James says that faith without works is dead, being alone. Abraham was also justified by works when he offered up Isaac. At that point God said now I know you are faithful.

Look at Hebrews 11 -- by faith Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice -- that is a work that accompanies faith.

Enoch was translated -- raptured, that was a testimony that he had faith.

Without faith it is impossible to please God, but clearly look at Abel and Enoch with faith it is possible to please God.

By faith Noah prepared an Ark. That is a work of faith.

By faith Abraham left his home and followed God when he was called out.

In every case faith is accompanied by something that we can see. This is why James says he will show you his faith by his works. James also says by works faith is made perfect.

Now here is the kicker, James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Everlasting-Grace wants to make this an either or, either you are saved by faith or you are saved by works. James says it is both.

We are justified and redeemed solely by the Lord's work on the cross, we had nothing to do with that and could have nothing to do with that.

But we are also saved by faith and that faith is made perfect by our works and we are now talking about sanctification and glorification. If you don't have this then you will suffer loss and be saved so as through fire. You will not reign with Christ. Maybe you will escape condemnation, but not much else.

 

[Runningman]

No it doesn't. Peter didn't know everyone's heart, and he only assumed that all 12 believed. But in 6:64 John included Judas in the phrase about who didn't believe.

6:64 - Yet there are some of you who do not believe.” For Jesus had known from the beginning which of them did not believe and who would betray him.


Yes it can. If Judas had believed, he would have been given the gift of eternal life that Jesus spoke of in John 5;24 and 10:28. So you calling Jesus a LIAR as well?


Peter's opinion. Not a fact.

Peter's opinion trumps your opinion. Peter knew Judas personally. I'm pretty sure he knew what he was talking about and Jesus didn't say he was wrong. Peter said "we believe" as in himself and the 12 apostles, Judas included. Facts.

 

[Runningman]

Perfection is God’s standard. The Law illustrates the necessary righteousness, again perfect. If He accepts anything less, then He is going against His own standards. I would think if someone says something along the lines of, “We are saved by grace, but.” Or that we must persevere in some impossible human way, then they are discounting imputed righteousness, and relying on human actions, aside from what God has already provided.

I agree and God asked for our faith. I would say it's pretty difficult to lose genuine faith, if that's any consolation. I know my mother is real; I've seen her, I've talked to her, and I'll never forget her. I can't disbelieve in her. In like manner, I have experienced God. I have received confirmation the Bible is true and Jesus is, in fact, the Son of God.

 

[Runningman]

No, it never said judas believed.

Peter said we,, Because he did not know at the time Judas was the one who would betray him, no one did

The rest of the passage is clear. whoever eats that bread will never die, live forever, never hunger or thirst. be risen on the last day and never be lost

If judas eat that bread, then he is saved today.. He did not eat that bread because he never believed

These fine details actually matter because they actually determine when the action is completed or if there is anything else they need to do. So let me look at this here. Below, the operative words is "eats." If this does not happen, they will not live forever. This word is active without any discernible end and that's how it would be understood in English. That's also what it means in Greek because it's in the aorist tense. Aorist tense means there is no reference to the action ever stopping. One must never stop eating this bread (believing in Jesus) to have eternal life.

This is what aorist tense means:
an unqualified past tense of a verb without reference to duration or completion of the action.

John 6:51
51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

 

[Runningman]

We need to get this right before we try to precede further

The verses I gave made no such claim, It said it is THE WORK OF GOD that we believe

It did not say it was our work

first, they asked, what work must we do

28 Then they said to Him, “What shall we do, that we may work the works of God?”

His reply that it is not our work, but HIS WORK.

29 Jesus answered and said to them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in Him whom He sent.”

God was working to convince them, but He wasn't forcing belief on anyone. I don't subscribe to unconditional election, I hope you don't either. The work they are required to do is believe and if they didn't they'll perish. The context is clear about that.

 

[Runningman]

why would you ignore the rest of what Jesus said in this verse.

about eating the food. and once you eat. you will never die

if we ate the food and believed today, it is promised we will never die, we will live forever and we have eternal life

if it were possible to stop believing ten days from now. and we die. well then the promise that whoever eats will never die. is a false promise, and Jesus is seen as a liar.

believe is a present tense. Jesus is telling them, AND US TODAY, that if we have ever been in a state of belief, we will recieve the things he said.

I believe I probably answered this in a different post, maybe #1,291, but if I didn't will you please show me the verse you're talking about?

 

[Runningman]

What I am seeing, and I am not a grammar snob, but the grammar in all of the alleged proof-verses for OSAS actually keep debunking OSAS. A continual belief seems to be required. If one stops believing, it appears all bets are off.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

These fine details actually matter because they actually determine when the action is completed or if there is anything else they need to do. So let me look at this here. Below, the operative words is "eats." If this does not happen, they will not live forever. This word is active without any discernible end and that's how it would be understood in English. That's also what it means in Greek because it's in the aorist tense. Aorist tense means there is no reference to the action ever stopping. One must never stop eating this bread (believing in Jesus) to have eternal life.

This is what aorist tense means:
an unqualified past tense of a verb without reference to duration or completion of the action.

John 6:51
51I am the living bread that came down from heaven. Whoever eats this bread will live forever. This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

there is a major problem with this view

Jesus said it is unlike their fathers, who ate manna in the desert.. if they did not keep eating, they would die

Unlike that, whoever eats this bread will live forever.

what good is something in its ability to make it so you never hunger and or thirst if you have to keep eating it, or more importantly, if after you eat it, you can start to hunger or thirst again.

remember, Jesus starts this conversation with the following statement

27 Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to everlasting life, which the Son of Man will give you, because God the Father has set His seal on Him.”

the word endures because it never loses its power to give, unlike the food they were seeking which would lose their power. forcing them to continue to eat.

remember, the verb endure is present active also. it does not mean because it is only present it will ever stop enduring.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Are there really only two choices, saved by faith or saved by works?

One of the main reasons the OSAS crowd clutches this doctrine is they think there are only two options, OSAS or saved by works and they know you aren't saved by works. This is foolishness.

We were in a pit, we could not get out of that pit unless Jesus rescued us, that is what He did by shedding His blood on the cross. He rescued us by paying the price for us which was His blood. We could not pay that price because we didn't have sinless blood.

However, that is only the first step of the Christian life. What the Lord has done is eternal, the price He has paid is sufficient for any and all sins. However, you have to choose to received this.

But if you do receive this by faith it doesn't mean you will just sit their lifeless and dead. Paul says that Abraham was justified when He believed God, James says that faith without works is dead, being alone. Abraham was also justified by works when he offered up Isaac. At that point God said now I know you are faithful.

Look at Hebrews 11 -- by faith Abel offered a more excellent sacrifice -- that is a work that accompanies faith.

Enoch was translated -- raptured, that was a testimony that he had faith.

Without faith it is impossible to please God, but clearly look at Abel and Enoch with faith it is possible to please God.

By faith Noah prepared an Ark. That is a work of faith.

By faith Abraham left his home and followed God when he was called out.

In every case faith is accompanied by something that we can see. This is why James says he will show you his faith by his works. James also says by works faith is made perfect.

Now here is the kicker, James 2:24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.

Everlasting-Grace wants to make this an either or, either you are saved by faith or you are saved by works. James says it is both.

We are justified and redeemed solely by the Lord's work on the cross, we had nothing to do with that and could have nothing to do with that.

But we are also saved by faith and that faith is made perfect by our works and we are now talking about sanctification and glorification. If you don't have this then you will suffer loss and be saved so as through fire. You will not reign with Christ. Maybe you will escape condemnation, but not much else.

Yes

it is grace or works, there is no other option

if it is of grace it is no longer of works, otherwise grace is no longer grace

if it is of works, it is no longer of grace otherwise work is no longer works. it can not be both, it has to be one or the other

Paul makes it clear. we are saved by GRACE THROUGH FAITH.. not of work

so faith is included in grace. works is not.

James 2 does not support your works based theology. James is demanding these people who were hearers only and not doers to TEST their OWN FAITH. If they CLAIM TO HAVE FAITH, but HAVE NO WORKS, can their faith save them?

no. why?

because as Paul said, we are saved by grace through faith and those who are saved will do the works prepaired for them.. Works are a byproduct of faith, not added to faith

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Peter's opinion trumps your opinion. Peter knew Judas personally. I'm pretty sure he knew what he was talking about and Jesus didn't say he was wrong. Peter said "we believe" as in himself and the 12 apostles, Judas included. Facts.

Peter did not even Know judas was going to betray jesus, he was as shocked as the rest of them when Jesus told them all one of them would betray him that night.

why are you fighting this??

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

God was working to convince them, but He wasn't forcing belief on anyone. I don't subscribe to unconditional election, I hope you don't either. The work they are required to do is believe and if they didn't they'll perish. The context is clear about that.

I never said God forced anyone

just posted what Jesus said

our faith is NOT our work, it is the work of God

no one will come to faith without God bringing them to faith.. God can work the same in two people. one can say yes, the other can say no

The one who said yes did not do a work, he said yes to Gods work

the one who said no simply rejected the work of God. not only onb the cross. But in their life

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

What I am seeing, and I am not a grammar snob, but the grammar in all of the alleged proof-verses for OSAS actually keep debunking OSAS. A continual belief seems to be required. If one stops believing, it appears all bets are off.

If continuing belief is requried. no one has eternal life. they will not have eternal life UNTIL they die. because continual belief is required

jesus said the moment one believes, or better yet, the moment one sees and believes, they have eternal life

He never said those who believe and continue to believe until they die.. I do not think we should try to change jesus words. because there is no hope for anyone if we have to continue to do anything,, our hope is in self and our ability, not in God

 

[Magenta]

and yet the context says they believed, that includes Judas. Though he was a betrayer, it can't be said he was an unbeliver.

John 6:66-71KJV
66From that time many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 67Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God. 70Jesus answered them, Have not I chosen you twelve, and one of you is a devil? 71He spake of Judas Iscariot the son of Simon: for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.

Peter did not know the heart of Judas. Jesus, however, did. I'll stick with what Jesus said