Once saved always saved (OSAS) debunked

[ZNP]

Kicking the goads

Suppose someone does not subscribe to OSAS, what would that look like? It would look like someone who is working out their salvation in fear and trembling just like Paul said in Philippians.

Suppose someone did believe in OSAS but were wrong, what would that look like? It would look like 1Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Beware when anyone tells you that the warnings are figurative but the promises are literal.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Kicking the goads

Suppose someone does not subscribe to OSAS, what would that look like? It would look like someone who is working out their salvation in fear and trembling just like Paul said in Philippians.

Except Paul was referring to the issue of spirutal growth, and not working for eternal life, or getting into heaven.

Suppose someone did believe in OSAS but were wrong, what would that look like?[;/QUOTE]
It would look like the one who is proposing this doesn't believe the words of Jesus. OSAS cannot be wrong, since Jesus taught it.

It would look like 1Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Beware when anyone tells you that the warnings are figurative but the promises are literal.

Seems you are all over the map here. Why are you so resistant to the plain words of John 5:24 and 10:28?

Why, why why? That is the issue.

 

[ZNP]

lol. I never suggested that I did. I only speak for myself and what the Bible clearly says.

Everlasting-Grace said that.

My response was that he does not speak for you or for anyone else on this thread.

 

[ZNP]

Except Paul was referring to the issue of spirutal growth, and not working for eternal life, or getting into heaven.

Please fix your post so that I can respond to your words.

 

[Magenta]

Acts 10:43

 

[ResidentAlien]

Eph 2:8 says salvation is a gift of God.
Rom 11:29 says that the gifts of God are irrevocable.

Clear enough?

I already addressed this above. Where do either of these passages say salvation is irrevocable?

 

[Sipsey]

One thing is certain, God will never revoke His gift of grace to mankind. In other words, He won't say, "Alright people, I've changed my mind, the gift of salvation through my Son is off the table; I take it back."

But we can decide we no longer want to take advantage of it and abandon Christ.

Im a little confused by your assertion. Does that mean you view the book of Revelation as allegory?

 

[Snacks]

The context offers a bit more insight and I might add that some manuscripts omit verse 11, but I'll use the NKJV because it includes it. There's only rejoicing over the lost sheep who is found. This is referring to repentance like 2 Peter 3:9 says. Perishing would be the exact thing thing that happens to those who don't believe like John 3:16 says.

The context includes the possibility that this lost sheep may not be found: v.13 "...if he should find it"
The alternative to not being found is that the sheep perishes: v.14 "...it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish."

Matthew 18:10-14
10“Take heed that you do not despise one of these little ones, for I say to you that in heaven their angels always see the face of My Father who is in heaven. 11For the Son of Man has come to save that which was lost.
12“What do you think? If a man has a hundred sheep, and one of them goes astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine and go to the mountains to seek the one that is straying? 13And if he should find it, assuredly, I say to you, he rejoices more over that sheep than over the ninety-nine that did not go astray. 14Even so it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones should perish.

Jesus says He will never lose any who the Father has given Him.

 

[ResidentAlien]

Im a little confused by your assertion. Does that mean you view the book of Revelation as allegory?

LOL, first of all, I don't have the slightest idea what you're talking about. Second, I don't want to know. Third, I hate guessing games. Fourth. I don't have all to go 'round and 'round. Maybe you can find some who is at work and would rather be in here than working. Have fun.

 

[ZNP]

Why, why, why, that is the issue. -- FreeGrace2 #1,222

(I asked him to fix the post, he didn't so I'll just respond like this.)

The doctrine of OSAS has been abused. Maybe not by FreeGrace2 but it has been abused by FreeMason pastors who preach the prosperity gospel and OSAS. This is a doctrine of man and it is unnecessary. I prefer the doctrine of the apostles.

Man comes up with these doctrines because they are too lazy to read the word of God, even though we are told that man lives by the word of God. I don't like using a crutch.

There is no simple formula to life and this doctrine leads to simple formulas to the Christian life. People are deceived, they think that because they prayed some prayer 20 years ago they are saved, and now they go about their business. This is not true of everyone, but the fact that some eat this slop emboldens others who are weak in the faith and don't know the word to eat it as well and they are harmed.

The second problem is once you subscribe to a doctrine you must defend it to the end and that means explaining away verses as being figurative, or saying that verses discussing salvation don't matter, the only salvation that matters is the one you are talking about.

A Christian is saved to be the body and bride of Christ. Yet they admit that if you suffer loss and are saved through fire you will not reign with Christ. How exactly would you be the body and bride of Christ if you do not reign with Christ. Even if that isn't the lake of fire that sounds pretty horrible, like outer darkness and weeping and gnashing of teeth. Yet the OSAS crowd puts that in the fine print if they mention it at all.

The third problem is this just makes things complicated with useless wrangling. The simple answer to all of this is "Jesus is Lord", He will sort it all out. Your job is to stand on the blood of the lamb and be a witness.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Maybe you didn't comprehend my original question. I asked for a scripture, even one scripture that teaches that salvation is irrevocable. I'm still waiting.

So the words never die. live forever, eternal life. and a promise to be raised AFTER we do what Jesus said, is not proving that salvation is irrevocable or eternal in nature and will never stop???

As for irrevocable. I showed that too in my origional post

1. I showed the GIFT of God is life

Romans 5: 15 But the gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

romans 6: 23 - the penalty of sin is death, the GIFT of God is eternal life

and I showed that the gifts of God are irrevocable or will not be repented of

romans 11: 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

This is really helpful at confirming that "suffering loss" means they won't rule and reign and that you have to overcome and persevere in order to reign.

However, Paul said that they will be saved but so as through fire and they will suffer loss. We still haven't explained what kind of salvation that is.

once again

the loss is rewards.

gold silver precious stone, wood hay and straw.

Even if all they have left to show after their works are tried by fire (wood hay and straw are consumed in the fire) they will still be saved.. But they suffer loss

 

[ZNP]

Throw away the crutch

A personal testimony -- When my son started High School I was told he would need a para to walk around with him. I asked why and they said because he can't walk up stairs without holding the handrail. If he falls he could be hurt. (He had a very difficult birth and had to have three different therapists all the way through elementary school. We had eliminated the occupational and speech therapists by this time but still he had to have a physical therapist).

So what I did was I took him hiking up the Adirondack mountains. On one mountain he could not make it 200 yards. The very first hill was too icy and hard as he tried he could make it up. So, I took off by belt and tied it to my pack so he could hold onto it and we climbed that mountain that way. It was brutal, slippery, sliding the entire way. You had melt water over ice. But we made it to the top and we made it back down with almost no falls (I was the only one to fall).

After a couple of weeks of this school started and I asked that he be reevaluated. He passed and never had to have a para in high school.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

Kicking the goads

Suppose someone does not subscribe to OSAS, what would that look like? It would look like someone who is working out their salvation in fear and trembling just like Paul said in Philippians.

Suppose someone did believe in OSAS but were wrong, what would that look like? It would look like 1Corinthians 10:12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

Beware when anyone tells you that the warnings are figurative but the promises are literal.

What does it look like for someone who does not believe in eternal security?

It would look like this

I trust in Christ, But I must add to his works. I must do this and this and this and this.. and I must NOT do this that or the other thing
If I fail to do this, I will lose or forfiet my salvation,

it would look like this

3 O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you [a]that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed [b]among you as crucified? 2 This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? 4 Have you suffered so [many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain?

 

[ResidentAlien]

So the words never die. live forever, eternal life. and a promise to be raised AFTER we do what Jesus said, is not proving that salvation is irrevocable or eternal in nature and will never stop???

As for irrevocable. I showed that too in my origional post

1. I showed the GIFT of God is life

Romans 5: 15 But the gift is not like the offense. For if by the one man’s offense many died, much more the grace of God and the gift by the grace of the one Man, Jesus Christ, abounded to many. 16 And the gift is not like that which came through the one who sinned. For the judgment which came from one offense resulted in condemnation, but the gift which came from many offenses resulted in justification. 17 For if by the one man’s offense death reigned through the one, much more those who receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ.)
18 Therefore, as through one man’s offense judgment came to all men, resulting in condemnation, even so through one Man’s righteous act the gift came to all men, resulting in justification of life. 19 For as by one man’s disobedience many were made sinners, so also by one Man’s obedience many will be made righteous
20 Moreover the law entered that the offense might abound. But where sin abounded, grace abounded much more, 21 so that as sin reigned in death, even so grace might reign through righteousness to eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

romans 6: 23 - the penalty of sin is death, the GIFT of God is eternal life

and I showed that the gifts of God are irrevocable or will not be repented of

romans 11: 29 For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

You like to throw a lot of scriptures up. Let's keep this simple and to the point, if that's possible. Just show me one scripture that demonstrates beyond question that salvation is irrevocable, and explain why you believe that's what it says.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The book of Life


Philippians 4:3 And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life.

Revelation 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

These two verses talk about people whose names are written in the book of life. In both cases it is believers in the church. It would not make sense to say that Paul's fellow laborers had their names written in the book of life if everyone does, that would be like saying my fellow laborers breathe air.

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Never once are we told in the New Testament that unbelievers have their name written in the book of life.

This unbiblical teaching of Everlasting-Grace reminds me of what some teachers tell their kids on day 1 of school, they say everyone is starting at 100. That is baloney. I told them everyone is starting at 0. You have done 0 you have 0. Every assignment you do, every test you take, these things will add to your score. When you tell kids they are starting at 100 they then look at everything they do as bringing their grade down, that is not true, everything you do brings your grade up. Even if you fail a test and get a 50. If you don't take the test you get a 0.

Thats your problem.

at no time is ANYONE names said to be WRITTEN in the book of life

But scripture DOES SAY that one can have their names BLOTTED from the book of life

How can an unbeliever have their name blotted from the book if it was not written.

My friend, Your so busy trying to tear holes into a belief you do not like you are starting to make mental errors trying to support your theories

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

One thing is certain, God will never revoke His gift of grace to mankind. In other words, He won't say, "Alright people, I've changed my mind, the gift of salvation through my Son is off the table; I take it back."

But we can decide we no longer want to take advantage of it and abandon Christ.

why would a person who has become bankrupt in spirit. Confessed of his total sinfullness, Confess he is headed to an eternity apart from God because of his sin, Confess he can do absolutely NOTHING to make up for the wrongs that he has done, that he is totally lost and in need of a savior. Who like the tax collector gets on their knees, unable to even look up and crys out for Gods mercy, ever repent of every believing these things, and placing their faith in the only one who could save them?

Unless they did not really confess or believe the things he claimed he confessed in?

 

[ZNP]

You like to throw a lot of scriptures up. Let's keep this simple and to the point, if that's possible. Just show me one scripture that demonstrates beyond question that salvation is irrevocable, and explain why you believe that's what it says.

Yes is there a verse in the NT that says that God would not be righteous if you were not saved.

Romans 10:13 Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

This is a promise and it would be unrighteous to violate this promise. However, it is a bad translation.

The first use of this word in the New Testament is Matthew 10:3 and refers to the surname of the apostles.

This verse means that you are surnamed with the name of the Lord. So it really means whoever allows themself to be called by the name of the Lord shall be saved.

That means you, like Sarah, say that Jesus is Lord. It is also future tense, not present tense.

Anyone who is discarding Bible verses, ignoring Bible verses, and justifying that is not calling Jesus Lord.

 

[ZNP]

Thats your problem.

at no time is ANYONE names said to be WRITTEN in the book of life

But scripture DOES SAY that one can have their names BLOTTED from the book of life

How can an unbeliever have their name blotted from the book if it was not written.

My friend, Your so busy trying to tear holes into a belief you do not like you are starting to make mental errors trying to support your theories

The New Testament never says an unbeliever can have his name blotted out.

 

[Everlasting-Grace]

The Fundamental flaw in OSAS

Jesus is Lord.

When they tell you that your name being erased from the book of life is not referring to losing your salvation, that is their interpretation. But that means 0 because Jesus is Lord. Jesus decides who goes into the lake of fire and who doesn't.

When they tell you that this person who turned back was never saved, that is their interpretation. They don't know men's hearts, only God does.

The fundamental flaw in OSAS is that you aren't the Lord. Jesus is Lord. When you appear before the throne that doctrine will be worth 0. That doctrine doesn't save you, Jesus saves you.

They admit the real question is whether or not Jesus says "I never knew you". Nowhere in the NT does it say the fundamental question is "do you subscribe to OSAS".

Your right, Jesus decides

This is what Jesus said about it

John 3: 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should [c]not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.


18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

Condemned already, that means they remain in a state of condemnation. Not that they were recondemned because they lost faith

39 This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 40 And this is the will of Him who sent Me, that everyone who sees the Son and believes in Him may have everlasting life; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

He will LOSE NOTHING

According to you. He will lose people. because his promise is invalid