RAPTURE
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I thought we had been stuying 1 Thes 4. How many times must we go over it?
Parousia (second Coming) Vs 15 and
Harpazo (the catching up) Vs 17 are inextricably linked in this passage of scripture.
Still not admitting that Jesus revealed from heaven with angels. in flaming fire. taking vengeance.
Is the second coming of Jesus? I am posting it yet again in your KJV. This is what Paul told the church to look for.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
Parousia (second Coming) Vs 15 and
Harpazo (the catching up) Vs 17 are inextricably linked in this passage of scripture.
Still not admitting that Jesus revealed from heaven with angels. in flaming fire. taking vengeance.
Is the second coming of Jesus? I am posting it yet again in your KJV. This is what Paul told the church to look for.
7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
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The Bible is very clear that the Church meets the Lord in the air and is married to Jesus in Heaven and then returns with Him to Earth for the Millennial reign. The Church is never referenced as going through the trib on Earth. The trib saints are those who did not receive Jesus until after the rapture. Many will be Jewish and many will be beheaded. This is what the Bible says. Many of you are familiar with the Scripture, but ignore the parts that counter their denominational distinctives (errors). Take time to read 1 Thess 4 and Rev 19 before you reply. Our wedding takes place in Heaven and before the return to Earth.
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Good Morning Brother oyster67,
Amen to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Please pay special attention to verse 16 which states:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first."
No raptured Saints are in Heaven in 1 Thessalonians or 2 Thessalonians.
Please provide the scripture where there are Saints that have been raptured and are in Heaven worshipping the Lamb.
Amen to 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
Please pay special attention to verse 16 which states:
"For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God.
And the dead in Christ will rise first."
No raptured Saints are in Heaven in 1 Thessalonians or 2 Thessalonians.
Please provide the scripture where there are Saints that have been raptured and are in Heaven worshipping the Lamb.
All these things take place after the Rapture. Jesus begins to take vengeance before the Second Coming (Trib Judgements), but after the Rapture.
As many times as it takes. God put us here to teach each other patience.
Yes. I have looked at 2 Thess 1 and cannot locate your magic bullet.
Absolutely.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
At the Rapture, Jesus comes and takes us up. You can call that the Second Coming if you prefer to, but most are referring to our return with Jesus when they say, "Second Coming". Most refer to Jesus coming to the Clouds as the Rapture because He is not coming to Earth yet. Most of the OT prophecies refer to the time when Jesus will return to Earth as King and begin to rule on Earth. He is Coming to Earth the Second time.
Please don't get frustrated by me. This is good for us.
As many times as it takes. God put us here to teach each other patience.
The above ^ is about 2 Thes 1 Not 1 Thes 4 Apologies to Oyster
Apologies to Oyster
Absolutely.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
At the Rapture, Jesus comes and takes us up. You can call that the Second Coming if you prefer to, but most are referring to our return with Jesus when they say, "Second Coming". Most refer to Jesus coming to the Clouds as the Rapture because He is not coming to Earth yet. Most of the OT prophecies refer to the time when Jesus will return to Earth as King and begin to rule on Earth. He is Coming to Earth the Second time.
Please don't get frustrated by me. This is good for us.
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You said: "The Bible is very clear that the Church meets the Lord in the air and is married to Jesus in Heaven and then returns with Him to Earth for the Millennial reign."
Please provide the "very clear" scriptures that validate your statement/belief - thank you
*** Validated Truth *** = 1 Thess 4:13-18 states very clearly that the Resurrection of the (dead in Christ) Saints occurs BEFORE the rapture.
Please provide the "very clear" scriptures that validate your statement/belief - thank you
*** Validated Truth *** = 1 Thess 4:13-18 states very clearly that the Resurrection of the (dead in Christ) Saints occurs BEFORE the rapture.
I would be gald glad to.
1 Thessalonians 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Revelation 19
4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. 5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. 6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
1 Thessalonians 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Revelation 19
4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. 5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. 6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
I would be gald glad to.
1 Thessalonians 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Revelation 19
4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. 5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. 6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
1 Thessalonians 4
13But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope. 14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
Revelation 19
4And the four and twenty elders and the four beasts fell down and worshipped God that sat on the throne, saying, Amen; Alleluia. 5And a voice came out of the throne, saying, Praise our God, all ye his servants, and ye that fear him, both small and great. 6And I heard as it were the voice of a great multitude, and as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of mighty thunderings, saying, Alleluia: for the Lord God omnipotent reigneth. 7Let us be glad and rejoice, and give honour to him: for the marriage of the Lamb is come, and his wife hath made herself ready.8And to her was granted that she should be arrayed in fine linen, clean and white: for the fine linen is the righteousness of saints. 9And he saith unto me, Write, Blessed are they which are called unto the marriage supper of the Lamb. And he saith unto me, These are the true sayings of God. 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. 11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Validated Truth #1 = There are Saints in Heaven which are all who have died in Christ just as it clearly states in these scriptures you posted.
Validated Truth #2 = There are no raptured Saints in Heaven in these scriptures you posted.
Please provide the scripture that would validate "raptured Saints in Heaven".
Thank You
All these things take place after the Rapture. Jesus begins to take vengeance before the Second Coming (Trib Judgements), but after the Rapture.
As many times as it takes. God put us here to teach each other patience.
Yes. I have looked at 2 Thess 1 and cannot locate your magic bullet.
Absolutely.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
At the Rapture, Jesus comes and takes us up. You can call that the Second Coming if you prefer to, but most are referring to our return with Jesus when they say, "Second Coming". Most refer to Jesus coming to the Clouds as the Rapture because He is not coming to Earth yet. Most of the OT prophecies refer to the time when Jesus will return to Earth as King and begin to rule on Earth. He is Coming to Earth the Second time.
Please don't get frustrated by me. This is good for us.
As many times as it takes. God put us here to teach each other patience.
Yes. I have looked at 2 Thess 1 and cannot locate your magic bullet.
Absolutely.
14For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. 15For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. 16For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: 17Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
At the Rapture, Jesus comes and takes us up. You can call that the Second Coming if you prefer to, but most are referring to our return with Jesus when they say, "Second Coming". Most refer to Jesus coming to the Clouds as the Rapture because He is not coming to Earth yet. Most of the OT prophecies refer to the time when Jesus will return to Earth as King and begin to rule on Earth. He is Coming to Earth the Second time.
Please don't get frustrated by me. This is good for us.
I'm calling the second coming, the main event. Christ is the focus. Not wedding frocks.
During the return of Jesus the resurrection & "rapture" are one of the events. It's simple.
The clouds, fire, victory & wedding of The King are described by the prophets. They are on earth and not pretribulation.
Heb 9:28 so Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin,
but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.
Amen! We, the Church, will indeed see Him at the Rapture. We all agree on this. He will bring Salvation to us, not Tribulation. We are awaiting the Rapture, not the Tribulation. See you in the sky, Lucy! (Please don't bring any diamonds.)
He will bring Salvation to us, not Tribulation. We are awaiting the Rapture, not the Tribulation. See you in the sky, Lucy! (Please don't bring any diamonds.)
Why did he ask us to endure to the end?
Why did he say after the tribulation if there would be not tribulation to endure?
And why did Jesus give The Revelation prophecies to The Church if we weren't going to be here?
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Dear Brother,
You have posted many words but have not brought forth a single scripture that confirms your claims of Saints being pre-trib raptured before HIS Coming and the Resurrection.
Please examine the Holy Scriptures below as They do not agree or in any way, confirm a pre-trib rapture.
Validated Truth = 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
v13 - But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
v14 - For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
v15 - For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
v16 - For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
v17 - AFTER that, we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
v18 - Therefore comfort one another with these words.
*** Also - you have not brought forth a single scripture proclaiming raptured Saints in Heaven.
Please validate your claims so that you may escape the judgment of bearing false witness.
There is no Peace or Security or Blessing in a lie = "no lie is of the truth" = 1 John 2:21
You have posted many words but have not brought forth a single scripture that confirms your claims of Saints being pre-trib raptured before HIS Coming and the Resurrection.
Please examine the Holy Scriptures below as They do not agree or in any way, confirm a pre-trib rapture.
Validated Truth = 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18
v13 - But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.
v14 - For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
v15 - For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep.
v16 - For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first.
v17 - AFTER that, we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air.
And thus we shall always be with the Lord.
v18 - Therefore comfort one another with these words.
*** Also - you have not brought forth a single scripture proclaiming raptured Saints in Heaven.
Please validate your claims so that you may escape the judgment of bearing false witness.
There is no Peace or Security or Blessing in a lie = "no lie is of the truth" = 1 John 2:21
Dear Brother oyster67,
You have made claims of "clear in scripture" and "evident in scripture".
If this is true, then please post the clear and evident scriptures that declare pre-trib rapture along with these pre-trib Saints as being raptured before the Resurrection and are found in Heaven in our LORD'S Revelation.
Thank You.
You have made claims of "clear in scripture" and "evident in scripture".
If this is true, then please post the clear and evident scriptures that declare pre-trib rapture along with these pre-trib Saints as being raptured before the Resurrection and are found in Heaven in our LORD'S Revelation.
Thank You.
The day that Jesus left here He said He'd return again to all those who look for Him, He'd return for them... love that song.
I listen but in the end I read and for me something happens to the Church after Rev 4.1. It never gets talked about again till what Rev 19? Even then stuff there I wonder is it really the Church? Some of the words if we look how they are org written and used else where in the word.. anyway. If we read Matt-Jude we find Christ before He goes up has prepared them and us to live to preach to teach to lead to witness so forth so on. Yet when we start to read about the great tribulation.. there's nothing. There is no "He will protect the Church". No nothing written at all like that. We know when Gods "wrath" happened in the OT Lot had to be gone "as long as you are here I can do nothing" He every said "hurry". It is odd no that GOD didn't just let him stay and protect him. Yet this time whats coming in on the whole world and all in it.
If we use the logic being said here. We get caught up with those dead in Christ to be with Him forever. Yes it does not say we then go to heaven. Ok flip it now.. nor does it say we return back to the earth. Oh man reminds me of that girl I kissed once. Sat in the truck and trying to be so nice saying sorry that was a mistake to here "does not mean God won't bring us together". Ended up saying "I don't like you that way I don't want you now or ever" to here back "does not mean God won't bring us together". She married someone else and is very happy praise GOD.
So this is where I wonder about what GOD said through Christ. Where is Christ? In heaven where He made us a place to live. Ok so when are with Him in heaven? He can't lie He said I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. <--- yeah we all know exactly what that means. Where I am you will be. Really? He then even says "where I go you know how I go you know". So we all know its in heaven. I then wonder about....
When do we go to the judgement seat of Christ bema? "We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. "
Just remember one thing you freely made the choice. He will never go against your will. Be wise.. you believe in post? Praise God but if He comes pre your ready now! lets not tell God just exactly how its going to happen we don't know.
I listen but in the end I read and for me something happens to the Church after Rev 4.1. It never gets talked about again till what Rev 19? Even then stuff there I wonder is it really the Church? Some of the words if we look how they are org written and used else where in the word.. anyway. If we read Matt-Jude we find Christ before He goes up has prepared them and us to live to preach to teach to lead to witness so forth so on. Yet when we start to read about the great tribulation.. there's nothing. There is no "He will protect the Church". No nothing written at all like that. We know when Gods "wrath" happened in the OT Lot had to be gone "as long as you are here I can do nothing" He every said "hurry". It is odd no that GOD didn't just let him stay and protect him. Yet this time whats coming in on the whole world and all in it.
If we use the logic being said here. We get caught up with those dead in Christ to be with Him forever. Yes it does not say we then go to heaven. Ok flip it now.. nor does it say we return back to the earth. Oh man reminds me of that girl I kissed once. Sat in the truck and trying to be so nice saying sorry that was a mistake to here "does not mean God won't bring us together". Ended up saying "I don't like you that way I don't want you now or ever" to here back "does not mean God won't bring us together". She married someone else and is very happy praise GOD.
So this is where I wonder about what GOD said through Christ. Where is Christ? In heaven where He made us a place to live. Ok so when are with Him in heaven? He can't lie He said I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. <--- yeah we all know exactly what that means. Where I am you will be. Really? He then even says "where I go you know how I go you know". So we all know its in heaven. I then wonder about....
When do we go to the judgement seat of Christ bema? "We must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, so that each of us may receive what is due us for the things done while in the body, whether good or bad. "
Just remember one thing you freely made the choice. He will never go against your will. Be wise.. you believe in post? Praise God but if He comes pre your ready now! lets not tell God just exactly how its going to happen we don't know.
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The Bible is for everyone. Not all will be ready.
Christians have always had to endure persecutions and tribulations, but we are overcomers in and through Christ. We have the glorious hope of the rapture to give us joy in times of trial.
Because there won't be.
The Revelation Prophecies are to warn everyone. The whole Bible is for everyone. This is like asking why the Bible mentions hell if the Church is not going there. God has not appointed us to wrath. Not in hell and not in the 7-year Tribulation where His wrath is poured out on the enemy.
Christians have always had to endure persecutions and tribulations, but we are overcomers in and through Christ. We have the glorious hope of the rapture to give us joy in times of trial.
Because there won't be.
The Revelation Prophecies are to warn everyone. The whole Bible is for everyone. This is like asking why the Bible mentions hell if the Church is not going there. God has not appointed us to wrath. Not in hell and not in the 7-year Tribulation where His wrath is poured out on the enemy.